The great divide

[Indianrock2020]

Seems there isn't much point in trying to convince people about gear.  Especially when it comes to the "gotta read the manual gear" versus the "just plug in and play gear."

 

I've seen this in so many forums.  Fact of the matter is that modeling can get you great tones, and a wider variety of tones than you could probably afford if you had to buy all the guitars, amps and pedals to do it the old way.

 

BUT, you have to read, study, tweak, ask questions, beg,  borrow and steal to do it.    So my first question when these debates come up is "are you the kind of person who will read, study, tweak, etc.

 

I play in a church that doesn't allow amps on stage or anywhere else, so the decisions are easier in our case.  I would guess that a majority of the live music played regularly in the U.S. is in churches of less than 500 members. ( and they are figuring out that uncontrolled amps on stage often lead to bad mixes and customer complaints )

[mcbeddall]

When I play gigs I often get get other guitarists asking about my gear as I've used modellers for the last 20 years through a PA speaker, and it amazes me how few of them know anything about the products out there

At a gig last year we supported a band and a few of their fans were ribbing their guitarist about how my ac30 sounded better than his real ac30, I know him and we had a laugh about it but he had no idea that I had 70 amps and over 100 effects in my little black box

[cruisinon2]

When I play gigs I often get get other guitarists asking about my gear as I've used modellers for the last 20 years through a PA speaker, and it amazes me how few of them know anything about the products out there

At a gig last year we supported a band and a few of their fans were ribbing their guitarist about how my ac30 sounded better than his real ac30, I know him and we had a laugh about it but he had no idea that I had 70 amps and over 100 effects in my little black box

You're right, and it's no surprise. If you hang a sign over any highway in this country that says: "Honk if you play guitar", every 3rd car is gonna honk at you...but how many of those people could fight their way through even the simplest of tunes without an embarrassing train wreck?

 

I've been teaching lessons for 20+ years...no matter how many students I have at a given time, the "magic number" who are any good is about 10%. So the fact that most fiddlers out there have no idea what gear even exists, does not surprise me at all.

[phil_m]

I guess I'm a combination of those two. I do think it's important to understand how whatever equipment you're using works, so reading the manual, at least for reference purposes, is important. I also think, though, that in order for gear to be fun to use, it's operation should be mostly self-evident to the average user. Meaning the labels on the knobs or on the face of the equipment should give them some basic understanding of the function. You shouldn't have to read a manual to learn how to do basic functions.

 

Personally, even when it comes to things not associated with music, I always feel the best way for me to learn how to do something is dive right in and start trying to figure it out on my own. Tutorials and manuals often seem hard to follow for me, but I think that's because I'm just a hands-on learner. Reading about a certain function seems very abstract for me.

 

The podcast 99% Invisible did a show on design and the transparency of intended function a few weeks ago. They use the example of a door that people can't tell to push or pull as an example of bad design. I think one reason many guitarists right off multi-fx and modeling is because they encountered early products that were very poorly designed from the user-interface side of things, so that's the association they jump to right away. They think if something has 70 different amp models or whatever, it has to be hard to use.

 

http://99percentinvisible.org/article/norman-doors-dont-know-whether-push-pull-blame-design/

[Charlie_Watt]

Good players can make any gear sound good!  There is a lot out there to choose from.  I really like my JTV because it can sound very different by just turning the modeling knob.  I don't think it takes any rocket science to use it either.

[cruisinon2]

I don't think it takes any rocket science to use it either.

Nope....but there are people out there, who are driven to hysterics over too many footwear choices in the closet. I've met plenty of players who want to plug in, turn 2 or 3 knobs, and call it a day. Don't know if it's laziness, or if they're afraid to learn anything new, but they're out there...

[Indianrock2020]

I can't speak to the JTV, yet.  But I can talk about my POD HD500x and I don't see how anyone is going to get good tones out of that right  out of the box.   For whatever reason the factory presets, I'm told ( never used one ) are there to demonstrate something ? ( to the 13 year-old shredder at Guitar Center ).  But in fairness with all the different guitars, amps etc you can't expect presets from the factory to appeal to very many people.

So, in my experience, there was a lot of reading these forums, checking out patches from others, etc etc etc. I'm not complaining and have now reached the point where I'm very happy with the tones I'm getting.  ( better than anything achieved with $800 worth of analog pedals, good guitars and modest tube amps.)

 

That's the great divide because on some Facebook forums as well as on the HD forums here, many are turned off right away because either they don't know how to proceed or just expect instant results.  

[Palico]

Good players can make any gear sound good!  

 

+1. I love the modelling technology and options it gives me. I love the sound of a good Plexi. But I can't afford an original or even reissue, nor do I want to haul it around to some of the places I play. The modelling gives me a good simulation of that and tons of pedals to play with without worrying about wire lengths,buffers vs. true bypass, line levels etc.... But the Achilles Heal of it all is option overload and worrying to much about accurate tone, instead of accurate playing.  Sometimes I miss the limitations of an amp, maybe a pedal or two and guitar, just making it work even when it didn't fit the song perfectly.

[Indianrock2020]

If you define "good player" as one who is willing to study, read, work and tweak, then yes they should be able to get tone from guitar, pedals and amp or modeling.  This also assumes all gear used is of at least average quality.

 

But there millions of "good players"  who WILL NOT study, read, work and tweak to the tune required by modeling in particular.

And it's those folks who keep saying modeling sucks.    "So this guy flies to Russia, gets off the plane and notices two drunk people in the airport lounge.  He gets on the plane home immediately without leaving the airport and tells his friends back home all Russians are drunks."      Same with the ignorant player who tried a multi-effect ten years ago for 3 minutes and continues to tell everyone they suck.

[Palico]

If you define "good player" as one who is willing to study, read, work and tweak, then yes they should be able to get tone from guitar, pedals and amp or modeling.  This also assumes all gear used is of at least average quality.

 

But there millions of "good players"  who WILL NOT study, read, work and tweak to the tune required by modeling in particular.

And it's those folks who keep saying modeling sucks.    "So this guy flies to Russia, gets off the plane and notices two drunk people in the airport lounge.  He gets on the plane home immediately without leaving the airport and tells his friends back home all Russians are drunks."      Same with the ignorant player who tried a multi-effect ten years ago for 3 minutes and continues to tell everyone they suck.

Very true. Musicians in particular guitarist can be a very judgmental group when it comes to gear.

 

There is something nice about gear you can just plug in and go and have a good tone. The POD is not one of them, although the learning curve is not that huge either. My point was, that I would much rather and I believe would be more beneficial, to spend most of my time working on my playing instead of working on learning gear. Although I totally agree that you have to know a bit about your gear to get the most from it and that does indeed mean some time researching it.

[clay-man]

Good players can make any gear sound good!  There is a lot out there to choose from.  I really like my JTV because it can sound very different by just turning the modeling knob.  I don't think it takes any rocket science to use it either.

 

If it sounds like complete crap, and you're anal about how it sounds, but then again, it's also personal preference. A crappy practice amp could sound great to someone and sound like garbage to another.

 

I have a honeytone pocket amp that sounds grating when the overdrive is on, but sounds nice if I put an Amplug in front of it for the overdrive instead. 

 

And don't forget the lovely Boss Metalzone pedal.

[ajcrowder]

...BUT, you have to read, study, tweak, ask questions, beg,  borrow and steal to do it.    So my first question when these debates come up is "are you the kind of person who will read, study, tweak, etc.

 

I play in a church that doesn't allow amps on stage or anywhere else, so the decisions are easier in our case.  I would guess that a majority of the live music played regularly in the U.S. is in churches of less than 500 members. ( and they are figuring out that uncontrolled amps on stage often lead to bad mixes and customer complaints )

I'm definitely one to study and tweak, less so read!  I work at a church of around 4,000 and we still had amp volume issues before.  After going to radial boxes running to amps offstage I finally tried an HD500X.  After a couple weeks of running it to an amp I tried going direct and haven't looked back.  I've since purchased a Helix and JTV69S and both electric players run direct now through the two boards.

 

Nothing will be as easy as plugging into an amp and fiddling with some knobs but you are absolutely right about having such a wide sonic palate to draw from with the modeling stuff.  More often than not, the people listening can't tell the difference anyway.  In fact, most guitar players can't either!