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Where do you put your FRFR(s) on stage?


zooey
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Still moophing about in my basement studio, but thinking about gigging and jamming, specifically a reunion gig with one of my high school bands (lord help us all...). Today I was thinking about how I'd set up my 2 FRFRs and Helix on stage. I've been playing with them on the floor angled in facing me, like monitors, but what if  there's no PA (likely for that reunion thing, I think?), and I'm covering the room? They'd need to be behind me.

 

As an experiment, I turned around, like the speakers were behind me, trying to be the same distance away. Boy did that sound different, much less bright. Didn't expect that. I guess ears themselves just point forwards.

 

That means there's always going to be a big difference between what I hear and what the audience hears. Don't like that, but far as I can see, there's no real alternative to putting your speakers behind you if you're trying to fill the room, and the stage. Right?

 

Pole-mounting the speakers would be much better for filling the room, and they do have fittings for that, but I don't have stands, and I kinda don't want to make my rig into any more of a pretentious Big Deal than it has to be. Anyway, that's not going to change the ears-direction thing, they'd still be behind me.

 

So how do you folks set up FRFRs on stage? Like monitors? Back line? At the sides pointing across? Do you pole mount them? (Guess not if your using guitar-cab-shaped ones.)

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Still moophing about in my basement studio, but thinking about gigging and jamming, specifically a reunion gig with one of my high school bands (lord help us all...). Today I was thinking about how I'd set up my 2 FRFRs and Helix on stage. I've been playing with them on the floor angled in facing me, like monitors, but what if  there's no PA (likely for that reunion thing, I think?), and I'm covering the room? They'd need to be behind me.

 

As an experiment, I turned around, like the speakers were behind me, trying to be the same distance away. Boy did that sound different, much less bright. Didn't expect that. I guess ears themselves just point forwards.

 

That means there's always going to be a big difference between what I hear and what the audience hears. Don't like that, but far as I can see, there's no real alternative to putting your speakers behind you if you're trying to fill the room, and the stage. Right?

 

Pole-mounting the speakers would be much better for filling the room, and they do have fittings for that, but I don't have stands, and I kinda don't want to make my rig into any more of a pretentious Big Deal than it has to be. Anyway, that's not going to change the ears-direction thing, they'd still be behind me.

 

So how do you folks set up FRFRs on stage? Like monitors? Back line? At the sides pointing across? Do you pole mount them? (Guess not if your using guitar-cab-shaped ones.)

so where would you put your amp if it wasn't a helix rig?

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I put my FRFR on a speaker stand. I found if i put it on the floor, my stage volume climbs... I'm 6'6".., The FOH system puts the sound out to the audience, so the FRFR is just for the stage. I eq and volume control that to the 1/4" outs only, the XLR is at mic level to the sound man. Played last night,and the sound man was having problems with the other guitarist's sound - Marshall amp. I asked how mine was doing, and he complimented me on it, had nothing but good to say.

 

Dave

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I create my presets with the speaker facing me about 6 feet away.  When I play I have the speaker placed in a monitor position behind me so that the rest of the band can hear it.  It sounds different than when it's facing me, but I trust what I heard when I created the preset and I know what's being fed to the audience is exactly what I designed with my speaker facing me.  I rarely, if ever, modify my presets once I get to the stage.  I simply match up the master volume to match the rest of the band and that's it.  But I'm depending on the FOH system to get the sound to the audience.

 

In your situation I would probably opt to set my speaker on a speaker stand behind me so that it projects correctly into the audience as well as to everyone on stage.  A lot depends on the room and the type of speaker you have, but I can't imagine needing more than one speaker on a stand.  Powered speakers by designed are optimized to project sound over long distances unlike traditional guitar cabinets, so I can't imagine any reason you would be underpowered unless your speakers are underpowered.

 

But my real question is, if there isn't a PA how will you handle the voices?

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But my real question is, if there isn't a PA how will you handle the voices?

Hah, well yes, there's likely to be a small PA for the vocals and horns (solos at least), but my guess is nothing else will be mic'd. No idea how big the space is, or how many people will be there, or how loud the band will want to be.

 

I have a pair of Alesis Alpha 112s, and you're right I almost certainly don't need to 2 for volume, but I've been running stereo and like it, so I'm going to try that. There are several inexpensive pairs of speaker stands w a bag on eBay, I'll probably try one of those. If anyone has any stand recommendations, please say. There's also some chance the 80-100hz peak I hear will go away if the speakers aren't on the floor in angled monitor position.

 

If I don't like what I hear live, I'm not sure I'll want to just leave it be. For one thing, there's no point in doing this if I'm not having fun! For another, this will be my first FRFR gig, and my first time playing with or for people in many many years, so I'll also be wanting to learn and adjust.

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When the FOH is too small, I put my single Mackie Thump12 behind me on a pole.

 

When the FOH can handle my sound, the sound guy doesn't like my speaker behind me on a pole; it's too loud. So I put it on the floor, in front of me and to one side. I'm on one side of the stage and the back of my speaker is towards the rest of the band, so I can have it as loud as I like without complaints from the band or the sound guy.

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When the FOH is too small, I put my single Mackie Thump12 behind me on a pole.

 

When the FOH can handle my sound, the sound guy doesn't like my speaker behind me on a pole; it's too loud. So I put it on the floor, in front of me and to one side. I'm on one side of the stage and the back of my speaker is towards the rest of the band, so I can have it as loud as I like without complaints from the band or the sound guy.

This.

 

Along these lines, I'm realizing that my dream of a minimalist rig with just a pedal are a fantasy. Really, set up is...

- Guitar into Helix

- Power into Helix

- Speakers onto poles

- Power to speakers

- Helix to speakers

All speaker setup is probably x2, if I want to do stereo like I have been at home.

 

If I'm going to have speakers in the back line, Helix rack would have made a lot more sense ergonomically.

 

Minimal, no. Oops.

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Thanks for starting this thread. I had my first gig with the Helix and FRFR, today, and I needed to talk about it. :)

It was a long narrow room. I was set up on the right side with my FRFR behind me,laying on it's side, but on a small stand that angles it back a little. I didn't connect to FOH.

My wife was sitting half way back on the opposite wall from me, with a Tascam recorder running on the table.

We played well and got good crowd reaction. I thought I sounded pretty good.

Afterwards, my wife asked if everything was working okay. She said it didn't sound right.

I get home and listen to the recording from her spot and you can barely hear me. I know if I had turned up much more I would have been overwhelming the band. So I learned a lesson. Either I need a speaker on each side of the stage, or I need to connect to FOH. It will probably be FOH because I'm already hauling in more than I want. I'm just really surprised that my FRFR dispersion was so narrow. Gig and learn.

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I've used my speakers in front of me positioned as monitors. I hear myself great, but it doesn't send any sound out towards the audience. This obviously doesn't work in venues where the instruments are not going through the P.A. Even when my guitar is running through the P.A., there is still a quiet area close to the stage in some rooms. This is especially an issue since the other guitar and bass player are using regular amps so it can throw off the mix.

 

I've used my speakers behind me in the traditional amp position. This makes for a better/more even mix out front, but I don't like the sound as much and I tend to push up the volume.

 

My solution now is to do both. I put one speaker in front of me as a monitor positioned at a bit of an angle to aim it away from the rest of the band. I use a second speaker behind me where I would traditionally place my amp. I run the speaker positioned in front of me slightly louder so I hear myself well, but keep the perceived stage volume out front from being to loud. I've done this for a couple of gigs now and have been really happy with this setup.

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Thanks for starting this thread. I had my first gig with the Helix and FRFR, today, and I needed to talk about it. :)

It was a long narrow room. I was set up on the right side with my FRFR behind me,laying on it's side, but on a small stand that angles it back a little. I didn't connect to FOH.

My wife was sitting half way back on the opposite wall from me, with a Tascam recorder running on the table.

We played well and got good crowd reaction. I thought I sounded pretty good.

Afterwards, my wife asked if everything was working okay. She said it didn't sound right.

I get home and listen to the recording from her spot and you can barely hear me. I know if I had turned up much more I would have been overwhelming the band. So I learned a lesson. Either I need a speaker on each side of the stage, or I need to connect to FOH. It will probably be FOH because I'm already hauling in more than I want. I'm just really surprised that my FRFR dispersion was so narrow. Gig and learn.

 

This is the main reason we ALWAYS take our instruments through the FOH.  It's the great equalizer to make sure everything projects across the entire audience.

 

However, I suspect you could also fix the problem to some degree by placement of your FRFR on a pole projecting straight out into the audience.  Here's the reason:

 

The powered FRFR speakers that many people are using are nothing more than FOH PA speakers.  As such they're designed for the efficient projection of sound.  This means they are designed to send the sound in a wide pattern horizontally, and a narrow pattern vertically when positioned in an upright position with the horn at the top.  This limits the loss of sound energy being directed into the ceiling and floor and projects it better across the area of the audience.

 

But this vertical position on a pole also comes with a downside.  Because it's positioned at the back of the stage you're far more likely to get the guitar cross-feeding into the vocal mics.  For that reason as well as I just don't like the looks of a speaker on a pole behind me,  I'll fix it all by putting it on the floor in it's monitor position, and use the FOH to handle projecting to the audience.  I'm happy, the singers are happy, the soundman is happy, and the audience is happy.

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Ideally, I like to have the mains to the side of me (maybe in front as well if possible), and then have a monitor right in front of me. Or in-ear monitors. But in ears are a crapshoot sometimes and sound-guys seem to always have trouble making in-ears sound good.

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I get home and listen to the recording from her spot and you can barely hear me. I know if I had turned up much more I would have been overwhelming the band. So I learned a lesson. Either I need a speaker on each side of the stage, or I need to connect to FOH. It will probably be FOH because I'm already hauling in more than I want. I'm just really surprised that my FRFR dispersion was so narrow. Gig and learn.

Just guessing, but it's possible some of the problem was the tilted-back angle. You were pointing over the audience's head, but were close enough that they hit you more than people further out.

 

That said, in a band I played in long ago, both the other guitar player and I had cabs on both sides of the stage, mostly so we could hear each other, but with the side effect of better dispersion in the room. (We were also mic'd.)

 

One of the huge benefits I imagIne you get with wireless (never used one) is the ability to get out into the room and listen from anywhere.

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interesting how quickly we forget.  Most 4 x 12" cabs have a narrow dispersion -  narrower than a typical 90 degree horn.  Most guitarists didn't seem to care...and of course they played too loud as well meaning 20% of the audience got deafened by guitar and the others just got mush. Even in a full mic up  too!

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The powered FRFR speakers that many people are using are nothing more than FOH PA speakers.  As such they're designed for the efficient projection of sound.  This means they are designed to send the sound in a wide pattern horizontally, and a narrow pattern vertically when positioned in an upright position with the horn at the top.  This limits the loss of sound energy being directed into the ceiling and floor and projects it better across the area of the audience.

 

But this vertical position on a pole also comes with a downside.  Because it's positioned at the back of the stage you're far more likely to get the guitar cross-feeding into the vocal mics.  For that reason as well as I just don't like the looks of a speaker on a pole behind me,  I'll fix it all by putting it on the floor in it's monitor position, and use the FOH to handle projecting to the audience.  I'm happy, the singers are happy, the soundman is happy, and the audience is happy.

The dispersion of the horn can also be an advantage for monitoring. If you put your typical PA speaker on its side on the floor in front of you, with the speaker tilted back, then the horn is actually turned on its side. That means you now get the wide dispersion vertically and the narrow dispersion horizontally. And that's exactly what you want for a monitor in front of you. Wide dispersion vertically ensures you can hear the monitor on the floor, somewhat close to you. Narrow dispersion horizontally ensures you hear your monitor and not someone else's giving you the monitor mix you want separate from the other band members.

 

Having a FRFR monitor in front of you vs. a guitar amp behind you is quite a different experience. It will be a lot brighter and more present, not as warm. And there's more chance of damaging your ears. Manage appropriately. It will also interact differently with your guitar, changing how the guitar reacts to the acoustic reinforcement that comes from more direct acoustic coupling.

 

It can take a while to get use to this, but it can be worth it in terms of a more accurate picture of your actual guitar tone and better interaction with your guitar.

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