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Creating Models From Scratch

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#1 sudiptasingh

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 04:59 PM

Why not open up the HD model software so that users can create their own guitars, bodies, pickups... In short Workbench on steroids. I hear the griping about Strats 1.9 and 2.0 - why not model EXACTLY the sound you want ? :-) I understand if there is IP Line 6 wants to protect - but surely "open sourcing" the HD models would be a great thing! I am sure most users wouldn't want to go to the level of sampling guitar waveforms and tweaking fft parameters - but enough might!
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#2 phil_m

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:09 PM

I guess I'm not sure of what you mean by the "from scratch" part... Are you envisioning a bigger library of guitar bodies and pickups that people can choose from?


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#3 sudiptasingh

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:19 PM

Well .. Yes - apart from the 29 guitars modeled, and the library of "components" (bodies, pickups, pots) - why not open up the software so users can create ( and paint) completely new guitar types ( pedal steel anyone?), components, etc. As a flight and train simmer it's always really cool to watch people building new planes, scenery , locomotives - not just tweaking from a admittedly large palette.
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#4 clay-man

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 05:59 PM

The presets, bodies pots and pickups are coded in the firmware. A preset doesn't carry the algorithm codes and all, it just tells the variax what settings you're using, as in it picks the bodies pickups and pot values and applies that to the coding inside the variax's firmware to give you the sound you get.

 

A preset is nothing more than values for variables with the firmware to work with.

 

What your asking would possibly require a mass rewrite and is way too complicated.

Work with what you got. I agree there should be more bodies and pickups perhaps, but painting a guitar? Making guitar bodies? That's impossible unless you know how to model guitars in their programming yourself.

 

I made an SG preset out of a junior LP body and LP pickups rolled back towards the bridge. It sounds pretty spot on. I also made a Baritone Jaguar preset. I'm pretty sure you can come close to stuff if you just try.


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#5 sudiptasingh

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:52 PM

I understand the point you're making. Please just consider that there is a vast amount of talent out on this planet that is very comfortable with programming and customizing code (even firmware) to extend its capabilities. Just look at custom ROMs people have developed for mobile phones, game emulators and so on. Opening up the software to this community would enable Line6 to tap into this pool and get additional functionality to add to their core platform or even generate revenue for developers building new add-ons. Think Apple/ MS Flight Simulator or X-plane etc. Not to mention getting more beta testers and a rich and thriving ecosystem around their core product.
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#6 sudiptasingh

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 06:56 PM

Just sayin.... :-)
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#7 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:00 PM

You're smoking rope if you think that's going to happen.


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#8 clay-man

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 07:40 PM

Yeah, basically what you're asking is if you can code the firmware yourself. What you're asking for requires a lot of memory from the presets. Like I said, that's way too complicated to do.

 

Workbench is supposed to be what you're asking, just at a feasible scale. If you're not satisfied with your tone then you should use an EQer.

Other than that, more bodies and pickups, but asking to adjust every little nuance is insane.


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#9 ozbadman

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 09:38 PM

I understand the point you're making. Please just consider that there is a vast amount of talent out on this planet that is very comfortable with programming and customizing code (even firmware) to extend its capabilities. Just look at custom ROMs people have developed for mobile phones, game emulators and so on. Opening up the software to this community would enable Line6 to tap into this pool and get additional functionality to add to their core platform or even generate revenue for developers building new add-ons. Think Apple/ MS Flight Simulator or X-plane etc. Not to mention getting more beta testers and a rich and thriving ecosystem around their core product.

 

This is technically already possible.

 

A JTV is just a computer in a guitar body. Its code is downloaded from a PC through the interface cable. If someone were sufficiently interested, they could look at the chips on the JTV, disassemble the existing JTV code, and write their own JTV firmware. Line 6 is not stopping them.

 

But it's never going to happen. Beyond the programming, you have to learn the domain: how to model different guitar bodies, pickup positions, process the piezos, etc. Line 6 has had professionals working on it full time for over a decade, and they've done a remarkably good job.


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#10 clay-man

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:35 PM

This is technically already possible.

 

A JTV is just a computer in a guitar body. Its code is downloaded from a PC through the interface cable. If someone were sufficiently interested, they could look at the chips on the JTV, disassemble the existing JTV code, and write their own JTV firmware. Line 6 is not stopping them.

 

But it's never going to happen. Beyond the programming, you have to learn the domain: how to model different guitar bodies, pickup positions, process the piezos, etc. Line 6 has had professionals working on it full time for over a decade, and they've done a remarkably good job.

 

I was going to say that you could hack the firmware, but that would be insane to mess with. You'd need to reverse engineer everything.

The problem with this is that you don't have the source code obviously. 

Hacking the firmware could possibly brick your JTV too. It's not really feasible unless you're that insane.


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#11 ozbadman

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 10:44 PM

I was going to say that you could hack the firmware, but that would be insane to mess with. You'd need to reverse engineer everything.

The problem with this is that you don't have the source code obviously. 

Hacking the firmware could possibly brick your JTV too. It's not really feasible unless you're that insane.

 

I couldn't agree more. I was just pointing out the level of complexity, and the fact that if anyone was crazy enough to want to do it, they already could without Line 6 changing anything. Line 6 didn't start with Source Code originally either.


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#12 clay-man

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:40 PM

I couldn't agree more. I was just pointing out the level of complexity, and the fact that if anyone was crazy enough to want to do it, they already could without Line 6 changing anything. Line 6 didn't start with Source Code originally either.

 

Well the source code is the file that is editable to the programmers, not yet exported as the firmware file. That means it can still be open with the editing software and tweaked with it. Once you compile the source code it's not readable by the editing software, but is used to actually run as a process, in this case the Variax's DSP.

 

I'm sure they used something to write up the algorithms/convolutions to model the guitars and other stuff. It would be pretty hard and ridiculous to code in raw computing language (hexadecimal/binary)


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#13 ozbadman

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:50 PM

Well the source code is the file that is editable to the programmers, not yet exported as the firmware file. That means it can still be open with the editing software and tweaked with it. Once you compile the source code it's not readable by the editing software, but is used to actually run as a process, in this case the Variax's DSP.

 

I'm sure they used something to write up the algorithms/convolutions to model the guitars and other stuff. It would be pretty hard and ridiculous to code in raw computing language (hexadecimal/binary)

 

I think you missed my point. When Line 6 started this process, they started like the rest of us: 0 lines of Source Code (ignoring startup libraries, etc.). There's nothing stopping someone else from doing the same thing. (FWIW, I am a former embedded software engineer, working in assembler and higher level languages).


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#14 clay-man

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Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:59 PM

I think you missed my point. When Line 6 started this process, they started like the rest of us: 0 lines of Source Code (ignoring startup libraries, etc.). There's nothing stopping someone else from doing the same thing. (FWIW, I am a former embedded software engineer, working in assembler and higher level languages).

 

You mean a custom firmware from scratch?


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#15 ozbadman

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:01 AM

You mean a custom firmware from scratch?

 

I'm saying that's how Line 6 started, so yeah, if someone wanted to replicate what Line 6 had done, that's what they could do.


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#16 clay-man

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:29 AM

I'm saying that's how Line 6 started, so yeah, if someone wanted to replicate what Line 6 had done, that's what they could do.

 

Well, I know, but you'd have to know how the hardware works and all, something Line 6 knows because they're the one that made the guitar. 

 

This person is asking for additional stuff though, and making new firmware from scratch would throw out all the features of the real firmware out the window.


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#17 ozbadman

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 01:48 AM

Well, I know, but you'd have to know how the hardware works and all, something Line 6 knows because they're the one that made the guitar. 

 

This person is asking for additional stuff though, and making new firmware from scratch would throw out all the features of the real firmware out the window.

 

That's my point. You can't just "open up the modelling" like is being asked for. You could open up certain parameters, but that's effectively what they're doing by providing different bodies, pickups, angles, positions, etc. Even adding an api would require the end-user to understand the problem domain to a much higher level than your average guitarist wants to. You could possibly add customisation of elements like pickup inductance, resistance, body resonances, etc., but that really depends on how their current algorithms work. If they're not component based, all that goes out the window.

 

The point is, they already provide the ability to vary the things they think are useful to an end-user. They could possibly provide other things, but what they are is algorithm specific and only Line 6 knows what they would be. Beyond that, everything rapidly gets much harder, and if someone really wants to do it, they could do so right now. But, we seem to be going around in circles somewhat.

 

Me, I'm happy they provide the ability to cutomize the tones at all. Pretty amazing really.


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#18 jpmull

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 03:38 AM

Maybe they could add functionality similar to the Kemper Profiling amp?

In my opinion, I have more than enough options to play with, given the original models and the flexibility Workbemch offers. I would rather spend time learning how to play better than have a zillion options to tweak or sort through a million models created by other users. Not that it's not fun to experiment, but I only have so much time in a day!
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#19 ReverendLove

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:02 AM

How should that work?
Every single part, the bodies, the pickups even the pots and caps are represented as mathematical formulas and algorithms. That is called physical modeling. So: From scratch means that you build your own mathematical rules such as for an active pick up. That isn't anything what a consumer can do unless he is a firmware programmer and at the same time an engineer for electronics, mechanics and acoustics.

Yes. The only solution would be to hack the code of the firmware.

 


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#20 clay-man

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 04:08 AM

Maybe they could add functionality similar to the Kemper Profiling amp?

In my opinion, I have more than enough options to play with, given the original models and the flexibility Workbemch offers. I would rather spend time learning how to play better than have a zillion options to tweak or sort through a million models created by other users. Not that it's not fun to experiment, but I only have so much time in a day!

 

I've thought about them doing that, but I think modeling a guitar is more complicated than modeling an amp, and there's reasons.

Modeling an amp is pretty simple since you can send a raw signal through the amp to play, then record how the amp sounds.

 

With a guitar, you can't feed a pick up a "raw signal". I'm sure there's some ways to get the frequency response of a pickup, but it's not as easy as an amp.

A regular guitarist doesn't have the tools at their disposal to possibly profile a guitar correctly.

With an amp, you just need a cable and a mic to record how the amp sounds.


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