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New Helix User - Noisy Preamp Using 4CM


ctelkes
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Hey All,

 

I am coming to Helix after using an M13 for years.  I've never used 4CM or an FX loop before, so I'm hoping for some advice.  

 

I am running a Les Paul with DiMarzio Super Distortion pickups into an Orange Dark Terror.  I play in a style (as you can imagine) with very high gain as a rule.  The Dark Terror is usually sitting around 3 o'clock for both the gain and the scoop, with the main volume set at 1 o'clock.  Believe it or not, the amp is not really that noisy.  Granted, there is hiss, but it is very manageable.  Strangely, after setting up the 4CM with the Helix, I find the DT's preamp block to be very, very noisy.  It basically drowns out all the other background noise in the rehearsal space.  If I switch to a Helix amp model, the noise goes away.

 

I am using a noise gate as the first block in the Helix chain, but since the preamp is coming after that, there is nothing taming the sound.  It seems weird to me to put a gate in after the block, and it really changes the feel of picking as the gate has to open, which is not instant.  Basically, with the Orange amp "off" in the Helix, there is no noise.  But with it engaged, it is a hissing mess.  It still sounds the same when I play it, it's when I'm not playing it that it irritates me.

 

What am I doing wrong?  If I bypass the Helix 4CM and plug directly into the amp the noise goes away, and I still get the same tone I am after.  When I put the 4CM back into place, everything is fine until I activate the preamp block and then HISSSSSSS.

 

Again, I'd prefer not to have to put a gate in after the I/O block, and when I experimented with a noise gate block tonight it never really completely got rid of the hiss without massively affecting the tone.  Any ideas?

 

Things that I think could be affecting it, but I'm not sure:

FX loop on the DT just noisy?

FX loop on DT is run by a 12AT7, should I try swapping it?

I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that like most digital devices, the big volume knob should just be turned up and forgotten about (I'd like to bypass it, actually) - could the Helix be amplifying the hiss?

 

Thanks for any input!

 

Chris

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Big can of worms here.   Ive been doing 4CM for a while with multiple platforms.  Some have issues with my gear and some dont.

For hum and general noise, the single biggest advance Ive had was using an Isolating transformer between the helix and my amp.

Cut the noise down to a point where I could play my Friedman preamp without noise gates.    All my noise issues were with ground loops between my gear.

The send/return connections from my helix ran to the iso box, then onto the preamp. (or in your case the input and send of your amp.)

Best $50 you can spend.   Its was like someone flipped a switch and turned off the noise. 

 

This is of course assuming you have all your levels correct.   I run the big volume knob on the helix at full for unity. And I use it as my master volume when I need to turn down for home playing.   Works great.  

 

If you create a blank patch with nothing in it but a send/return block whats the noise like then?

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Things that I think could be affecting it, but I'm not sure:

FX loop on the DT just noisy?

FX loop on DT is run by a 12AT7, should I try swapping it?

I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that like most digital devices, the big volume knob should just be turned up and forgotten about (I'd like to bypass it, actually) - could the Helix be amplifying the hiss?

 

Thanks for any input!

 

Chris

Hmmm...Some FX loops are definitely noisy. Having used the 500X for years, I can attest to that. I'm curious why they choose to stick a tube in the FX loop. Never seen that before, or maybe I just didn't notice other amps similarly equipped?

 

That's a great little amp though, isn't it? Stupid loud. I recorded an entire album with one about a year ago...it was the studio's amp, and we were recording dry, so I can't say of the FX loop was noisy or not...

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Lots of amps use a power tube, or 1/2 of one, for the FX loop.  Here's a link with some cool info on as to why:

 

http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/fx-loops-explained

 

ctelkes - If you'd post your patch, or message me with it, I'd be happy to try it 4 cable method into my DT25 to see if I'm getting the same result.

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Thanks everyone for chiming in...

 

evh0u82

I have an Ebtech Hum Eliminator sitting around somewhere in a closet.  I will try plugging it in to see if it makes a difference.  If that doesn't work, is there a particular model you are using.  I'm not sure if it is technically an isolation transformer or not.

 

 

cruisinon2

Yes, I absolutely love the amp!  It's loud and mean, and up until this point, quiet.  There is something exciting about being able to bypass and try out some Helix tones though, so I hope i can get it sorted.

 

DarrellM5

I will post a patch when I get back to the pedalboard.  It's at the rehearsal space right now.  Is there a way to fire up the editor at home and pull the patch off there without the Helix connected?  I started it on the computer.  It's very basic, so it should be easy to troubleshoot.

 

Thanks, everyone!

 

Chris

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Yep the ebtech hum eliminator is perfect.   Ive just bought the rack version but previously I was using the Behringer version of the ebtech with amazing results.

Just make sure to get the ins and outs the right way.  Im using trs leads for all my connections and its quiet as a mouse.

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Mine goes like this.

 

So guitar lead into the helix.

Send 1 from the helix to the first input of the ebtech.

The first output of the ebtech to the front of the amp.

The send of the amp to the second input of the ebtech.

The second output of the ebtech goes to the return 1 of the helix.

Output of the helix to the return of the amp.

 

I make all my connections with trs cables.  Whether that helps or not I dont know but my cable snake is all trs so thats what Im using.

 

Hope that helps.

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Mine goes like this.

 

So guitar lead into the helix.

Send 1 from the helix to the first input of the ebtech.

The first output of the ebtech to the front of the amp.

The send of the amp to the second input of the ebtech.

The second output of the ebtech goes to the return 1 of the helix.

Output of the helix to the return of the amp.

 

I make all my connections with trs cables.  Whether that helps or not I dont know but my cable snake is all trs so thats what Im using.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Nice one, cheers!

 

Got some new Mogami cables coming today so I'll give it a go.

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Lots of amps use a power tube, or 1/2 of one, for the FX loop.  Here's a link with some cool info on as to why:

 

http://proguitarshop.com/andyscorner/fx-loops-explained

 

ctelkes - If you'd post your patch, or message me with it, I'd be happy to try it 4 cable method into my DT25 to see if I'm getting the same result.

 

Here is a basic patch I was playing with tonight:

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3jebYiMqFtFNE55Ul82TmdqY1E/view?usp=sharing

 

 

I was still unable to get the noise down to the same level as when the Helix is completely out of the chain.  If I turn on the noise gate right after the FX Loop, it cuts the sound out, but it's there when I'm playing, albeit mostly drowned out by the guitar.  I can't help feeling like there shouldn't be that much hiss.  It seems like the Helix is bumping the level up louder in the FX Loop than if the signal went straight into the amp.

 

The Ebtech did take away some slight buzz I heard, but not the hiss.

 

I have the input, sends, and output set to instrument level.  I did try switching the FX loop to line level at one point, but it didn't seem to do anything except make the whole thing quieter.  Global EQ is bypassed.

 

Any help is appreciated!

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  • 4 months later...

I guess I'm late to the party. But I'm glad i found this thread. Does the Ebtech remove Hum or Hiss? I don't have a Hum problem with JVM210H and the 4CM but man the hiss is so bad i just wanted to throw the helix out. its sooooooo noisy to the point where the guys in the band made me put it back in the box. I really want to use it but this hiss is unbearable. Will the Ebtech remove the Hiss?

 

Thanks

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  • 2 months later...

Hi all,

 

just tried the 4CM Method the first time with my Archon AMP and had an ugly humming.

So fiddled around a little and ended up using the helix's phones-out instead of the line-out to the amps return.

 

The humming is gone.

I guess it's not the right way to do a 4CM but it works for me.

 

cheers

Dan

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  • 7 months later...

I am having the exact same thing with my Orange Rockerverb MKIII and my Brunetti Mercury.

 

The hiss and jitter noise is woeful. Disconnect the helix, completely, and it's bliss.

 

The Helix is definitely the source of the woes.

 

So I too am looking for a solution before I need to sell my helix.

 

p.s. Had issues with my Fractal AX8 in the same 4CM scenario. I have sold that. ARGHHHHHH!!!

 

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Mine goes like this.

 

So guitar lead into the helix.

Send 1 from the helix to the first input of the ebtech.

The first output of the ebtech to the front of the amp.

The send of the amp to the second input of the ebtech.

The second output of the ebtech goes to the return 1 of the helix.

Output of the helix to the return of the amp.

 

I make all my connections with trs cables.  Whether that helps or not I dont know but my cable snake is all trs so thats what Im using.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Thanks! I am trying to make my Friedman combo play nice with Helix

 

Have you got any ideas on dealing with noise that seems to come from the USB being connected>?

 

I've got an Ebtech two-channel hum eliminator, have not tried using TRS cables yet!

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I would try to set the Send and Return levels to line level (individually) and see if that helps. You may need to fiddle with the levels: If you set the Helix Send to Line instead of Instrument leveel, you may have to reduce the Send volume a little.

TRS cables would only help when using symmetric connections. I don't know if the Ebtech does that, but a more intricate approach would be to use two passive DI boxes: Helix (TR cable) --> DI (XLR cable) --> DI (TR Cable) --> Amp. The TR cables should be short while the XLRs can be long. With stereo DI boxes like the Palmer PAN 04 you could run two connections fully symmetrical. The disasvantage is obviously the need for two DIs.

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