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A Question About Full Amp Models...

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#1 Zombieslayer5P

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 09:38 PM

I am wondering if anyone here has any insight into this.  I run my POD HD500 (Output mode: Poweramp Stack, speaker/mic sims:off) into a powered mixer with all eq flat on it, then from the mixer into a 2x12 cab packing WGS Veteran 30s.  (And don't worry; the mixer's speaker outs require a MINMUM 4 ohm load, and my cab is 8 ohms, so I'm covered there :D)  I've been having a hard time dealing with using the full  amp models in this fashion, as it sounds very fizzy unless I really turn down the treble/presence controlls .  One benchmark I have is the Recto model, as it doesn't sound nearly as good as when my friend ran his Mesa Roadking into the same cab on channel 4 in modern mode (basically working as the same recto modeled in the HD).  HD Recto full model sounds very fizzy in comparison.  With that in mind, does anyone know whether or not the full models (in either poweramp output mode) are actually optimized to compensate for tonal changes that result from running into the power section of a tube amp, or does L6 have some work to do on refining the HD's representation of the higher frequencies in their models?  Thank's in advance for you guys' time.  :)


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#2 silverhead

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 05:32 AM

I know this may seem a bit simplistic, but as I understand things the POD HD Full amp models are generally used in Studio output mode, and the Pre amp models give best results when used in one of the Live output modes. As I understand it the essential difference in Full and Pre amp models is that the Pre amp models do not include any power amp emulation while the Full amp models do. Hence, using a Full amp model with a Live output mode necessarily adds power amp emulation, which then is routed into a real power amp.

 

Here's a snip from the Pod HD500 Advanced Guide on this point:

 

TIP: When using the Combo or Stack options and connecting into a tube amplifier, we also recommend that you choose a Preamp Model from the Amp Model menu (rather than one of the “Full” Amp Models). HD Preamp Models include no power amp emulation, making them typically better suited for this connection. That said, there is no wrong choice! PODs have always been about flexibility... Check out all the possibilities and decide which Models work best for your tone!


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#3 dbagchee

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 09:11 AM

Since you are using a solid state pre, your setup should sound OK - pre amp only may be worth a shot though. The other thing you can play with is the DEP settings - play with master volume, bias and sag and you can get pretty different results.


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#4 Zombieslayer5P

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 05:03 PM

Just tried using both the full and pre models with the same setup (using the F-Ball and F-Ball Pre models).  I found that turning down the master volume on the full model (from 84 to 67) seemed to take off just a hair of the fizz, but it still sounds rough.  Using the pre variant, it sounds anemic in comparison (empty sounding mids with steril sounding highs).  Still, I appreciate the suggestions :)

 

The fizz issue is something I've been combatting even when using the full models with cab/mic models in Studio/Direct mode straight into my US-1641 and out of my KRKs.  To my ears, the way the HDs represent the higher frequencies (with the med/high gain amps) sounds almost as though they use some sort of white noise generator, whereas the highs in real amps or higher end modelers give a proper "pissed off hornet" sound.  The best way I can describe the difference in these two sonic textures is that the HD's highs sound like a constant hiss, where as the highs in a real amp/high end modeler have a grittyness that seems to ebb and flow with the signal of the guitar passing through the circuit.  My hope is that in some future firmware update (assuming it ever comes lol) will address this issue, so that the amp models will sound less harsh when going for an aggressive tone regardless of the output configuration.

 

Again, thank you guys for sharing your knowledge.  :D


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#5 spaceatl

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 07:11 PM

with the Fball less is more in terms of drive IMHO...less maaster, a little more bias...DEPs are a big part of it...I have to use a clean screamer approach with that one it get what I like...the right tone for me is with the drive down around 10-11 oclock and pushing the snot out of it with some cleanish level...Strymon OB1 does it pretty good too for an external pedal approach...mid-focus q works pretty good as it has a lot of clean level...But since the Soldano came around I never use it anymore...


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#6 joel_brown

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 03:20 PM

I had a similar issue and ended up reducing the AMP Model's treble and presence plus buying an external EQ.  Another way I found is to add a Screamer in front of the AMP Model and adjust the tone there too.


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#7 Zombieslayer5P

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 04:34 PM

I do the screamer thing already, but I never had thought to crank the output level on the screamer and reduce the drive on the AMP model.  I did this as per spaceatl's suggestion, and while it didn't really do much for refining the higher frequencies, it did have the nice result of making the AMP sound tighter with better note definition.  :)  Also, I've played with the treble and presence knobs to no end, and found where it sounds it's best (balancing between too much fizz and not enough definition/clarity).  Is it possible to attach the patch file here so you guys can see what I've got thus far?


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