Pitch shift weirdness

[rd2rk]

For simple E to Eb downtuning, using either the Simple Pitch or Pitch Wham.

 

At higher volumes it sounds fine. But at low volumes (apartment level), higher notes seem to be a combination of the natural guitar pitch (E tuning) and the downtuned pitch (Eb tuning). I discovered this when I tried using a EHX Pitch Fork between the 1/4" out and my Alto TS210. I thought it was the EHX, and couldn't understand why, if both pitches are coming from the EHX, why would the downtuned pitch overpower the straight pitch at higher volumes? Then I started playing around with the Helix shifters and got the same results. This is true regardless of where I use a volume control in the signal chain - channel, effect, main volume knob, Alto volume control, doesn't matter. And, no, it's not the guitar itself that I'm hearing, that's a THIRD sound. I even tried putting the EHX directly in front of my (real) Engl amp. Same thing. Then I tried the pitch shifter in my HD Pro X (haven't sold it yet..), SAME THING! In all cases the blend/mix is set at 100% wet.

 

So, to summarize, all of the pitch shifters I've tried, at low volume, seem to be outputting a little of the straight guitar tone, which is overpowered at higher volumes. EHX can't explain it, L6 support (to whom I demoed the phenomenon over the phone) can't explain it either. I've pursued this on the usual slew of gear forums, those few who've noticed it with the Pitch Fork have referred to it as a "reverby" artifact.

 

Would someone else try this and see if maybe my location in space and time hasn't shifted into a parallel universe? 

[WickedFinger]

EQ is relative to volume level and frequencies change in perspective. Low end takes and requires wattage so the more wattage, the lower end is more powerful and pronounced, at lower volumes using far less wattage is being generated to push the low end. That's all I can think of regarding the issue if I am understanding it correctly.

(That is the very reason I hate low wattage amps, they have tired to market younger players that wattage is loudness when in fact wattage is needed for headroom, clarity and most important LOW end. The rule of physics is for every doubling of watts there is only a +3db increase in loudness potential. )

Biggest "female dog"  on the Helix, is the copy of monophonic tracking octaves and pitch shifters, "glitchmasters", as I call them. There are so many relatively lower priced octave units using polyphonic tracking like the EHX TuningFork, tc Sub N Up, all the tuner pedals that detune fret steps, all polyphonic tuners like tc now under $100. For the love of whatever, if you are going to copy a Whammy pedal why would you copy the early models with the bad buffer and monophonic glitchout tracking?? The new Whammy V is true bypass and polyphonic tracking and the dual unit has the new drop tuning circuit as well! 

Stop the copy mimic of cheese low end effects using the state of the art modeling technology and give us some polyphonic tracking effects, who cares if they are a copy mimic of anything, just that they work! 

[rd2rk]

WickedFinger said:

 

"EQ is relative to volume level and frequencies change in perspective. Low end takes and requires wattage so the more wattage, the lower end is more powerful and pronounced, at lower volumes using far less wattage is being generated to push the low end."

 

Sounded like a good explanation, so I tested by changing from -1 to +1. Nope. It's still the SHIFTED note (which is now HIGHER) that comes to the fore.

[davidb7170]

At higher volume you're not hearing the physical strings at their nonshifted tuning, at low volume you are, so your hear the disonance. Try it with headphones from your Helix at higher and lower volumes. If they isolate you from hearing your physical strings, you should only hear the shifted notes. If you still hear the actual tuning, check your mix settings on the pitch block and make sure it's at 100%. Also make sure you don't have some parallel path that carries the nonshifted signal mixed into the shifted signal.

 

It's an issue that us Variax users deal with when using alternate tunings.

 

Dave

[rd2rk]

DavidB7170:

 

Thanks, but like I said, it's not the guitar itself that I'm hearing, that's a THIRD sound.

 

What's driving me nuts is that it happens with Helix, HD Pro X, AND the Pitch Fork, and it's always the shifted (+ or -) signal that's dominant at higher volume. Also, it can't be a parallel path because I even tried putting the EHX directly in front of my (real) Engl amp. Same thing.

 

I'm hoping that someone will take a minute to try this, to actually HEAR what I'm talking about. If someone comes up with a solution for one, it'll probably be the same solution for all, but several hours of trying everything I can think of, I'm at a loss!

[HonestOpinion]

I know this is unlikely but what kind of guitar/pickups are you using? Just want to make sure you don't have a "ghost" piezo or something like that generating an unexpected signal. Does this happen with headphones? Could have a "microphonic" tube on your Engl amp generating some extra nastiness but you said this is happening on your Alto as well.

[rd2rk]

Duncan Hot Rod set on the Ibanez, the stock Steinbergers (EMG HSH copies) on the Steinie, and my Strat is a Hiway 1. Yep, happens with headphones, just harder to hear the "third" sound (the strings).

[rd2rk]

Gonna BUMP this in hopes that one of the Line6 guys will give it a shot....

[WickedFinger]

Can't you adjust the mix of the processed and dry signals to compensate, hard to fathom how everything is so uncontrollable.  What is the "third" tone? 

The combined tone is always going to be louder and volume or mix does not help? I cannot really understand the problem so I will let others venture. 

[Rocco_Crocco]

Can you record the tone direct to DAW then post?

 

I am sorry but i am not convinced that you're not hearing the physical unamplified sound of the strings mingling with the amplified notes creating a sonic "weirdness" that is being perceived as a third sound.

 

I went through this myself with the Variax... The amplified signal really needs to be pretty loud to overcome this phenomenon... Louder that what i would consider a bedroom level.

 

Please dont take offense... Just trying to completely rule out the simplest possibility first.

[rd2rk]

Not offended guys - thanks for the help.

 

Rocco - I took your suggestion to try and record the phenom, recording into Sonar via USB 1/2 from the Helix. IT DOES NOT RECORD! The recorded sound is perfect! Yet, direct monitoring (Helix to Rokits OR DAW to Rokits - the levels are different so I know which I'm hearing from the Rokits - while I'm playing/recording is wonky! Here's the setup:

 

Guitar into Guitar input, bass into AUX. 1/4" out to Alto speaker, XLR to KRK Rokits.

 

I took a split off the end of Path 2 (Input AUX/BASS - same results if I run the test with Guitar from Path 1), sending the 1/4" Out on 2A to the Alto and 2B Out to USB 1/2.

 

Sonar input channel set to 1/2 Stereo (HELIX USB Out Centered, makes no difference Right or Left).

 

Globals - "USB In 1/2 Destination" set to XLR (default?), all else at defaults (I think - don't remember changing anything).

 

This is interesting since, as I mentioned (and I tried it again just to be sure I'm not crazy), using a EHX Pitch Fork set up Bass to Pitch Fork to regular guitar amp (or direct to the Alto) no Helix, same problem, using Guitar or bass.

 

So, it seems that, regardless of which Pitch device I use into what system, Audio reproduction is weird, but digital recording (Helix as interface, don't have another to test simple guitar/PF/DAW) is perfect!

 

In all of these tests I've listened VERY carefully for the acoustic string sound, the third sound I mentioned, which, at low volume, is distinctly audible. At higher volumes, the shifted sound drowns out both the string sound (with or without headphones) and the unshifted sound, but the unshifted sound is still there, just not amplified as is the shifted sound.

 

I realize that the experiments with the Pitch Fork direct to amp takes this out of the realm of a strictly Helix problem, so I guess that what I'm really looking for are any ideas as to why it should be an Audio vs Digital thing.

 

I know, it makes no sense. And yet, it is. I'm still entertaining the parallel universe theory......