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Using Both Line Out And Xlr Out?


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#1 Alsklaftsk123

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:52 PM

Hi, if i only use 1 xlr out, i will get a mono signal, but if i connect a 1/4" cable to my stage monitor live, while xlr runs to the house PA, will it still be mono in both outputs (since im using 1 of each)? Will the signal be the same as running only 1 cable, or will the signals be overidden by each other?


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#2 hurghanico

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 03:28 PM

Hi, if i only use 1 xlr out, i will get a mono signal, but if i connect a 1/4" cable to my stage monitor live, while xlr runs to the house PA, will it still be mono in both outputs (since im using 1 of each)? Will the signal be the same as running only 1 cable, or will the signals be overidden by each other?

 

the Left XLR can give only the Left part of the stereo signal, if you connect only the Left XLR you'll not get the stereo signal (L+R) summed to mono

the same above thing happens with the Right XLR for the Right channel..

 

differently if you connect just one 1/4 output (doesn't matter what you do with the XLRs) you'll get always the L+R summed to mono


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#3 Alsklaftsk123

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 02:27 AM

Well, read post #4.  http://www.ultimate-...24#post31902424


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#4 still_fiddlin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 03:56 AM

1 extra thing to carry, but simple solution is a Y.

xlrY.JPG

 

But, I use a DI off of L/Mono output, and use the parallel In/Out 1/4" to feed the monitor.  Since I'm forced carrying 1 extra piece, at least that way I know that what's in the monitor is exactly what is going to the PA, save that it's been through the DI.  (The Y cable was what I used before, with, I suppose,t the same result, but I'm satisfied with the DI solution.  Just another nit that annoys me about these HD products for live use.  How about a switch for summing XLR in the HD, Line6??)


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#5 Alsklaftsk123

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 04:55 AM

If i have the xlr-y cable plugged in at all times will the 1/4" l/mono signal be overriden by the xlr cable. Would the combined l and r signal be louder than only 1 channel?
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#6 still_fiddlin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:19 AM

If i have the xlr-y cable plugged in at all times will the 1/4" l/mono signal be overriden by the xlr cable. Would the combined l and r signal be louder than only 1 channel?

I don't know what "overridden" means.  They are separate signal paths; at least, they better be, or plugging a 1/4" into the L/Mono output would effectively turn the XLR into Mono as well.

 

Louder, well, maybe a little, but it's not something that should upset the PA input setting - maybe a gain tweak, at worst.  Honestly, I would worry more about phase weirdness if you've got any true stereo stuff going on; but you'd have to listen, and chances are it would be doing the same thing on the line out side.  (Another reason I settled on the L/Mono + DI solution - just assume their mono sum is better than me twisting wires together - at least it's been tested, presumably!)


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#7 Alsklaftsk123

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 05:26 AM

So you are basicly saying that when I have a 1/4" cable connected to the l/mono input, both xlr outputs would be automaticly mono?
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#8 hurghanico

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:23 AM

 

I felt like I was clear enough, but apparently it is not so :rolleyes:

 

internally to the POD each path signal is composed of L + R

 

the XLR and 1/4 are independent of each other, what you do physically with an output type, does not affect what you get with the other

 

the only outputs that if used alone give L + R are the 1/4 (and the L FX Return)

therefore each of the two XLR outputs will give only L or R

 

take a look at the labels on your POD
where
is it written "mono" as alternative behavior? ;)


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#9 still_fiddlin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 06:24 AM

So you are basicly saying that when I have a 1/4" cable connected to the l/mono input, both xlr outputs would be automaticly mono?

no. I'm saying that should not happen.
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#10 Alsklaftsk123

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:06 AM

But i really want to use xlr. Is my best bet to use a Y splitter or just one cable from either l or r? The thing about phase wierdness scares me a little. I want everything mono, so i try to make my patches as mono as i can. Is this phase wierdnes thing just a theory or shuld i really worry? How does it happen with a high end monster Y cable?
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#11 still_fiddlin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:17 AM

Phase cancellation has nothing to so with cable quality or advertising hype. You have to listen to the stereo and mono and decide if it's happening.

If your patches are mono, just pick one of the XLR outs. You shouldn't have a phase problem, and summing is not necessary, and may create an issue that wouldn't happen otherwise.

Just record the two options throug an interface to convince yourself.
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#12 Alsklaftsk123

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 07:47 AM

So maybe i shuld use mono xlr then. If i have cable from the left xlr going to the pa, that left signal wouldnt be affected if i plugged a monitor in the right xlr output? (Or line out for that matter)?

Also, i really dont understend how a Y cable would mess up phase stuff. Wouldnt it just be both of the signals blended together?
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#13 hurghanico

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 09:04 AM

If i have cable from the left xlr going to the pa, that left signal wouldnt be affected if i plugged a monitor in the right xlr output? (Or line out for that matter)?

 

if you do like you said above you'll get the Left part of the signal from the Left XLR going to PA, and the Right part of the signal from the Right XLR going to the monitor..

 

depending on your patch if it contains a stereo or a mono FX at the end of the chain, the Left and Right could be slight different from each other or not..

 

differently the 1/4 out when used alone will always sum to mono L + R so you'll get always the full signal, no sound parts missing..

 

 

Also, i really dont understend how a Y cable would mess up phase stuff. Wouldnt it just be both of the signals blended together?

 

if the L and R are even just a bit different from each other and you make them pass through the same cable-same path you could easily get phase problems


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#14 zaboomafoo

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 10:37 AM

1 extra thing to carry, but simple solution is a Y.

xlrY.JPG

 

But, I use a DI off of L/Mono output, and use the parallel In/Out 1/4" to feed the monitor.  Since I'm forced carrying 1 extra piece, at least that way I know that what's in the monitor is exactly what is going to the PA, save that it's been through the DI.  (The Y cable was what I used before, with, I suppose,t the same result, but I'm satisfied with the DI solution.  Just another nit that annoys me about these HD products for live use.  How about a switch for summing XLR in the HD, Line6??)

 

Y cable is meant for splitting one signal into two, not the other way around (merging two into one). Although technically you can merge signals that way, it can cause issues which are beyond my understanding of electronics :) - loading, impedance, etc - google for it for more info. To merge two different signals (L+R) you need some kind of mixer. A simple passive mixer can be probably built inside XLR connector, to make this safe (again google for it).

 

I started a similar thread while back, on getting mono out of XLR. One simple way is to add FX loop in the last FX slot. Then use a short mono (TS) 1/4 patch cable from FX loop's out into FX loop left in. That will get L+R summed into mono and both XLR outs will be mono. Sure, you will use one extra FX slot, and you will also add one more D/A A/D conversion in the path, but it will work.

 

 

Other method is to add one of the mono FX in the last slot, something that will not colour the tone too much (compressor, or noise gate) which will make signal path mono inside POD. Again this take one extra FX slot.

 

zbf


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#15 still_fiddlin

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Posted 16 September 2013 - 11:25 AM

Ok, a simple Y is generally frowned on; as in, don't do that. If you want to use a Y, do it like this: http://www.rane.com/note109.html

That's why I use the unbalanced L/Mono out to a DI...
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#16 sbeattie7

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Posted 17 September 2013 - 09:42 AM

At about 2:42, this video from Line 6 discusses the Balanced XLR output connection to a Mixer. 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=sHtUA59LnsI

 

It mentions connecting to just the Left XLR output of the HD500 and setting the output mode to studio/direct.  No mention of panning the mixer setting to the left or anything about missing the right half of a stereo signal.  I wish a Line 6 rep would weigh in on this discussion so we could have an official statement that clarifies exactly how to do this.  I would think that quite a few people are interested in only connecting one XLR cable to the mixer. 


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#17 perapera

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 03:12 AM

1) in short the answer to the OP is:

> Hi,

Hi man ;-)

 

> if i only use 1 xlr out, i will get a mono signal,

yes and no...

if you have a mono signal inside the pod, yes you have a mono signal

if you have a stereo signal inside the pod and you use the XLR Left out, you will loose all the Right side

 

is that a problem? well, see below

 

> but if i connect a 1/4" cable to my stage monitor live, while xlr runs to the house PA, will it still be mono in both outputs (since im using 1 of each)? Will the signal be the same as running only 1 cable, or will the signals be overidden by each other?

 

the jack and XLR signals are independent of each other so connecting a jack doesn't affect the XLR signal (what I said about XLR's still applies),

but if you have a stereo signal inside the pod the jack signal will be a mono sum of the Left and Right so it will be different from either the Left or the Right XLR

 

§§§

 

2) a more detailed answer:

 

first of all, if any of you are interested in thoroughly understanding the pod HD signal routing, I invite you to read this post of mine and to look at my schematics:

http://line6.com/sup...ing-schematics/

 

then there are some points I needed to claryfy on things asked and asserted in this discussion:

 

- mono sum => NO signal boost

even if you have a true mono signal into the pod, using only one 1/4" out will NOT give you a louder signal; the pod correctly attenuates by 6dB and sums the L and R signals any time it does a mono sum

 

- if you have a true mono signal at the end of the pod signal chain, using an XLR or 1/4 jack out doesn't make any difference and you should choose based on what are you connecting to

(the 1/4 jack has a hotter unbalanced signal, while the xlr has a balanced mic-level signal)

 

AND you can even use all 4 outputs to go to different destinations with exactly the same sound (but different levels)

 

- so now what do I mean with "true" mono signal?

well a mono signal is simply a single signal, full stop.

but since all pod internal signals are dual, in the case of the pod we are talking about a pair of signals wich are exacly identical, we could call it "double mono".

 

now, you said you wanted to keep your patches as mono as you can: that's a good idea

 

so, how you get to have 2 identical signals on the Left and Right outputs?

on the pod hd you can start with an empty patch, leave all the defaults as they are, only use mono effects and do not use A/B paths (or if you use them, pan them to center)

or do anything you want and then put a unity gain non-colouring mono effect block at the end of the chain (the noise gate with 0-0 settings is the one to go); notice that this makes sense ONLY if you want to use a single xlr output)

 

 

- phase issues:

if you do not use path A and B, phase issues given by a mono summing can occur ONLY on:

 . the tail of a reverb (and only in the tail)

or

 . the wet part of stereo modulation effects (not on your dry signal, only in the wet part, so just reducing the mix value, where applicable, can reduce possible problems)

 

(of course in such a situation you wouldn't use stereo and ping-pong delays... would you?)

 

you really have to decide by yourself listening to left only (or right only) and mono sum: if you do not hear a degradation then it's not there;

 

how to do that? Here it is:

 

mono summing: phase issues test method

. connect a jack from the left 1/4" out to an amp or whatever you use

. play (or record a loop with the looper, but this must be in the "pre" position because the looper at the end would sum to mono the recorded signal ruining the test)

. alternately plug and unplug a "dummy" jack in the right 1/4" output

. now listen for any difference in frequency content and level (is it thinner? boxy? dulled?)

 

- now if you hear a difference and you don't like the mono sum, you could follow hurghanico suggestion and use a "left only" approach by putting everything on the A path, panning it to Left, muting path B and using the left jack and the left XLR

 

that would give you exactly the same signal on both XLR and jack left outputs and no phase issue

but would loose any right signal (again only half reverb tails and half modulations), and you decide if that's a problem, for me it's not

 

§§§

 

3) line 6

line 6 has never showed to care about complex signal routing issues, so my guess is they will not "weigh in on this discussion", dear sbeattie7

 

they never said NOTHING about my signal routing schematics even if I asked them directly,

both on the thread I initially posted in the old forum (http://line6.com/support/thread/90441
) and through private messages to the experts and gurus

 

notice that luckily I re-posted my schematics and conclusions in the new forum (http://line6.com/sup...ing-schematics/)

because now the old forum is archived

 

and it's NOT reachable from the support menu on the line 6 homepage

(by the way it's now here if anyone is interested: http://line6.com/supportarchivenew/)

 

and it's impossible to reach with the old links

 

and it's not searchable from the new forum (well you can search but the links are wrong!)

 

and even if you get there (maybe through google) the archived version has no images

 

and the links to the images are not working

 

well... sorry for the rattling ;-)


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#18 hurghanico

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 04:03 AM

...you could follow hurghanico suggestion and use a "left only" approach by putting everything on the A path, panning it to Left, muting path B and using the left jack and the left XLR

 

that would give you exactly the same signal on both XLR and jack left outputs and no phase issue

but would loose any right signal (again only half reverb tails and half modulations), and you decide if that's a problem, for me it's not..

 

I'm sorry perapera but I disagree with that part of your statement above underlined by me

 

if and only if you put everything in path A and you set its pan control at 100% to the Left you'll get a perfect summed to mono path's L and R from the XLR Left output, therefore you wouldn't lose any Right part of the signal, which obviously will no longer be separated from the Left but it will be still there on the Left Out and audible

 

if it wasn't like this, it wouldn't be possible to get 2 complete separate chains signals (L + R summed to mono for each path) one on the Left and one on the Right, and all that without worrying if to use or not stereo FXs in each separate chain


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#19 perapera

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 05:13 AM

sorry hurghanico, you are wrong ;-)

 

try this:

 

take a blank patch

mute path B

put a ping pong delay on path A

 

listen through the xlr left out

 

listen to it with the A channel "pan" to 100%L or center:

nothing changes: the right part is gone (you hear an eighth note and then quarter notes)

 

(p.s. the "pan" is mislabelled, it's actually a balance on a stereo channel)

 

now want another proof? put a noise gate (decay 0, threshold 0) after the delay

and you'll have the real mono summed signal (which sounds like a normal delay)

 

hurghanico said: "if it wasn't like this, it wouldn't be possible to get 2 complete separate chains signals (L + R summed to mono for each path) one on the Left and one on the Right, and all that without worrying if to use or not stereo FXs in each separate chain"

 

that's a good point hurghanico, but it's like this: it is not possible;

if you use 2 different sources for guitar and aux inputs and pan the A to left and the B to right you have two mono separate chains with "left only" or "right only" fx

 

but again you only loose marginal things... (and anyway the ping pong delay in "left only" sounds cool doesn'it?)

 

peace

Lore


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#20 hurghanico

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 06:30 AM

try this:

 

take a blank patch

mute path B

put a ping pong delay on path A

 

listen through the xlr left out

 

listen to it with the A channel "pan" to 100%L or center:

nothing changes: the right part is gone (you hear an eighth note and then quarter notes)

 

(p.s. the "pan" is mislabelled, it's actually a balance on a stereo channel)

 

now want another proof? put a noise gate (decay 0, threshold 0) after the delay

and you'll have the real mono summed signal (which sounds like a normal delay)

 

hurghanico said: "if it wasn't like this, it wouldn't be possible to get 2 complete separate chains signals (L + R summed to mono for each path) one on the Left and one on the Right, and all that without worrying if to use or not stereo FXs in each separate chain"

 

+1

 

Lore, you are right ;) and I was wrong <_<

 

since at the moment I don't have the possibility to test the XLR Out, I did your experiment above by connecting the Left 1/4 Out to my amp, and plugging a dummy jack into the Right 1/4 Out, doing so the Left 1/4 behaves like the Left XLR.. and as a test result as I said before I noted that you are absolutely right..

 

mistakenly I thought that the HD500 implementation of the 2 independent channels was made ​​better than what it is in reality..

I am a bit disappointed with this test result.. I had not even noticed it before because almost never I use the XLRs but just one 1/4 Out (mono)..

 

thank goodness I like very much many sounds that I get with this machine, which comforts me and makes me forget (even if not completely) certain imperfections..

 

bravo Lore


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#21 perapera

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 07:41 AM

thanks man!

and thumbs up to who is able to say "I was wrong": not so diffused on forums in general ;-)

 

I think you should make an errata corrige of your statements also in the other topic here:

http://line6.com/sup...oving-dual-amp/

 

'cos someone could make bad choices based on wrong information

 

"thank goodness I like very much many sounds that I get with this machine, which comforts me and makes me forget (even if not completely) certain imperfections.."

yeah it's the (in)famous love/hate relationship with that machine, I have it too ;-)


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#22 hurghanico

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Posted 19 September 2013 - 09:18 AM

I think you should make an errata corrige of your statements also in the other topic here:

http://line6.com/sup...oving-dual-amp/

 

done! ;)


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#23 liveman

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 03:48 PM

Thanks for all the brilliant information on this post and the routing schematics diagram.   I've been noticing some weird happenings with panning, which lead me to this forum post.  I was fiddling around as I read this and seemed to have fixed it.   I think it maybe the HD500x edit software.

 

I had this tone that would always be louder when the mixer was set to left 100%.  So I could isolate either A or B by muting the opposing channel, and always hear the volume get louder as I panned from right to left.  This is with just mono jack out, regardless if I plugged in the L or R, left 100% would always be louder.  So I kept removing all fx until it was a copy of the 'new tone',  Left 100% was still louder EVEN THOUGH if I switched to the the other 'new tone', left 100% and right 100% on that would be correctly the same.  I then moved one of the empty blue boxes from the back of the dual path to the front (before) and it seemed to 'reboot' something internally and it was then behaving correctly.

 

This same tone was also acting weird last night as well.  In the mixer, the right channel was not kicking in until I moved the right slider a bit.  Even if I nudged it, saved it, then reloaded it, the right  would still be missing (until I nudged it).  I think it went away when I disconnected the USB cable, fiddled with the tone a bit in the hardware and resaved.  Pretty weird huh, anyway moral of the story if your tone channels are acting strange,  move a blue box about!

 

 

(FYI the misbehaving tone was based on '04D Dual Treads' from the Song / Style set)


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#24 scottyo78

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 04:15 PM

Is it me or is it to simple to insert a stereo delay at the end and use your ears to determine if it's a nice ethereal stereo sound vs. a cold sterile mono sound. :P


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#25 perapera

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 06:08 AM

This same tone was also acting weird last night as well.  In the mixer, the right channel was not kicking in until I moved the right slider a bit.  Even if I nudged it, saved it, then reloaded it, the right  would still be missing (until I nudged it).  I think it went away when I disconnected the USB cable, fiddled with the tone a bit in the hardware and resaved.  Pretty weird huh, anyway moral of the story if your tone channels are acting strange,  move a blue box about!

 

this is a known bug

after you "send" a patch from the software editor to the hd500,

you should use the "save" button on the hd500 before using the unit's footswitches to change patch

 

otherwise many parameters will not be really saved

 

the mixer seems to suffer from this bug more than other blocks

 

see here:

http://line6.com/sup...saving-to-unit/

 

and please vote here to ask line6 to solve the problem:

http://line6.ideasca...nd/529219-23508


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