Jump to content


Photo

Odd Popping Sound


  • Please log in to reply
71 replies to this topic

#21 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:37 PM

...before I added the AD8, I never had any rf issues of any kind regardless of position.  The AD8 addition may be a coincidence, but I don't know of anything else that has changed.

 

Please forgive me if what I'm about to ask strikes you as being overly obvious, ...it's just that I must admit to quite a few occasions (over the last forty or so years) when overlooking the obvious has had me "chasing my own tail"...

 

Are you absolutely certain that your AD8 is powered ?  No fractured or blown fuses ?

 

 

I'm considering buying a Shure GLX-D to try out.  

 

I'm sure you'll try before you buy, so I'd really value your observations when you've had a chance to compare these two competing 2.4GHz digital systems.

 

Speaking of 2.4GHz digital, some readers may not be aware that the simultaneous inter-operation of such systems from different manufacturers (within a given venue) is very likely to induce catastrophic RF-induced failures in both (or all) of them.

 

So, unc417, should you end up preferring the GLX-D, you'll most likely need to replace your entire wireless inventory.  

 

 

 


  • 0

#22 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:52 PM

It is powered.

 

There are a few things about the gld that I do like, but a few things I do not like as well. I would prefer to stay with what I've got. I'm not sure of how to get a new unit to try for free, but either way, I know not to use different systems simultaneously.

Thanks


  • 0

#23 dboomer

dboomer

    Line 6 Staff

  • Moderator
  • 2521 posts

Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:38 AM

Speaking of 2.4GHz digital, some readers may not be aware that the simultaneous inter-operation of such systems from different manufacturers (within a given venue) is very likely to induce catastrophic RF-induced failures in both (or all) of them.

 So yes you could get enough interference that might take you off the air ... but it will not cause audio artifacts in Line 6 (not so for other brands I've tested :) )



#24 dboomer

dboomer

    Line 6 Staff

  • Moderator
  • 2521 posts

Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:43 AM

No the sound does not change based on power.

 

It's always been there.  It must be something environmental, all 7 systems were purchased at different times, from multiple sources. I doubt that they would all have the same defect.

 

Yes on the cable.

So much for easy answers!

 

I think we have two issues ... the AD-8 and the popping.

 

I would suggest sending swapping it out for another unit or returning it for service.  It sounds like you may had a hardware issue.

 

As far as the noise issue.  Is the wav file that you sent to me directly off the output of the receiver?  I'm not able to download it and can only listen.  It sounds very compressed so I need to get an isolated recording that I can download.



#25 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 08 June 2013 - 03:48 PM

 So yes you could get enough interference that might take you off the air ... but it will not cause audio artifacts in Line 6 (not so for other brands I've tested :) )

 

A hearty "What he said !" from me.

 

My Line 6 gear "soldiered on", with silent "mini fade out" drop-outs only being induced when another manufacturer's (about one-third more expensive, with fewer features) "demonstration" transmitter was brought to within a few metres of my Line 6 receivers.

 

Reversing the situation proved to be most unflattering to the dearer wireless system.

 

BTW Don, we established that unc417's sample was obtained directly from the rear panel output of the vocalist's receiver in our previous discussion in the "old" forums.  


  • 0

#26 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:36 PM

Update for today:

 

Today's performance experienced a few dropouts. Today was rf1 low power, except high power on one unit that consistently has the worst rf problems. I also changed channels on that unit. It did not help.  I was using the standard whip antennas on the AD8.  A couple observations:

1) rf issues typically occur when the singer is on the rear of the stage, about 70 ft distance. When they approach the front of the stage rf improves, at 50 ft. I say typically because the problem unit mentioned above still experienced dropouts from the closer range.

2) A/B indicators are fairly consistent and strong, as far as I can tell. I did not notice any dropouts there. Regardless of that fact, the rf led column still drops. 

 

The original problem and reason for this post was the quality of the audio, with the clicky sound. I'm still at a loss there but I will still perform whatever diagnostics you can suggest. Right now though my main concern is reliable rf.  If the A/B indicators are telling me signal strength is good, but the rf column tells me rf quality is bad, that sounds as if something else is transmitting where it shouldn't be.  All transmitters are on rf1 mode, I doublechecked for a mixture of rf1/2.  I have no other equipment in the wifi band, other than wifi itself.  RF1 is supposed to handle wifi, and indeed turning the wifi system off gives no improvements in performance. 

 

My next step is to remove the AD8 and return to the built in distros and see if performance returns to it's previously reliable state.

 

Thanks


  • 0

#27 dboomer

dboomer

    Line 6 Staff

  • Moderator
  • 2521 posts

Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

Did you read my paper about "near/far issues? Check the knowledge base. If you have a group of transmitters near the antennas and one far from them you may get dropouts under that condition. It's not that the far mic won't work at that distance but rather that the closer transmitters drown it out so to speak. You may need to split your antennas up a bit more and get one upstage.

I still need an answer about the wav file from my last post. I can't hear the problem without downloading and analyzing a clean file that has zero processing and has the wireless signal only.

#28 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 09 June 2013 - 07:21 PM

Yes I am familiar with near/far.  I didn't consider that the difference between 50ft and 70ft was enough to cause near/far?  If so, my original confusion remains. My stage setup has not changed since introducing line6 to my band.

 

Yes the file is recorded directly off the receiver. Can you right click on the wav link and download from there? I'm not sure how else to get it to you.


  • 0

#29 dboomer

dboomer

    Line 6 Staff

  • Moderator
  • 2521 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 06:41 AM

Can you email it to me ... dboomer@line6.com?

With near far... How far away are the other transmitters from the antennas. It's the ratio that matters. Try it with one antenna upstage in the middle and the other in a wing for example.

#30 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:09 AM

I will email it, thanks.

 

I don't think that my stage is all that unusual, fairly small. If the mics aren't designed to work spread out on a 30ftwide/25ft deep stage I'm not sure that's reasonable. I'm certain near/far shouldn't be an issue, until the past couple weeks rf has been extremely reliable.  Yesterday's performance used 4 of the line6 mics.  But remember the most troublesome unit also had several complete dropouts on the front of the stage, at it's closest distance and on hi power, while at the same time the other 3 units were reliable at the middle or back of the stage. 

Thanks


  • 0

#31 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 10 June 2013 - 07:57 AM

If the mics aren't designed to work spread out on a 30ft wide/25ft deep stage I'm not sure that's reasonable.

 

I'm heartily in agreement with you on that, unc417...

 

Especially as I've had great success (over two years now) in regularly operating eight of my nine XD-V systems simultaneously into P180 paddles that are receiving my handhelds and beltpacks from a distance of 100 metres, ...outside their specified range.

 

Having dwelt on this bizarre and unique set of problems for months now, I feel I'm left with just two comments to make:

  1. RF loss (rather than gain) when whip antennae are replaced with P180s via an XD-AD8: I find it hard to believe that the cabling and/or other aspects of this installation can possibly be correct ...and
  2. Low level "popping" without a discernible time constant and the recent incidence of dropouts: To my mind these have now proven unlikely to be resolved without an on-site analysis by suitably equipped and qualified personnel, rather than in any forum such as this.

  • 0

#32 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

To clarify the whip vs p180. I'm not certain the whips on the AD8 are any better or worse than using the p180. My initial shock was that I received any dropouts at all with the p180. I changed back to the whips to compare better for this last performance.  I'll update again after Wednesdays practice with the AD8 removed.

 

The pop sound is usually not heard in the house during live performance, at least not from my foh position. Though I have heard it through the mix before. I do pick up on the sound much clearer in the recordings though.

 

I'm open to an onsite analysis, I'm not sure what equipment is needed or what technician to contact given the wifi band and digital nature of these mics.

Thanks


  • 0

#33 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 13 June 2013 - 04:56 PM

After Wednesdays practice on the standard whips using the built in distros, 2 chains, rf performance was better.  It wasn't perfect, there were fluctuations in the rf column, but no complete dropouts. As an experiment, fluctuations seemed less noticeable with the wifi system off.  


  • 0

#34 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 14 June 2013 - 07:17 AM

Hello again from the Antipodes, unc417..

 

Sorry about the delayed reply to the query below, but other projects distracted me. (I simply forgot.)

 

I'm open to an onsite analysis, I'm not sure what equipment is needed or what technician to contact given the wifi band and digital nature of these mics.

Thanks

 

Running through my mind when I wrote...

 

Low level "popping" without a discernible time constant and the recent incidence of dropouts: To my mind these have now proven unlikely to be resolved without an on-site analysis by suitably equipped and qualified personnel, rather than in any forum such as this.

 

...was the fervent hope that you might first of all have access to a local operator of Line 6 XD-V gear who could maybe cast an expert eye over your entire installation, with a specific view to the disposition of your P180 paddle antennae, your cabling and your implementation of the XD-AD8.

 

Should that initial expert analysis shed no further light, further investigation of your low-level "popping" and variations to your RF and/or corruption of your transmitted data stream would probably entail suitably qualified staff using

  1. An RF test set for the accurate investigation of both field strength and local interference in the relevant spectrum and
  2. A suitably sensitive oscilloscope for the detailed "snapshot" analysis of both received data and analog audio waveforms.

In the event that the Line 6 Support "crew" can't recommend providers of those types of expertise in your area, the A.E.S. might be worth a look: http://www.aes.org/member/search/


  • 0

#35 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:20 PM

Tonight's practice was typical.  Using the built in distros and standard whip antennas, rf performance was solid but the pops were more noticeable than average.  I'm not familiar with the procedures involving the AES. There are 3 members listed for NC.  Are you suggesting I attempt to hire one of these members to do an on site analysis?

 

As much as I enjoy these v70 systems, I'm not prepared to commit a significant portion of money to this troubleshooting as I have many other things I'm saving money for. I'm not sure swapping 7 v70s for 7 GLD's wouldn't be the smarter choice. Though I prefer not to have to consider that. I'm waiting and monitoring reviews when available on that system as it's new, but for the time being, I welcome any other troubleshooting tips I can perform.

 

Thanks for your time.


  • 0

#36 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:22 AM

I'm not prepared to commit a significant portion of money to this troubleshooting as I have many other things I'm saving money for.

 

That's odd, unc417...

 

...As the rest of us all have money to burn. (We're only using some of the cheapest wireless gear around to avoid flaunting our untold wealth.) :lol:  

 

I'm not sure swapping 7 v70s for 7 GLD's wouldn't be the smarter choice. 

 

It strikes me that doing so may only put you even further out of pocket, without there being any guarantee whatsoever that whatever nastiness is lurking in your woodpile won't then "leap out" to attack your replacement GLDs.

 

I'm not familiar with the procedures involving the AES. There are 3 members listed for NC.  Are you suggesting I attempt to hire one of these members to do an on site analysis?

 

Not "hire", ...just seek advice. In my experience, my sort of audio boffin (several of whom populate the AES ) has a tendency to be fascinated by this sort of challenge and so is happy to help. (If the person you end up asking is not "conveniently" local, they may well know of someone else who is.)

 

I had also hoped that, by now, Line 6 support may have pointed you to a locally based client or "expert user" who may have cast an eye over what's really going on.

 

As you've seen from our extensive correspondence so far, I regularly operate my nine XD-V (8x70 & 1x75) systems in truly horrendous environments, (both RF and physical) bumping them around the wilds of Australia in an endless series of "one night stands". They consistently continue to operate flawlessly over longer ranges (via P180 paddle antennae) than can reasonably be expected.

 

As you know, there are also thousands more working worldwide.

 

Hence, as

  1. I am unaware of any others that exhibit the combination of problems that you report and
  2. I cannot understand the logic behind your diagnostic attempts to date,

a more expert analysis from someone actually "on the spot" would seem to be required for any solution to emerge.


  • 0

#37 dboomer

dboomer

    Line 6 Staff

  • Moderator
  • 2521 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 01:16 PM

There are simple tests that you can do yourself.  Have you tried running them in a different venue?  that could go a long way determining whether the problem is hardware or local conditions.  Have you tried into a different playback system (especially a different mixer?)



#38 unc417

unc417

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 61 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:34 PM

I have considered a different venue but I don't have another one that I work in. I will take advantage of an opportunity if I find one.

 

I have recorded the samples directly from the receiver, would a different mixer matter?


  • 0

#39 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:37 PM

... would a different mixer matter?

 

No.


  • 0

#40 RonMarton

RonMarton

    Power User

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 1275 posts
  • LocationSydney, Australia.

Posted 20 June 2013 - 02:54 PM

...I have recorded the samples directly from the receiver, would a different mixer matter?

 

I should have said, "No...

 

...UNLESS your mixer was also "hanging across" (somehow being in parallel with) your receiver's output when the sample in question was being recorded."

 

Resolving that kind of issue (among a possible myriad of others) is the sort of thing that I had in mind when I suggested that

 

 

...a more expert analysis from someone actually "on the spot" would seem to be required for any solution to emerge.


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users