IR Of Real Mesa 2:90 Amp Into AT4 Recto V30 412 Cab

[roscoe5]

Up super late, but hopefully worth it.

 

I have captured an IR of real Mesa Simul 2:90 stereo power amp into an Amplitube AT4 Recto V30 cab.  I tested two patches, one with the IR against another with the same preamp and physical 2:90 in the Helix send/return 1 into my previous IR of the same AT4 V30 Recto cab and they sounded almost identical.  I also compared against the same Helix pre, physical 2:90, into the same cab in the AT4 Cab Room.  It was almost identical as well, not considering the bit of reverb you get from the "room" component and stereo dual mics.

 

Since the 2:90 power section is based on a Mark series amp, you really do get some Mesa Mark creaminess out of this IR.

 

I'll make a few more with combinations of the 2:90 Deep and Modern switches on, and maybe see what 1/2 Drive does.

 

Then I will probably move on to my Mesa 20/20 (EL84 tubes) and Marshall 100/100 (EL34 tubes).

 

I will attempt to capture an IR of the Mesa 2:90 with my real Recto 2x12 sometime this week hopefully.

 

This IR works really well with Helix or physical preamps, as well as Helix amps!!  You can try it with the Helix power amps, but it seems a little too thick to me with those.

 

Update 4/12/2016

 

Well, I tried my first run with my real Mesa 2:90 and real Recto 2x12 cab with a single SM57 and it came out odd and harsh.  Defeated by a real cab, I went back to real Mesa 2:90 and AT4 Cab Room.

 

This time I REALLY put the time in and refined the volume and presence settings on the Mesa 2:90 and went WAY deep in AT4 testing all of the mics, positions, dual mic interactions, room mics, levels, etc with the Mesa 2:90.  I must have made 100+ IR's tonight.  

 

The result is what I feel are the best IR's I've made so far, and I think unique from other sounds available in Helix or other IR's.  I think I've hit a sweet spot, at least for my own ear, with IR's from physical tube amps and virtual cabs and the Helix amps/preamps.  I went back to the first IR's I made with only Amplitube and these definitely sound different.

 

First attempt at a hybrid real Mesa 2:90 and virtual AT4 cab/mic

• Mesa 290 V30 Amp Cab_hx.wav

IR's with refined settings and levels on the real amp and virtual cabs/mics

• Mesa 290 Recto 57.wav - single SM57 and lots of direct bite 
• Mesa 290 Recto 57D, 57DM, & 57M.wav - same as the 57 with Deep and Modern switches on the 2:90 engage (really hardly any difference between the 4, but there they are)
• Mesa 290 Recto 57_57.wav - amazing the difference the second 57 makes, still has bite but fuller
• Mesa 290 Recto 57_Bottle.wav - now we are starting to sweeten things up with mic combinations, a little smoother sound
• Mesa 290 Recto 57_Rib.wav - my personal favorite IR now with the Helix Cali Rectifire amp block

 

Attached and Dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/009bkqzooza1aop/AADhgWBm3EfcN6205-IWaGZaa/IR?dl=0

Mesa 290 V30 Amp Cab_hx.wav

Mesa 290 Recto 57.wav

Mesa 290 Recto 57D.wav

Mesa 290 Recto 57DM.wav

Mesa 290 Recto 57M.wav

Mesa 290 Recto 57_57.wav

Mesa 290 Recto 57_Bottle.wav

Mesa 290 Recto 57_Rib.wav

[willjrock]

This will be cool to see how much alike our 2:90s sound...or at least the IR.

 

So dude forgive my ignorance, but you HAVE used your Helix to preamp the 2:90 then? as well as the amp switching i see.

 

One live set-up i often use is POD 2.0 > 2:90 > 4x12 cab and i havent made it that far yet with the Helix. It looks like you have, and i was wondering how the Helix does as a pre in this set-up? Sound wise.

[roscoe5]

This will be cool to see how much alike our 2:90s sound...or at least the IR.

 

So dude forgive my ignorance, but you HAVE used your Helix to preamp the 2:90 then? as well as the amp switching i see.

 

One live set-up i often use is POD 2.0 > 2:90 > 4x12 cab and i havent made it that far yet with the Helix. It looks like you have, and i was wondering how the Helix does as a pre in this set-up? Sound wise.

My favorite setup out of all the gear i own so far is Helix preamp to Mesa 2:90 to Recto 2x12. But note the closest thing to FRFR I have tried are JBL Eon 515xt's.

 

Now I am attempting to get that same 2:90/recto cab sound and interaction in an IR.

 

Since everything I have run into the real amplitube cab room has sounded great (Helix amps, my real preamps, my real amps into a reactive load), I am using Amplitube to hone my IR chops and ear without torturing others in my house, neighbors, etc. with real cabs.

[willjrock]

My favorite setup out of all the gear i own so far is Helix preamp to Mesa 2:90 to Recto 2x12. But note the closest thing to FRFR I have tried are JBL Eon 515xt's.

 

Now I am attempting to get that same 2:90/recto cab sound and interaction in an IR.

 

Since everything I have run into the real amplitube cab room has sounded great (Helix amps, my real preamps, my real amps into a reactive load), I am using Amplitube to hone my IR chops and ear without torturing others in my house, neighbors, etc. with real cabs.

Great. Thats encouraging. 

 

Yeah i agree, guitar pre's into an IR sounds nice. Im not sure if it was you that i was telling, but i do Triaxis>TH3 or redwirez IRs quite often and its tasty.

[Joepeggio]

Maybe a dumb question.

 

You captured the entire amp/cab in the ir? Not just the speaker?

 

How do you use it in helix? Do you thinks it's best to use ir in place of cab? Or entire pre amp cab combination?

 

Based on posts, are you using the Mesa pre only into the ir?

 

Sorry if I misunderstood the thread.

[roscoe5]

Maybe a dumb question.

 

You captured the entire amp/cab in the ir? Not just the speaker?

 

How do you use it in helix? Do you thinks it's best to use ir in place of cab? Or entire pre amp cab combination?

 

Based on posts, are you using the Mesa pre only into the ir?

 

Sorry if I misunderstood the thread.

 

No worries.

 

I ran the impulse signal through the Mesa 2:90 (which is a tube power amp) and a virtual Recto cab/mics in Amplitube and captured the response.

 

I use a Helix preamp or full amp, or physical Mesa Triaxis or Marshall JMP-1, with the resulting power amp/cab IR.   Putting the Mesa 2:90 in the signal chain changes the overall frequency response making it closer to my physical rig.  

 

This IR is processed in Helix the same as any other.  Physical IR's require an amplifier, cabinet, mics, and preamp back.  Usually a clean amp is used.  Using a tube amp colors the sound a bit.

 

I noticed that Ownhammer has a $99 "Studio Mix Collection" IR's that look like they used a Randall RT2/50 power amp on some of them.

 

Now from what I have read and heard for myself, the IR process captures only linear characteristics (frequency, phase, time), not non-linear characteristics (compression, distortion).  So with Helix HX cabs, Ownhammer/Redwirez IR's, Amplitube Cabs, or my iR's, you do not get the speaker distortion of a real cab.  This doesn't really matter on clean sounds, but can make a difference on overdriven, distorted, or pushed sounds.  I've actually tested trying to distort and overdrive an IR or HX cab.

 

This may be why a lot of people, including myself, really like playing Helix preamps through traditional guitar amps, including the Line 6 DT series.

 

Maybe Line 6 could try to model the distortion of the speakers throughout a level DB increase through a parallel process capture and incorporate that into their HX cab models as another slider or switch.  That would raise them up a level over the competition I believe.

 

So you wont really get the power tube distortion and compression a real Mesa 2:90 will give you.  The amp+cab IR's I am making are similar to playing through the Mesa 2:90 at a medium, non-power tube/speaker-distorting level.

[roscoe5]

Idea Scale topic added

 

Model speaker distortion for use with HX cabs and IR's

 

Model the distortion characteristics of different speakers/cabs for either inclusion with the HX cabs as a slider, or even as separate blocks that could be used with HX cabs or IR's.

 

One thing we seem to lose with cab sims in Helix, IR's, or software is the distortion of physical cabs and speakers.

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Model-speaker-distortion-for-use-with-HX-cabs-and-IR-s/816072-23508

[roscoe5]

Ok, going to take back what I said about Helix amp models sounding too thick with this amp + cab IR.  They are actually really sounding good to me today after some tweaking (knobs not drugs).  I guess it was 4am and I was delirious.  

 

It actually makes some sense why it sounds good.  The IR resulting from a tube power amp + cab somewhat simulates the true response of a real tube amp into a real cab.  Using an IR generated with a solid state amp or purely digital signal would of course sound and respond differently.

 

Neurons are firing now!

[roscoe5]

Well, I tried my first run with my real Mesa 2:90 and real Recto 2x12 cab with a single SM57 and it came out odd and harsh.  Defeated by a real cab, I went back to real Mesa 2:90 and AT4 Cab Room.

 

This time I REALLY put the time in and refined the volume and presence settings on the Mesa 2:90 and went WAY deep in AT4 testing all of the mics, positions, dual mic interactions, room mics, levels, etc with the Mesa 2:90.  I must have made 100+ IR's tonight.  

 

The result is what I feel are the best IR's I've made so far, and I think unique from other sounds available in Helix or other IR's.  I think I've hit a sweet spot, at least for my own ear, with IR's from physical tube amps and virtual cabs and the Helix amps/preamps.  I went back to the first IR's I made with only Amplitube and these definitely sound different.

 

First attempt at a hybrid real Mesa 2:90 and virtual AT4 cab/mic

• Mesa 290 V30 Amp Cab_hx.wav
  

IR's with refined settings and levels on the real amp and virtual cabs/mics

• Mesa 290 Recto 57.wav - single SM57 and lots of direct bite 
  
• Mesa 290 Recto 57D, 57DM, & 57M.wav - same as the 57 with Deep and Modern switches on the 2:90 engage (really hardly any difference between the 4, but there they are)
  
• Mesa 290 Recto 57_57.wav - amazing the difference the second 57 makes, still has bite but fuller
  
• Mesa 290 Recto 57_Bottle.wav - now we are starting to sweeten things up with mic combinations, a little smoother sound
  
• Mesa 290 Recto 57_Rib.wav - my personal favorite IR now with the Helix Cali Rectifire amp block
  

[mb1685]

Was searching around for Mesa 4x12 IRs and found this and can't wait to try it!

 

Would you mind making a set of IRs of the signal through just the 2:90 (preferably at different volume levels, different settings, etc.) without any cab or cab emulation? I love recording rack preamps directly and then using power amp simulation and then cab simulation. It would be really cool to run the preamp signal to an IR that simulates the power amp's frequency response and then run through an additional cabinet IR after that. I have a Mesa Triaxis on the way so simulating a 2:90 would be perfect for me.

 

Out of curiosity, how did you safely get the signal from the power amp into your audio interface in order to route it to Amplitube and make the IR? DI box between the power amp and cabinet?

[roscoe5]

Was searching around for Mesa 4x12 IRs and found this and can't wait to try it!

 

Would you mind making a set of IRs of the signal through just the 2:90 (preferably at different volume levels, different settings, etc.) without any cab or cab emulation? I love recording rack preamps directly and then using power amp simulation and then cab simulation. It would be really cool to run the preamp signal to an IR that simulates the power amp's frequency response and then run through an additional cabinet IR after that. I have a Mesa Triaxis on the way so simulating a 2:90 would be perfect for me.

 

Out of curiosity, how did you safely get the signal from the power amp into your audio interface in order to route it to Amplitube and make the IR? DI box between the power amp and cabinet?

 

 

Early on, I tried to do just the power amp without speaker and didn't really have success.  I got something, but it wasn't pleasant ;)  I believe that while the power amp does put a significant flavor on the speaker, I'm not sure I can really IR just the amp.  That may be more in the amp modelling world of Line 6 others greater than me, and I have requested power amp models on IdeaScale.  I might give it a go again with different generated tones and noise.

 

Note that IR's eat up A LOT of processing in Helix.  So an IR of the power amp AND a cab IR would be resource hogs.

 

Using a load box with line out to get signal to the Helix and DAW's.

 

I am in the process of getting another Mesa Lonesestar open back 2x12 cab with Black Shadow C90's.  If I can get my hands on a good ribbon mic to go with my AKG P420 condenser and Shure SM57, I think I can put out a really good all-Mesa IR pack for each of my different amps (2:90, 20/20, Stiletto, Recto, Mark V).  This would cover the spectrum of most people's needs with all Mesa amp and cab flavors.  Might also grab a pair of Celestion Greenbacks and a pair of Alnico Blues to swap out in the cabs and cover a bit more ground.

 

This is an older thread and I have reorganized a bit.  Here's the revised Dropbox links.

 

Root IR folder to all IR's

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/009bkqzooza1aop/AADhgWBm3EfcN6205-IWaGZaa/IR?dl=0

!Helix IR Readme v3.txt has a gear list.

 

The two best sounding physical Mesa 2:90/Recto 212 and Mesa Stiletto/Recto 212 IR's are in the v3 folder (a couple more coming this Thursday)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/009bkqzooza1aop/AAB6OPVyoC_yn3vGl_r5FZRba/IR/v3?dl=0

 

All of the ones posted to this thread originally have been archived.

[mb1685]

Oh yeah, I figured it would probably sound terrible without a cabinet IR after it (much like any type of signal with any overdrive), or just bland and boring if set to lower levels with no power tube distortion. But since I like experimenting with my own collection of speaker IRs, I think it would be a pretty neat way to model the power amp's effect on frequency response (even if it is just a static snapshot) and would be a pretty unique use for an IR. The only similar use I can think of is some IRs floating around that somebody made with a Tube Screamer set up as a clean boost (to get the mid hump/low cut EQ curve via the impulse response rather than approximating it with an EQ plugin). I think it would be especially neat for adding presence and depth to a preamp signal by making IRs with the presence controls tweaked and the deep switch on. I'd imagine it would sound wonky by itself but good make for an awesome piece of the puzzle if used directly after a preamp signal, and in series right before a cabinet IR.

 

I'm actually not using a Helix or any other modeler at the moment, just stumbled upon this post when searching for IRs in general. I like to use rack preamps, then power amp simulation plugins, and then cabinet simulation plugins (IR loaders). I just think it would be really cool to replace the power amp simulation plugin with power amp frequency response IRs and see how that works. I know that the response is determined by the impedance curve that results from the interaction between the power amp and the real world speakers, and that a load box may react differently and plus many speaker IRs already have the impedance curve 'baked into' the file by creating them with tube power amps with relatively high output impedance (compared to solid state power amps), so it would be a double-dose of power amp influence when using IRs like that, but I still think it would be a really neat experiment and fun to play around with. :) I know that the RedWirez IRs are created with a solid-state power amp, so it would be a cool alternative to their impedance curve IRs that they provide for blending purposes.

 

Thanks for the links, I'll definitely download those and give them a shot! If you ever do decide to capture just the power amp, I'd be stoked to download the results!

[roscoe5]

Thanks for the links, I'll definitely download those and give them a shot! If you ever do decide to capture just the power amp, I'd be stoked to download the results!

 

Alrighty, being the adventurous type I went ahead and made them.  I made Normal, Deep, Modern, Deep + Modern each with Presence = 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, & 100%.

 

Success this time, but will definitely take some experimenting to use them.  They actually sound pretty cool between a Helix preamp and Helix HX cab.  Might be a little dark for live use, but you can definitely hear the Mesa 290 thickness.

 

Let me know if they are usable to you, definitely curious.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lstuzn05tdpin9v/AACyetqAcLQUyJcKoqZMNIiIa/!IR%20Requests/mb1685?dl=0

[mb1685]

Wow, thank you so much! I can't wait to try these. I'll definitely be sending you a PayPal donation!

 

So do I have it right that V3 is made with the 2:90 and your real Recto 2x12, and V2 and V1 are the 2:90 plus Amplitube 4 cabs?

[roscoe5]

Ha, I'll have to look in those folders again. Lots of experiments and development. I'll throw some Readme files in those folders and post back here when done.

[roscoe5]

Wow, thank you so much! I can't wait to try these. I'll definitely be sending you a PayPal donation!

 

So do I have it right that V3 is made with the 2:90 and your real Recto 2x12, and V2 and V1 are the 2:90 plus Amplitube 4 cabs?

 OK, put updated Readme's in all three version folders.

 

v1 has a mix of all AT and real amp/AT cab IR's, really me just flailing away trying to get some usable sounds in Helix that were different (improvements to me) from the stock cab models.

v2 was all AT plus some experimenting with additional amp/preamp flavors.  There's a few fails in there, but some cool sounds too.

v3 is real amp/real cab as indicated, plus a couple of AT4 cab-only IR's (so far) using some further developed methods and experience I gained from doing real the IR's.  This batch seems much more in line with IR's from the pros, but I've put a little more love, effort, and tuning on them to sound great with my Helix amps.

v4 (coming soon), dual mixed mics (AKG P420 condenser, AKG D112 dynamic, Audix D2 dynamic, dual SM57-1@45deg, ? ribbon), more cabs (1x12 Mark V combo, Lonestar 2x12 open back, more speaker types (Black Shadow C90, Celestion Greenbacks, Jensen Alnico P12Qs ), more of the power amp options & toggle switches on each of my Mesa amps (Triple Recto multi-watt, Stilletto Deuce II, Mark V, 290, 20/20, Marshall EL34 100/100).  That should keep me busy for a while ;)

[mb1685]

Awesome! Thanks again man!

[roscoe5]

No prob, thank you!