Anyone running a W / D / W setup with Helix?

[ricksteruk]

I'm wondering if I ought to give it a go.  Is it the best thing in the world ever?   ;)

 

(W/D/W means Wet / Dry / Wet - the centre amp has no FX just pure guitar tone, the outer ones carry the stereo FX)

 

At the moment I'm playing in glorious stereo with two 1x12 combos separated by about 6 feet.  Sounds immense!  It really just fills the room.. even when just playing simple "mono" presets.

 

The big question is... Should I put a 3rd amp in the middle?

 

I am worried that if I try it I will like it too much!  Then I'll have an extra thing to lug to gigs which of course is not ideal.

 

But curiosity is getting the better of me....  I wonder how I will rig it up.  At the moment the two amps are fed from the 1/4in outputs so I can control them both with Helix's Big Volume Knob.    I think I'll probably need to put a Send block right after the amp block (or Send/Return if in 4cm) so that the centre amp does not have any post modulation, reverb or delay.  I won't be able to use the Big Volume Knob to adjust the centre speaker :(

 

Could someone who's used WDW before tell me if it would it be normal in a W/D/W rig to use Kill Dry so that the wet channels don't carry the core signal?  Helix doesn't have kill dry as such but by turning mix to 100% on reverbs it can do it.

 

Helix's routing is so powerful different presets could have totally different set ups of amps.

[Digital_Igloo]

I typically leave a bit of dry signal in the Wet part of a WDW setup, but there aren't really any rules. The preset TEMPLATES > 03B Wet-Dry-Wet FRFR and 03C Wet-Dry-Wet Amps have the Delay at 40% and the Reverb at 30%, but trust your ears.

[ricksteruk]

I typically leave a bit of dry signal in the Wet part of a WDW setup, but there aren't really any rules. The preset TEMPLATES > 03B Wet-Dry-Wet FRFR and 03C Wet-Dry-Wet Amps have the Delay at 40% and the Reverb at 30%, but trust your ears.

 

Thanks for the reply DI.  Yes!! "Trust your ears" is almost certainly the best advice... because if it sounds good.. then it is good!!!

 

I will have to check out those templates and see how they are set up.  It's helpful to have a look and see how someone else would do things rather than trying to reinvent the wheel all the time.

[Digital_Igloo]

It also depends on your playback system. Generally, if your two wet speakers are smaller than your center dry speaker, you'd run them 100% wet; if all of your speakers are the same size/volume, 100% wet speakers might overwhelm the dry one.

[ricksteruk]

I notice in the Templates there is a Gain block just before the Path 1b output to Send1/2 for the dry amp.  Wouldn't it be nice if you could assign the Gain control to the Big Volume Knob :)

 

It also depends on your playback system. Generally, if your two wet speakers are smaller than your center dry speaker, you'd run them 100% wet; if all of your speakers are the same size/volume, 100% wet speakers might overwhelm the dry one.

 

I'd be using three (different) 1 x 12 combos... I just sold my 50W Marshall head and the 4x12 is up for sale too.. my back can't take it anymore!

 

I'll just have to experiment in the morning when I can make noise and see if it sounds any good.

 

I have a newish 50W EL34 H&K combo, an old 30W 6V6 Laney AOR combo and an old 75W solid state Award Sessionette 75 combo.  The H&K and the Sessionette are sounding really good as a stereo pair.  Of course they sound different to each other - one is tube, one is SS - one is open back, one is closed - one has a neo magnet Celestion, one has an old 80s Celestion.  It's these differences that make it sound so good!!  I always used to enjoy running multiple sets of speakers as a kid through our stereo and enjoy the nuances that each different sized and shaped cone brought into the mix.

 

So the Laney would go in the middle.  

 

Now I will want to set that up in 4cm as well as both the others... AAAARGH  :o

[roscoe5]

Inspired by the Firehawk 1500, I hooked up my pair of M-Audio BX-5 studio monitors as FRFR wets and my Mesa Mark V 1x12 combo (power amp in) as the dry and it sounded KILLER. Peeled off the dry (no cab or stereo effects yet) to send 3 to the MV effects return, then effects and IR cab to the multi out stereo 1/4" LR path.

 

The rig could be really compact portable, more so than 3 guitar cabs. You can also get the best of both worlds...SS FRFR and tube power 12in dry guitar sounds and feel.

 

Of course there are probably more suitable small powered speakers for this as the BX-5s probably aren't gig/road worthy and are only 40w ea. But they were good enough to prove the concept.

 

So how would you mount them on stage...hmm. Stands or poles? Some kind of width adjustable "saddlebag" mount that goes over the top of a combo or cab?

[ricksteruk]

Hehe.. FRFR saddlebag :)  I like it!

 

Yeah Roscoe, you're right that 3 guitar cabs is getting a bit impractical.  Two doesn't seem so bad as my Sessionette 75 is so small it's no bother to bring as well as my main H&K amp... it's amazing that it even fits a 12in driver in to be honest!!

[roscoe5]

Gig portability is one thing, but it's all fair game at home and you can get as crazy as you like.

 

I just messaged a guy on Craigslist that wants to swap his Mark V 1x12 combo cab for a head shell...that I just so happened to have lying around. If it all works out, I'll have two Mesa Mark V 1x12 combo cabs and a Recto 2x12. My Mesa Simul 2:90 could run the two 1x12s with C90's for wet and the Mark V power amp can run the Recto 2x12 V30's dry. I'd probably never take all that out in public, unless there was chicken wire in front of the stage...Roadhouse!

[ricksteruk]

That's true Roscoe - I can go mad at home and then just take a smaller rig to gigs.

 

Hope your deal comes off.. that sounds like a fun home system :)

[DarrellM5]

At home I've been playing with a W/D/W setup where I use a DT25 for the dry and a pair of Alto TS110A PA speakers for the wet signal.  I think it sounds great.

[roscoe5]

Oh cool, the Altos for wet would be nice.

 

It would be cool if Line 6 could make some smaller add-on wet speakers with L6 link to run with DT amps. I was thinking they could do something like separating the 6in coax speakers from Firehawk 1500 amd putting them in small powered cabs. I still want the wet speaker saddlebag mount on my amp for them though ;)

 

Wonder if the Audix Amp Grabber mic mounts could support small speakers.

[ricksteruk]

I've done some experimenting today.  First with one of the templates and then on my own preset.

 

It does sound pretty good.  The main benefit is a little more focus and clarity to the tone.  The downside is that the centre speaker seems to become very important.   A bit like with home cinema systems where the centre speaker carries most of the weight of the sound and the other speakers are simply for surround sound effects.  I did feel like the outer speakers were a bit superfluous at times.. and not only that it - if I had basically the same thing running through all 3 speakers it almost seemed to make the stereo spread more confusing than just using 2.

 

Now saying all this it should be borne in mind that all 3 of my speakers are different.  Using the same speakers and amps may give a different result.  I seem to have got lucky in that my H&K and my Session amp actually have a very similar tonality when connected as a stereo pair into their FX returns.  The Laney on the other hand is a fair bit brighter - perhaps as it has a metal grille at the front and not a Fender style grille cloth that muffles things a bit.

 

I am going to stay with stereo amps for now.. it actually feels more focused!!

 

I think Roscoe's saddlebags idea is about right if you're going for W/D/W.  Use a nice big cab in the centre for your main tone - maybe a 2x12 and then the Wet speakers can be much smaller.

[roscoe5]

It's definitely fun to experiment.

 

And the CL deal straight swapping my Mesa Mark V head shell for the amp-less Mark V 1x12 combo went through last night. I now have two 1x12 combo cabs. I can get my ricksteruk vibe on now.

 

Gonna have to use the Mesa 290 6L6 or 20/20 EL84 stereo amps which colored my sound before. I have Mesa BS C90 speakers now though which are brighter and cleaner than V30's. Maybe it will be fine.

[roscoe5]

Well, Infinally got around to setting up the two Mesa Mark V 1x12 combo shells with my Mesa Simul 290 and loved the stereo! But the L6 SV HD100 sounds SO much better with Helix than the Mesa power amps.

 

I think I'll keep an eye out for two Line 6 SV 1x12 combos. I'm sure by the time I get them, Line 6 will put out the next big amp thing ;)

[ricksteruk]

Well, Infinally got around to setting up the two Mesa Mark V 1x12 combo shells with my Mesa Simul 290 and loved the stereo! But the L6 SV HD100 sounds SO much better with Helix than the Mesa power amps.

 

I think I'll keep an eye out for two Line 6 SV 1x12 combos. I'm sure by the time I get them, Line 6 will put out the next big amp thing ;)

 

Yeah stereo is the business!

 

I just looked up the Mesa Simul-Class2 : Ninety!  What a beast!!! 8 x 6L6 tubes and 3 x 12AX7's.  it does look to me though that it is specifically designed to colour your sound.  A mixture of ClassA and A/B, with Deep, Half/Drive and Modern modes...

 

Shame there's no "just make it louder and please don't try to F**K with it" setting!!   I do like a little tube warmth, but you can overdo things.

 

My H&K power amp is very neutral sounding.. these sometimes get criticised for being "too hi-fi" but I kind of think that's a good thing on a modern amp where a lot of the tone is meant to come from the preamp.   Sure it's great when you can crank up the volume on a classic amp and get the power tubes roaring, but not many of us have the luxury of playing venues big enough to take that sort of volume.