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Helix with Marshall Jvm fx loop + power amp in?

marshall jvm 4cm 4 cable method 410hjs routing connecting line 6 helix

Best Answer frodebro , 07 March 2017 - 09:12 PM

Hi all, I am a noobie joobie here so please be kind and thank you in advance for reading this thread.

I am thinking about buying the Helix as a replacement for my pedalboard, I have a Marshall JVM410hjs which I love the tone of and play live with a V30 loaded 4x12. The back connections to the JVM are quite versatile and not only have a programmable serial FX loop but also a power amp INSERT, IN and OUT. I want to run the Helix as the main control (forget channel switching for now) and have Fx pre and post preamp via 4 cable method. Is there a way I can utilize  the fx loop and the power amp insert to run preamps from the Helix through the power amp insert (obviously minus cab models) and post fx through the loop. Basically making the preamp on the Marshall  JVM another 'preamp' in the Helix? Footswitched in via the loop. So all Helix preamp models go through power amp Insert but by using the loop i can use my Marshall's preamp as an added preamp and having the Fx through it?  Maybe I'm thinking backwards here and there is an easier way i.e. normal 4 cable method, just wondered if there was any benefit of running it this way, or maybe using the power amp IN will negate the loop. appreciate all your thoughts and feedback. Thank you for listening.

 

 

Both the effects loop and the insert in the Marshall are located essentially in the same place in the circuit-meaning between the preamp and power amp.  I'm guessing that the loop is switchable and the insert point is not.  If this is the case, then just use either one of them as a standard effects loop for your 4CM connections, but don't muck about trying to utilize both loops as it won't gain you anything except a mess of unnecessary wiring.

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#1 pstenton

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 06:26 PM

Hi all, I am a noobie joobie here so please be kind and thank you in advance for reading this thread.

I am thinking about buying the Helix as a replacement for my pedalboard, I have a Marshall JVM410hjs which I love the tone of and play live with a V30 loaded 4x12. The back connections to the JVM are quite versatile and not only have a programmable serial FX loop but also a power amp INSERT, IN and OUT. I want to run the Helix as the main control (forget channel switching for now) and have Fx pre and post preamp via 4 cable method. Is there a way I can utilize  the fx loop and the power amp insert to run preamps from the Helix through the power amp insert (obviously minus cab models) and post fx through the loop. Basically making the preamp on the Marshall  JVM another 'preamp' in the Helix? Footswitched in via the loop. So all Helix preamp models go through power amp Insert but by using the loop i can use my Marshall's preamp as an added preamp and having the Fx through it?  Maybe I'm thinking backwards here and there is an easier way i.e. normal 4 cable method, just wondered if there was any benefit of running it this way, or maybe using the power amp IN will negate the loop. appreciate all your thoughts and feedback. Thank you for listening.


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#2 frodebro

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 09:12 PM   Best Answer

Hi all, I am a noobie joobie here so please be kind and thank you in advance for reading this thread.

I am thinking about buying the Helix as a replacement for my pedalboard, I have a Marshall JVM410hjs which I love the tone of and play live with a V30 loaded 4x12. The back connections to the JVM are quite versatile and not only have a programmable serial FX loop but also a power amp INSERT, IN and OUT. I want to run the Helix as the main control (forget channel switching for now) and have Fx pre and post preamp via 4 cable method. Is there a way I can utilize  the fx loop and the power amp insert to run preamps from the Helix through the power amp insert (obviously minus cab models) and post fx through the loop. Basically making the preamp on the Marshall  JVM another 'preamp' in the Helix? Footswitched in via the loop. So all Helix preamp models go through power amp Insert but by using the loop i can use my Marshall's preamp as an added preamp and having the Fx through it?  Maybe I'm thinking backwards here and there is an easier way i.e. normal 4 cable method, just wondered if there was any benefit of running it this way, or maybe using the power amp IN will negate the loop. appreciate all your thoughts and feedback. Thank you for listening.

 

 

Both the effects loop and the insert in the Marshall are located essentially in the same place in the circuit-meaning between the preamp and power amp.  I'm guessing that the loop is switchable and the insert point is not.  If this is the case, then just use either one of them as a standard effects loop for your 4CM connections, but don't muck about trying to utilize both loops as it won't gain you anything except a mess of unnecessary wiring.


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#3 pstenton

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 03:07 AM

Both the effects loop and the insert in the Marshall are located essentially in the same place in the circuit-meaning between the preamp and power amp.  I'm guessing that the loop is switchable and the insert point is not.  If this is the case, then just use either one of them as a standard effects loop for your 4CM connections, but don't muck about trying to utilize both loops as it won't gain you anything except a mess of unnecessary wiring.

Ah! Thank you Frodebro! Just the answer I was looking for. Yes, the FX loop is switchable so I think this would be the one to use, Also it has a return level with cut and boost up to 6db so it's the more flexible root. Thanks again for your reply, very much appreciated.


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#4 ricksteruk

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 05:23 AM

It's worth bearing in mind that you should probably use MIDI to switch your JVM - not the 1/4in jack FS

 

Because although Helix does have an amp switching facility, for some reason they didn't do it properly with galvanic (relay) bypass so it causes horrendous Earth hum with virtually all Marshalls (and Fenders.. and Mesas.. and Laneys) :(


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#5 cruisinon2

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:02 AM

...to run preamps from the Helix through the power amp insert (obviously minus cab models)


This isn't as obvious as it seems. Try it both ways...even though running a cab model into a real cabinet looks redundant on paper, you might like the way it sounds. Before I switched to an FRFR rig, this is exactly what I did. There are no hard and fast "rules" with this stuff. If it sounds good, it is good...even if the configuration doesn't "make sense" at first glance.
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#6 pstenton

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 08:11 AM

It's worth bearing in mind that you should probably use MIDI to switch your JVM - not the 1/4in jack FS

 

Because although Helix does have an amp switching facility, for some reason they didn't do it properly with galvanic (relay) bypass so it causes horrendous Earth hum with virtually all Marshalls (and Fenders.. and Mesas.. and Laneys) :(

Really? ok, thanks for the heads up. How quick are the changes?


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#7 pstenton

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 08:13 AM

This isn't as obvious as it seems. Try it both ways...even though running a cab model into a real cabinet looks redundant on paper, you might like the way it sounds. Before I switched to an FRFR rig, this is exactly what I did. There are no hard and fast "rules" with this stuff. If it sounds good, it is good...even if the configuration doesn't "make sense" at first glance.

Good point, it's all subjective to your own taste isn't it. Thanks for the tip.


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#8 MusicLaw

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:27 AM

This isn't as obvious as it seems. Try it both ways...even though running a cab model into a real cabinet looks redundant on paper, you might like the way it sounds. Before I switched to an FRFR rig, this is exactly what I did. There are no hard and fast "rules" with this stuff. If it sounds good, it is good...even if the configuration doesn't "make sense" at first glance.

Just as many amp and FX units are variations of similar circuits, when you find one or several that you prefer, you use them! In a similar fashion, the way modeled amps, modeled combo amps, speakers, cabs, and cab sims interact is a complex receipe that will absolutely sound different depending on the combination of the elements. If you like the sound of the combination you're getting use it! Many of the most notable sounds over the past decades are the result of using things in non-standard ways!
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#9 ricksteruk

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:45 PM

Really? ok, thanks for the heads up. How quick are the changes?

 

 

I've not seen the JVM working via MIDI sorry :(  but my H&K amp switches channels by MIDI very quickly.


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#10 jmp22684

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:58 PM

Channel switching is fast!

I had a jvm410h and now have the jvm410c.

I will HIGHLY recommend using the snapshots primarily. You cant toggle a program change and its a real pain if you want to hit the same button twice.

To do this first set global midi to not send a pc message. *important* - I learned the hard way wondering why my midi wasnt working well.

Then under snapshot command center set, for example: snapshot 1 clean, 2 crunch, 3 distortion, 4 lead. Setting appropriate effects of course.

Then under command center send the program change. It will adjust under each snapshot.

I STRONGLY recommend building yourself a table in excel!

PC 1: ch1 green vol 1
PC 2: ch1 green vol 2
PC 3: ch1 orange vol 1
etc....

The other thing I did was set the master volume on the Helix to not adjust the 1/4 out. I did this because I wanted default level to the amp. Given its a tube amp I prefer to handle all volume/gain staging on the amp itself.

Now if I may bother you. I haven't hit the jvm forum yet.

I had the 410h and loved it. This was at the same time my dt50 blew up for the 3rd time. I bought a pa system and bought the helix.... Planned on using the PA entirely. Did not keep the 410h to help fund the endeavour; it was an extremely expensive pa system.

A year later I finally found and affordable one and grabbed an used jvm410c for 1k. But it just doesnt have the punch and ch3 and 4 sqeal like crazy humming and buzzing. Almost so loud you cant actually hear the guitar. I have ran through several different grounded breakers throughout the house. My main system would normally I have it is all run through a livewire rack digital power conditioner which is plugged to a dedicated line in my studio. Several several different guitar. No weird light bulbs. Lol... Tomorrow I plan on testing the bias. I don't want to buy new tubes. I still have a return period and if it goes back I have completely switched to the helix and really don't need a set of tubes laying around.

Anyways.... Please feel free to ask anything. I have much experience with the jvm410 and the helix. Organization is key though when it comes to the options of that amp and setting it up. Build that table!

24 midi commands w/ only volume changes
88 options if you account for reverb
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Pedal:

Pod HD500

 

Amps:

DT50 1x12

DT50 HD

 

Guitars (my babies!):

1998 USA Deluxe Stratocaster HSS

2007 USA Custom G&L Comanche (oh she's pretty .. Honey Burst Swamp Ash Pearl like machine heads)

2012 USA Gibson Traditional

2014 USA Gibson Firebird (w/ 120th anniversary on the 12th fret)


#11 pstenton

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:17 PM

I've not seen the JVM working via MIDI sorry :(  but my H&K amp switches channels by MIDI very quickly.

Ok, thank you, I will experiment. I should imagine it would also depend on the length of the midi cable. Cheers.


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#12 pstenton

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 07:55 PM

Channel switching is fast!

I had a jvm410h and now have the jvm410c.

I will HIGHLY recommend using the snapshots primarily. You cant toggle a program change and its a real pain if you want to hit the same button twice.

To do this first set global midi to not send a pc message. *important* - I learned the hard way wondering why my midi wasnt working well.

Then under snapshot command center set, for example: snapshot 1 clean, 2 crunch, 3 distortion, 4 lead. Setting appropriate effects of course.

Then under command center send the program change. It will adjust under each snapshot.

I STRONGLY recommend building yourself a table in excel!

PC 1: ch1 green vol 1
PC 2: ch1 green vol 2
PC 3: ch1 orange vol 1
etc....

The other thing I did was set the master volume on the Helix to not adjust the 1/4 out. I did this because I wanted default level to the amp. Given its a tube amp I prefer to handle all volume/gain staging on the amp itself.

Now if I may bother you. I haven't hit the jvm forum yet.

I had the 410h and loved it. This was at the same time my dt50 blew up for the 3rd time. I bought a pa system and bought the helix.... Planned on using the PA entirely. Did not keep the 410h to help fund the endeavour; it was an extremely expensive pa system.

A year later I finally found and affordable one and grabbed an used jvm410c for 1k. But it just doesnt have the punch and ch3 and 4 sqeal like crazy humming and buzzing. Almost so loud you cant actually hear the guitar. I have ran through several different grounded breakers throughout the house. My main system would normally I have it is all run through a livewire rack digital power conditioner which is plugged to a dedicated line in my studio. Several several different guitar. No weird light bulbs. Lol... Tomorrow I plan on testing the bias. I don't want to buy new tubes. I still have a return period and if it goes back I have completely switched to the helix and really don't need a set of tubes laying around.

Anyways.... Please feel free to ask anything. I have much experience with the jvm410 and the helix. Organization is key though when it comes to the options of that amp and setting it up. Build that table!

24 midi commands w/ only volume changes
88 options if you account for reverb

Thanks jmp 22684, You are clearly a smart, meticulous individual. A lot of great information there, I shall be referring back to your post no doubt. I may even dip a toe in the pros of Excel! Good tip.

 

As for your squeel issue, Have you tried different guitars? Also, have you tried standing as far as you can from it? Does it still squeel? It might be worth experimenting with your channel volume in relation to your gain?. I use the 410hjs, bit less gain on tap, sounds wonderful and channel 2 sounds like my old jcm800. It also has noise gates to combat noise. I will always try everything else first though before relying on noise gates.

 

I will come to you first time a problem occurs! Thank you for the offer.

 

Really helpful reply, thank you.


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#13 pstenton

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 08:05 PM

So for any that are interested, The wife finally caved and I got the Helix. Before playing a note through it I endured an 8 hour struggle with updating to the latest firmware, turns out after many hours of swearing over a brand new bricked Helix, it prefers strong USB ports to upgrade. An FX unit with scruples, I love it already. Very impressed with it so far. Cue many more posts of 'how the hell do I do this with helix?' Big thanks to all the above posters for the invaluable info. :)


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#14 jmp22684

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:23 AM

Thanks jmp 22684, You are clearly a smart, meticulous individual. A lot of great information there, I shall be referring back to your post no doubt. I may even dip a toe in the pros of Excel! Good tip.
 
As for your squeel issue, Have you tried different guitars? Also, have you tried standing as far as you can from it? Does it still squeel? It might be worth experimenting with your channel volume in relation to your gain?. I use the 410hjs, bit less gain on tap, sounds wonderful and channel 2 sounds like my old jcm800. It also has noise gates to combat noise. I will always try everything else first though before relying on noise gates.
 
I will come to you first time a problem occurs! Thank you for the offer.
 
Really helpful reply, thank you.


Yeah. On a custom built ESP, USA deluxe strat, usa g&l comanche, gibson les paul. Wireless, wired, 4cm, standing on my head, everything
... She squeals like a piggy!

I've had the jvm410h, carvin vt50, 3 line dt50's (all blew up! Lol .... Line 6 fixed them after some serious "wtf?!" messaging), mesa 90w Mark V, mesa roadking, the list goes on.... I have never in my life had an amp the squeals like this puppy.

I want to post in the jvm forum... Waiting for some one to say, "well its a high gain amp you know!"
Well sure I guess.... Because the mesa boogie roadking isnt? Lol
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Pedal:

Pod HD500

 

Amps:

DT50 1x12

DT50 HD

 

Guitars (my babies!):

1998 USA Deluxe Stratocaster HSS

2007 USA Custom G&L Comanche (oh she's pretty .. Honey Burst Swamp Ash Pearl like machine heads)

2012 USA Gibson Traditional

2014 USA Gibson Firebird (w/ 120th anniversary on the 12th fret)


#15 pstenton

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:08 AM

Yeah. On a custom built ESP, USA deluxe strat, usa g&l comanche, gibson les paul. Wireless, wired, 4cm, standing on my head, everything
... She squeals like a piggy!

I've had the jvm410h, carvin vt50, 3 line dt50's (all blew up! Lol .... Line 6 fixed them after some serious "wtf?!" messaging), mesa 90w Mark V, mesa roadking, the list goes on.... I have never in my life had an amp the squeals like this puppy.

I want to post in the jvm forum... Waiting for some one to say, "well its a high gain amp you know!"
Well sure I guess.... Because the mesa boogie roadking isnt? Lol

Mmm, I guess looking at the pre amp valves is the next logical step. Anyway to borrow some, maybe from another amp to see if it cures it before you splash out? I think it's forum posting time.


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#16 shredzilla1964

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:18 AM

Jvm410h is definitely finicky with tubes.
Definitely get on the jvm Forum and do some searching there's a lot of good info there in regards to what tubes people utilize in the various positions to maximize tone and minimize extraneous noise and hiss.
I will eventually get around to trying out the 4 cable method myself with my 410H/ helix.... I'll post my results
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#17 jimbojamz

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 08:47 AM

I found that my JVM410H doesn't get enough signal when I run Helix direct into the power amp. Not sure why. It's fine through the clean channel front jack. I have several tube amps and the helix works great in the return of my hot rod deville and my carvin v3 (the only 2 i tried it in) It's not a biggie for me BC i run a frfr speaker. 


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#18 pstenton

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Posted 15 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

I found that my JVM410H doesn't get enough signal when I run Helix direct into the power amp. Not sure why. It's fine through the clean channel front jack. I have several tube amps and the helix works great in the return of my hot rod deville and my carvin v3 (the only 2 i tried it in) It's not a biggie for me BC i run a frfr speaker. 

If I am not mistaken, running directly into the power amp is line level. As was pointed out to me, running into the FX loop is not dissimilar from running into the power amp. Try running into the Fx loop and make sure the helix volume is up full. I am now running it this way and I have no issues with input. Hope this helps.


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