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Presets For The 4 Line Ins

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#21 GracefulGideon

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 09:54 AM

Hi, Dave again,

 

I do NOT think Line 6 misled me regarding if the channels 13-16 had mic preamps. That was very clear that it did not. But it is unclear to me why, and there was no mention of the fact that line inputs 13-16 would  crippled as far as signal processing.

 

When I was comparing this to my existing mixer (no names here), there were ups and downs to the two approaches. But my existing mixer had 16 mic inputs and I use all 16. But my thinking was, hey two us use wireless mics, the bass and keys outputs do not need mic pre's so I should be able to get by for this aspect of the comparison. It does not say anywhere that these four have limited processing and all these cool preset could not be applied to this inputs. So I do feel a bit misled in this aspect.

 

Overall, this is a VERY impressive mixer and I am happy with selection and looking forward to showing to a club owner this weekend whom I feel will really like this. But at the same time, I urge Line 6 to consider a firmware update to this item to extend full channel processing to these inputs. Again, especially since you sell a full line of wireless goods which abstract the need for a mic pre.

I don't think I have to defend myself as being a fanboy for line 6. I just don't like having answers given that do not contribute to solving a problem but instead just say "line 6 has done nothing wrong".

no one is trying to "hurt Line 6's feelings" as this device is absoultely amazing and changed the whole way I do mixing.

I am personally an owner of the Dream Stage with the M20D, 2 L3m's, and 2 L3's all linked with L6 link.
Just like Dave, I am continually amazed as to how simple mixing, effects, reverb, etc. have become with this smart mixing ecosystem.

I do, just like I'm sure Dave still does...

 

It does not say anywhere that these four have limited processing and all these cool preset could not be applied to this inputs. So I do feel a bit misled in this aspect.

 

......

But at the same time, I urge Line 6 to consider a firmware update to this item to extend full channel processing to these inputs. Again, especially since you sell a full line of wireless goods which abstract the need for a mic pre.

 

wonder as to what not having mic preamps for 13-16 has to do with not having the same presets available to the 1-12 mic inputs.

In my current situation we have the band plugged into all 12 mic slots with 2 wireless mics plugged into the 13 and 14 inputs.
The problem is that I would like to simply turn on a noise gate and FBS for those wireless mics and I don't see what hardware issue actually would prevent these channels from having those features.

I did not mean any harsh words towards Line 6 or anyone on this forum thread of course lol


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#22 Digital-sound

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:12 AM

I also made the switch from what sounds like the same "nameless" mixer. And I agree with what would be nice, and I believe not too "out there" ideas that duselton mentions. I am also very happy with my switch. And I don't need all of my inputs so I have not noticed any shortcomings with inputs 13-16. What I do miss is a dedicated monitor mix app. The band does ok, but on occasion have adjusted the other guys mix. And, would be better if it worked from an iPhone.

Anyway, this is a "line in" topic. Sorry.
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#23 linesixy

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 10:28 AM

HI GracefulGideon

 

It’s simple… you did accuse Line 6 of doing something wrong.  Check out the following statement:

 

‘… if they do not have preamps in 13-16 then that in itself was misleading.’

 

In reality, it’s the above statement that is misleading.  See jeanpicasso’s comment for the reason why the statement is misleading.  I was merely correcting the point…. purely because incorrect comments do a disservice to Line 6 – and can also confuse potential customers that visit this thread.  That’s all I was trying to do.  For the record, if it had been me that made inaccurate comments, I would have acknowledged my mistake and may also have corrected the relevant post.

 

I’m extremely grateful for the help and advice that I get from people on various forums – including this forum - but I also understand that none of the participants owe me answers to my questions – so I try to be polite in how I make requests... and I expect similar from other users.  Hence, I would never use words like ‘Answer questions such as:’

 

No problem... just explaining.  Hope you're getting great results from your Line6 PA.


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#24 GracefulGideon

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 12:20 PM

linesixy,

I hardly think pointing out that Line 6 does not mention that 13-16 do not have preamps is an accusation or attack.
I love Line 6 and I'm sure they are an innovative enough of a company to appreciate constructive criticism.

But per jeanpicasso's comment 
 

copied from specs information from this site:

 

  • 20 inputs: 18 analog and 2 digital
  • 12 high-performance, digitally controlled, auto-sensing mic/line inputs
  • 4 additional auto-sensing balanced line inputs

I'm not attacking, but that information just does not say anything about the "4 additional auto-sensing balanced line inputs"
not having preamps on the hardware side let alone being anything lesser from the 12 mic/line inputs on the software side.

If Line 6 made the 13-16 inputs lesser hardware-wise (which they did) it should say so in the print.
If this information is expected to be known since line in's don't need preamps that is still not good to just "assume"
the end user knows that because jacks 1-12 can also be line in since they are combo jacks yet have preamps.

I found online a review that says such at http://en.audiofanzi...s/r.108117.html about there only being 12 mic pres.

But that is not an official printed spec from Line 6, it would be nice if they themselves explained that the 4 inputs do not have pres on their website.

As far as having effects is concerned, here http://line6.com/sta...nputsandoutputs they state
that there are "Professional Suite of Dynamics, EQ and FX on Every Channel" yet this is not so unless
it is once again implied that only the first 12 channels have full access to the whole spectrum of effects.

If you think I'm attacking I'm sorry it seemed that way as I'm sure you are a fine and nice human being.
But how does one point out a potential problem without taking a risk of maybe being wrong or it not being a problem at all.
Please accept my apology linesixy as I do not wish to have any hard feelings between us both.

-----------------------------------------------

Nevertheless, we still do not have a professional explanation as to why not having mic pres in 13-16 would have
anything to do with their ability to use the full spectrum of effects on the software side such as FBS, noise gates, eq, etc.

Besides not having mic pres, XLR plug in capability, and phantom power, I see nothing hardware-wise that should
prevent 13-16 from having the same full suite of effects as 1-12.

The only explanation we've obtained so far is that since they are line in and not mics why would we need to clutter the chain with effects that will not be needed anyway.
(such as having the ability to add a noise gate or FBS to a synthesizer which obviously should not experience feedback or noise issues")

But as we've seen from previous posts this is not a good enough explanation. As people who have filled up their
12 "full effect inputs" have no choice but to use any other mics or miced instruments they have on the
remaining 4 line in jacks with considerably less effect processing abilities.

IMHO, what would hurt with allowing this.
Leave it to the user to determine whether they want to add a noise gate to an instrument instead of altogether limiting the options.

In the same way that the DSP chain is not fully customizable at this current firmware iteration I feel this is another drawback that could (easily) in my opinion
allow the musician/sound crew to put whatever DSP they want
on whatever channel they want in whatever order they want
.


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#25 duselton

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:25 PM

I will let this question float for 24 hours while we give Line 6 an opportunity to express is doing comparison using brand and model names is good ediqute. I personally feel that it is not, but the general community feels it would useful, I am willing to offer my personal comparison between the Stagescape and the two main compeititors in my mind. I own one and use the other when I help a friend by mixing his band.


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#26 silverhead

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:30 PM

I will let this question float for 24 hours while we give Line 6 an opportunity to express is doing comparison using brand and model names is good ediqute. I personally feel that it is not, but the general community feels it would useful, I am willing to offer my personal comparison between the Stagescape and the two main compeititors in my mind. I own one and use the other when I help a friend by mixing his band.

 

Feel free to offer your product comparisons here, and feel free to state your opinion about those comparisons, even if it is not favourable to Line 6. I can assure you that Line 6 welcomes feedback of this sort. If it's favourable, of course they love it. If it's not, it gives them clear and valuable direction on a market challenge they face.


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#27 linesixy

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:43 PM

Dave, I seem to recall seeing other comparisons of various manufacturers' products on this forum.  So I'd be surprised if there'd be any objection from Line 6 if you express your opinion on the relative merits of various products - based on your assessment of how the products meet your specific requirements.  That said... of course I can't speak for Line 6.


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#28 ArneLine6

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:10 PM

Since the total amount of DSP power is limited to a fixed amount it is a question of how to distribute the available DSP power. Compared to the standard processing- High Pass- Gate- Compressor- 4 band EQ we have added some power to the microphon input channels (1-12) by having- High Pass-12 band FBS- Gate- Compressor- Dynamic EQ1- Dynamic EQ2- Compressor- 6 Band EQ- Limiter and other configurations like High Pass- Multiband Compressor- 6 Band EQ- Limiter etc.

The line inputs are intended to be line level inputs. The configurations High Pass- Compressor- 3 Band EQ or High Pass- 6 Band EQ are assuming a line input like a keyboard where a noise gate would be unlikely to be used. Of course the inputs 13-16 can still be used with most microphones.


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#29 GracefulGideon

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:39 PM

Since the total amount of DSP power is limited to a fixed amount it is a question of how to distribute the available DSP power. Compared to the standard processing- High Pass- Gate- Compressor- 4 band EQ we have added some power to the microphon input channels (1-12) by having- High Pass-12 band FBS- Gate- Compressor- Dynamic EQ1- Dynamic EQ2- Compressor- 6 Band EQ- Limiter and other configurations like High Pass- Multiband Compressor- 6 Band EQ- Limiter etc.

The line inputs are intended to be line level inputs. The configurations High Pass- Compressor- 3 Band EQ or High Pass- 6 Band EQ are assuming a line input like a keyboard where a noise gate would be unlikely to be used. Of course the inputs 13-16 can still be used with most microphones.

 

Hmm very interesting. So judging by what you're saying, the fixed DSP power of the StageScape
as a whole is not enough to have inputs 13-16 get the same effect suite as inputs 1-12?
If that is the reason it would be a hardware issue not fixable by a simple firmware update. Bummer...

Of course, it's not like this would be some huge end all deal breaker or ANYWHERE close to destroying all the good things that have come out
of this mixer and how much equipment of ours it has replaced.  :lol: 
We are very much enjoying our squeaky clean desk that used to be cluttered by a spiderweb of wires, towers, cd players, recording equipment, etc.

But it does seem odd to have this predicament with all the R&D that this product must have went through.
If they can still be used with microphones, mic'd amps, or anything for that matter that simply just uses a 1/4 jack instead of an XLR
why would it be assumed that something as simple as a noise gate or FBS could not be included in the processing chain?


Currently we have 2 microphones plugged into 13 and 14 and they have the normal fuzz that can be heard through the speakers.
Of course while someone is speaking the fuzz is not that noticeable, but when they are silent it is a slight annoyance and
distraction to hear this fuzz and feedback from the bleed of the speakers back into the mic.
It would be nice to have a noise gate to eliminate this and even FBS to help when mics are used in these 4 inputs.

Of course we don't have problems with this fuzz/FB for anything plugged into 1-12 since they have those 2 DSP effects available to them.

I understand that it is unlikely that something that really is line in would need such effects
but that still leaves the possibility for it to sometimes be needed.
In the same way that not every device plugged into 1-12 needs effects such as
EQ or Compressor but still has the option to use them, shouldn't this same philosophy be used for inputs 13-16.

Does the StageScape really not have any DSP flexability available to add even just two very prized effects (noise gate and FBS) for simply 4 more inputs?

Thanks for the info ArneLine6!  :)


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#30 GracefulGideon

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 08:47 AM

Does anyone else have explanations/quesitons for this discussion or is the explanation/answer by Arnie where we leave it?

It seems the M20D just can't have effects added to lines 13-16 even if they wanted to
due to a hardware issue of not having enough DSP power to apply more effects to the DSP chain of those channels.

Or if it is a possiblity do we need to just wait for the next firmware update for this possible change to occur?

Even if this is where the discussion ends I am still very glad to not be the only one
who has noticed this difference between channels 1-12 and 13-16.

Thanks :)


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#31 Jess24

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Posted 18 September 2013 - 08:22 AM

I would also like to see more preset options for the line inputs, such as the bass direct and pod direct presets. These are typically 1/4 inch inputs, and I would find it very useful to be able to use the line inputs for them.

 

Thanks for your consideration!

 

Jess


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