MIc Level XLR output is high. Q for DI?

[brue58ski]

Kind of a long story but here goes. I have used all of my floorboard FX gizmo's (XT, X3 and HD500X) to go direct. I have always used the XLR out's and set them to mic level. I inherited a Shure analog 4 channel mixer that has a mic out setting and an internal tone generator. I have a mixing board that my floorboards go into.

So, to get mic level, I send to the inputs of my mixer, the mic level tone from my Shure "mic level tone generator" with the VU's on it set to 0dB. I then set the VU's on my mixing board to 0dB from that mic level 0dB tone. I then hook up my floorboard up to the same inputs of the mixer. That way, when I adjust my levels from the unit, I know that when I hit 0dB on the meter, I'm at mic level. I did this with the Helix with the Volume knob at noon, had the XLR output's Global Settings level set to mic and the output level of the Global EQ at 0dB. I also ran the outputs in the Helix matirx at 0dB. That's what all of the output settings of the Helix were when I originally created all of my patches. I had to run the amps Channel Level outputs at around 2.5-3.0 to get mic level with those settings. I thought it was a little low but I was OK with it. Then I discovered that you can disconnect the Volume knob from controlling the XLR outputs to only controlling the 1/4" (love it). But now, with the XLR Global Setitings set to Mic, I have to lower the Global EQ level to -13 dB to get all of my patches back to mic level.  That or lower the Channel level of each patch to less than 2.0. I deal with auidio for a living and 0dB is the reference level. Since everything else is set to 0 dB, that indicates to me that the mic level setting for the XLR's is very high. Based on my Global EQ setting, 13dB too high. There is no way to control the XLR level only, other than the Mic/Line  switch in the Global Settings menu that I can see. Is this the way it's supposed to be or should I send this to a support ticket?

[DunedinDragon]

Does your mixer not have a gain or sensitivity setting to adjust for line sensitivity on each channel?  I understand the process you seem to be going through but it's at odds with the typical way one would gain stage a signal.

 

What throws me off in your process is the "mic level tone generator".  I'm assuming it's sending some sort of constant level signal, but no two mics or signals ever send the same level in actual usage.  It varies mic to mic and singer to singer or mic'd amp to mic'd amp.  We have four singers and four instruments coming into our board all on XLR.  We adjust the gain on each channel to get the signal levels consistent across all channels while the person is playing or singing.  That results in the gain knob settings being different for each channel and ensures all signal levels are relatively equal so each channel fader can safely be set to unity with plenty of headroom.  That would be the typical way of gain staging on every mixer I've ever seen, but that depends on having a gain or sensitivity adjustment at the beginning of the signal chain to adjust the actual live input level for each instrument/voice.

 

Or maybe I'm just not understanding the theory of what you're trying to do here.

[brue58ski]

Have you ever normalized a mixing board out in the field or in a studio? I f you haven't, I'm not sure what to tell you. Yes, I can adjust the trim to make the levels OK for my mixer. But, I'm trying to give the sound guy a consistent level for his mixer. And a level that's close to what you would get, if it was a miced amp. And since you'd normally mic an amp, I have chosen to make a mic level signal to come out of the XLR's. This is what you would get if you miced an amp anyway. The Shure mixer I have has two level choices for the output, line and mic. And it has it's own tone generator. So if I turn on the tone generator and set the output level to 0dB with the switch on mic level; then, adjusting the trim level on the mixer to 0dB with the sliders at 0, gives me a range to shoot for. I adjust my Helix output levels so that they all are at around 0dB on the mixer without touching any of the sliders or trim on my mixing board. Theoretically, this is what you would get if you miced an amp. I understand what you're confused about but it would take a lot of time to go into what I'm doing if you don't understand. It would be much easier and take less time if we were sitting having a couple of beers. Which I would not be opposed to at all. Again, the idea is to give the sound guy at a different venue with a different mixer a consistent level that would be the same as if it were a miced amp. Yes amps and voices will have different levels and hit the mic differently. The cool thing aout the Helix is it makes it easier for the sound guy since I can make everything coming to him very close to the same level. It makes it a little easier to mix. And the fact that I have to lower the level by 13dB tells me that the mic level setting coming out of the Helix is set too high. But maybe I am wrong. I am experienced but I'm not egotistical enough to think I couldn't be wrong. Like that sound guy  thread where he wouldn't take a direct feed. I dont' get that at all. Also the digtial revolution has created a world where there are several different levels that are considered standard. I think that's why alot of CD's levels are so drastically different from one to another. My main reason for questioning this is to get a high signal to noise ratio out of this thing. I can give him a mic level signal, but I wish I could have the settings higher so the S?N ratio is better.

[Joepeggio]

Just a question to help my understanding...

 

When the mixer set to mic out sending a tone at 0 db, what voltage does that equate to?

 

Reason for asking is....

 

"For the SM58, the frequency range to first exhibit distortion is centered around 100 Hz, close to the resonant frequency of the microphone's diaphragm. At 100 Hz, the measured MAX SPL is 150 dB SPL and the electrical output of the microphone is 0 dB V or 1.0 volts. Note this is a line level signal, not a mic level signal."

 

Quoted from Shure website.  

 

An sm58 can put out a full line level signal at 0db.   So the Helix is modeling very loud amps (120db or so) with a mic at 1 inch.  Maybe the mics were actually measured putting out a voltage higher then the standard mic level reference you are using.  If you can, take a 100 watt marshall and crank it full and measure that against the mixer.  It would be a good experiment.  Typically, when when I used to mic an amp, that amp was putting out maybe 100 db at the speaker (still very loud for stage).  That level may be the level you are expecting?

 

Not sure off all this but just some thoughts.

[brue58ski]

Yes, line level 0dB is 1 volt. I can't remember off hand what a mic level 0dB is. The Shure mixer I use is a pro level piece of equipment that I've used at work for years to ring out lines and set levels. And again, 13dB is alot to bring down, especially since I'm already running the Channel level low. And I would hope that when they were setting the mic output level for the Helix, they would have used a pro level tone generator and not some miced amp.

[Joepeggio]

i totally understand.  sent my xlr into a focurite octopre (i think).  signal was too hot.  set xlr to mic and still too hot without a pad.

 

it would be nice if line 6 put output level adjustments for each individual output type in addition to the line / mic setting.  

 

im just thinking maybe the amp settings and speaker / mic type actually puts out that high level.  Line 6 trying to be totally accurate as the actual setup output?

[zooey]

If you bypass or remove all the blocks in a patch and set output gain to 0 DB, is it still too hot?

[brue58ski]

Hotter. I have to run the channel level low.

[brue58ski]

Line 6 trying to be totally accurate as the actual setup output?

I would hope so. If not, don't call it mic level.

[Lachdanan0121]

I choose to run my XLR out at mic level as well, for my studio monitors (Event BAS 20/20) are loud as hell.  Even with the monitors turned to their lowest value, and XLR out at MIC level, I can only turn the helix master vol up to about 11 o'clock. NOON is basically unbearable. 

 

I agree the Mic level doesn't seem that much lower than the Line level.  Though I will be fair to state that Gain-staging is something I am still quite novice with, like Compression, and side chaining.

[brue58ski]

My thing is I have my Helix setup so the Volume knob only controls the 1/4" outputs. This makes the XLR outputs set to whatever level Line 6 has set for line or mic. Other than using the global eq level, I have no way to control the XLR output level globally. So if I have the global eq set at 0dB, and the XLR switch set to mic in the global settings, the signal coming out of the XLR's should be at mic level. In order to get that, I have to turn the channel level of my amps BELOW 2. Often around 1. That seems mighty low to me. I do appreciate all the help I'm getting but I really need a response from Line 6 i.e. Digital Igloo to answer my inquiry.

[brue58ski]

I just did one more test. I checked to see what the level would be with nothing in the signal path. Just my Variax guitar. Theoretically that should give me what Line 6's idea of mic level is. I had to lower the Global EQ output by 27dB to get a mic level signal out. That's a lot by any standard.

[jbuhajla]

My thing is I have my Helix setup so the Volume knob only controls the 1/4" outputs. This makes the XLR outputs set to whatever level Line 6 has set for line or mic. Other than using the global eq level, I have no way to control the XLR output level globally. So if I have the global eq set at 0dB, and the XLR switch set to mic in the global settings, the signal coming out of the XLR's should be at mic level. In order to get that, I have to turn the channel level of my amps BELOW 2. Often around 1. That seems mighty low to me. I do appreciate all the help I'm getting but I really need a response from Line 6 i.e. Digital Igloo to answer my inquiry.

Maybe opening a support ticket or contacting technical support directly may be needed. 

[phil_m]

I think that the XLR outs on Line 6 devices have always tended be a little hotter than a typical mic, but mic level is really a range. It can be anywhere from -60dBV to -40dBV, but even that's not set in stone. I find that I need to add very little gain, if any, on the channel strip most of the time, even with the XLR outs set to mic level. I remember Ben Adrian wrote on TGP that he creates all his patches with the master volume knob dimed, and keeps the signal running through the Helix relatively low, and only adjusts the level at the output block. There's nothing wrong with running the internal signal path lower - it's all digital, 32-bit floating point, so nothing is clipping internally.

 

The way I see it, the mic and line level designation have less to do with the actual measured level coming from the XLR outs and more to do with what you're connecting to. If you're connecting to a preamp of any sort, you'd want mic level. If you're going directly into a power amp or bypassing the preamp on the board, you'd want line level.

 

As far as the test with just a guitar, I'm not really sure what that shows. Instrument level is higher than mic level, but lower than line level. A better test to gauge the output would be to plug a mic into the Helix's mic in jack, and put nothing in the signal path. That would probably give you a better baseline.

[brue58ski]

Maybe opening a support ticket or contacting technical support directly may be needed.

I did that yesterday.

[ddewees]

I think I am experiencing a similar issue. Last night I tried running from Helix XLR to the board at church. I also used 1/4 out to JBL 610 powered monitor.

 

Sound person said the signal was too hot with the external volume knob at 40-50% so I backed down to about 20-30%. However the JBL could not be heard over the stage wedge with the mix of everyone else (drums, bass, keys, acoustic guitar and vocals). I even cranked JBL to the max and asked that the wedge be turned down.

 

I was unaware of being able to virtually "disconnect" the volume know from the XLR out. That is an option I will try in sound check on Sunday, possibly along with trying to change the XLR out to Mic Level

 

I've never been able to get my guitar sound in the monitor mix with HD500s' in the past. So that is why I have the JBL. Sound person (and associate pastor) has been protective of the board and it's in and upstairs control room so it's not easy access. So I don't know if there really is a way for my trim or or level to be lowered on my channel. 

 

So if I do the above and it's still hot, I'm guessing I would need to back the channel volume down on the patch? For now I'm only using 1 patch so it would be easy to test.

 

Another option I thought of was to continue to feed the XLR to the board but use the Headphone Out to the JBL and have that to control the stage volume. 

 

Thanks.

[zooey]

Inline XLR pads are cheap too, if need be.

[brue58ski]

I think that the XLR outs on Line 6 devices have always tended be a little hotter than a typical mic, but mic level is really a range. It can be anywhere from -60dBV to -40dBV, but even that's not set in stone. I find that I need to add very little gain, if any, on the channel strip most of the time, even with the XLR outs set to mic level. I remember Ben Adrian wrote on TGP that he creates all his patches with the master volume knob dimed, and keeps the signal running through the Helix relatively low, and only adjusts the level at the output block. There's nothing wrong with running the internal signal path lower - it's all digital, 32-bit floating point, so nothing is clipping internally.

 

The way I see it, the mic and line level designation have less to do with the actual measured level coming from the XLR outs and more to do with what you're connecting to. If you're connecting to a preamp of any sort, you'd want mic level. If you're going directly into a power amp or bypassing the preamp on the board, you'd want line level.

 

As far as the test with just a guitar, I'm not really sure what that shows. Instrument level is higher than mic level, but lower than line level. A better test to gauge the output would be to plug a mic into the Helix's mic in jack, and put nothing in the signal path. That would probably give you a better baseline.

 

Boy you guys are tough. This is the last explanation of why or what I am doing. It's just taking too much time.

 

Because a mic level can vary so much, when calibrating a system, you need a standard reference. I am using the same thing I have used professionally mainly for remote events for calibrating meters and ringing out lines. It is a 1kHz generator at +4dBm which is a fairly common standard reference. If you don't know what that means, it means 1.23 volts measured across a 600 ohm resistor. That is for line level. If you don't know what that means, I don't have the time.

 

Your assumption about what you're connecting to isn't really true. For example, my mixer doesn't have a mic or line level switch, it uses it's trim pot to adjust for that. And since it deals with mic levels it must have a preamp. And it still accepts line level. All the more reason I feel I need to use a standard reference signal to calibrate the trim level in order to set accurate levels.

 

As far as the test with just the guitar...sigh...here goes. I consider the Helix a pro level piece of equipment. Which leads me to desire that it would follow certain professional protocols. One is if you label something as a line or mic level output, it SHOULD be mic or line level when everything is set to 0dB and there is nothing else in in the signal path. Your input/output levels should be adjusted to reflect that. If a guitar is plugged into the guitar input. the output should reflect the level it is being called, be it line or mic, if there is nothing else in the signal path and all is set to 0dB. If it isn't, label it as something else. SAME or EQUAL if it's suppose to reflect the same level as the input or whatever it is. But if it's not going to be mic or line level, don't label it as such.

 

Now here's the fly in the ointment. I took your advice to try a mic in the mic input but used my mic level tone generator instead of an actual mic. After all, you need to have a standard reference. Plugged it into the mic input with nothing else in the signal path and all levels set to 0dB and output set to mic. I was expecting the signal to be hot just like it is when the input is my Variax. Or, if your theory about it reflecting the input level; the same i.e. 0dB on the mixer. It was neither. It was...drum roll please....very low! WTF! Specifically I had to turn the Global EQ up 11.5dB for the tone to be 0dB on my board. So, just to experiment I switched the XLR output level in Global Settings to line. Guess what!! It registered 0dB! Well, maybe there is something wrong with my tone generator. Always a possibility. In order to test that I then pluggeded a Shure SM58 mic in and held it just below my mouth approximately 1-2 inches away. Repeating the words check and sibilance (a Waynes World, Tom Hanks, SNL reference. Anyone? Anyone?). My results were the same. Mic level was low. Line level was at mic level. And just to head off an anticipated questoin, yes my mic input level in Global Settings was 0dB. Now I'm really confused. Is anyone from Line 6 reading this? Is this just the way Helix is setup? Or does this need to be corrected?

[brue58ski]

Inline XLR pads are cheap too, if need be.

 

I shouldn't have to do that with a proffesional piece of equipment.

[brue58ski]

Just got an answer from Line 6 in regard to the instrument/Variax inputs/XLR outputs.

This is normal behavior.  When the Volume knob is disconnected from controlling the XLR outputs, they begin to act as if the volume knob is turned up all the way, which results in about +12db mic level.

That's just what I was experiencing. Although it's with running the amp's Channel Level at around 2 which seems low to me.

 

Asked abut the mic input thing. Waiting for a response for that.