TC Electronic Clarity M - possible, but expensive, preset volume leveling solution?

[rzumwalt]

A lot has been written here seeking a solution to the problem of balancing volume levels between presets. One solution that has been offered has been to play into a DAW and watch the output monitor. I ran across this product by TC Electronic for monitoring output levels and figured it might be a solution. I'm not sure it's possible, but it would be nice if this could be used apart from a computer and be used directly plugged into the Helix.

Website: http://www.tcelectronic.com/clarity-m/

Technical details: http://www.tcelectronic.com/clarity-m/tech-specs/

It is obviously designed to work in conjunction with a DAW, but could it also work plugged into the USB output or SPDIF output of the Helix directly. My only reason for suspecting this is that Helix outputs 8 channels  to a DAW and this device, in the technical specs, indicates that it can monitor individual channels. But I'm hoping someone here can say whether I'm way off or if it's a possibility. Of course, I guess one can always just use it via a DAW, but that would defeat the purpose of having a small device independent of a computer.

If it doesn't work with Helix directly, does anyone know of something else that does? If not, I claim it as my intellectual property. Anyone know a good IP lawyer?

[jbuhajla]

I am thinking about building an external box with a couple of these in it so I can utilize a couple of the unbalanced outs of the Helix to fire these off. That would give me something small I can throw in the Helix case to give me a quick a dirty indication of output level where ever I am playing. I try to do a good job of "normalizing" levels between snaps/presets at home on my DAW before playing out, but sometimes I miss one or more. 

 

http://www.ese-web.com/214.htm

[rzumwalt]

I am thinking about building an external box with a couple of these in it so I can utilize a couple of the unbalanced outs of the Helix to fire these off. That would give me something small I can throw in the Helix case to give me a quick a dirty indication of output level where ever I am playing. I try to do a good job of "normalizing" levels between snaps/presets at home on my DAW before playing out, but sometimes I miss one or more. 

 

http://www.ese-web.com/214.htm

Probably a lot cheaper, even after installing the enclosure, inputs, and power connections.

When you normalize using a DAW, do you just look at the overall dB level indicated as you play and eyeball what the average is, or do you use a plugin that shows a more in-depth analysis, like which frequencies are peaking? Also, do you just sit with the guitar and play as you adjust levels? I can imagine using a prerecorded dry guitar track on a loop, running it through the Helix input, and outputting back to the DAW. I would think that would give more consistent results and be easier to work with, since you are already hooked up to the DAW in the first place.

[guitar1969]

But then there is the whole issue of not only leveling between presets, but between snapshots as well, since they can vary as well depending on effects.  Pretty hard to keep unity gain when stacking 2-3 OD stomps. .  That is my latest challenge as I like to stack dirt pedals too, so I have to level based upon the worst case scenario in a specific patch.

 

Not sure there is going to be an end all solution.

[rzumwalt]

But then there is the whole issue of not only leveling between presets, but between snapshots as well, since they can vary as well depending on effects.  Pretty hard to keep unity gain when stacking 2-3 OD stomps. .  That is my latest challenge as I like to stack dirt pedals too, so I have to level based upon the worst case scenario in a specific patch.

 

Not sure there is going to be an end all solution.

Well, this actually brings up another issue. If you actually want different loudness between snapshots, do you have to decide what your "neutral" volume is and then level your snapshots +/- 3 dB. In other words, do you actually want unity gain between all the snapshots?

Lately, I've been trying to use less actual volume boost and rely more on EQ and and eliminating reverb for leads. So I can see keeping things close to unity, but I can't see each snapshot being 100% the same volume for my purposes. Maybe you use your volume knob more than I do or use stomp boxes more within each snapshot for dynamics?

[jbuhajla]

Probably a lot cheaper, even after installing the enclosure, inputs, and power connections.

When you normalize using a DAW, do you just look at the overall dB level indicated as you play and eyeball what the average is, or do you use a plugin that shows a more in-depth analysis, like which frequencies are peaking? Also, do you just sit with the guitar and play as you adjust levels? I can imagine using a prerecorded dry guitar track on a loop, running it through the Helix input, and outputting back to the DAW. I would think that would give more consistent results and be easier to work with, since you are already hooked up to the DAW in the first place.

I just use the VU meter in the DAW that shows the peak and then when it settles in after 500ms or so. I just do it while playing through presets/snaps to ensure they are fairly consistent. Any snaps I have for leads, I make sure they are bumped up 3 dB or so. I do it fairly quickly just to get in the ballpark, then adjust audibly where necessary. Some amp/effect combinations sound louder or softer compared to their actual output, so you have to adjust a little bit sometimes for that. 

[DunedinDragon]

I'm not sure what any of these cost, but it sure might be hard to beat the price and availability of something like this.  Just plug into one of the channels, set the gain and volume at noon and you get all the info you need.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/402VLZ4

[cruisinon2]

Ears are free, standard issue at birth, and they're 100% effective at leveling volume. Use them...

[GlennDeLaune]

Ears are free, standard issue at birth, and they're 100% effective at leveling volume. Use them...

I agree. You need to train your ears. If you're playing live with a loud drummer, bass player with an amp and you have an amp you'll find that patches that have alot of gain will need to be way louder than what any volume level meter will tell you because the level meter is only metering your level not the room or venue. For direct recording it's totally different and that level meter may work for that. Even if your band goes all in ears and no sound on the stage you still have the drummer and the PA out front. The only effective way I have found, for me anyway, to level patches is to use the out front sound engineer (if he is in eye site) and it's best to do this for sound check. I've done this several times. Every preset or snapshot you change to during a song get the sound engineer to raise thumbs up for "it needs to be louder" or thumbs down for "It's too loud". Same thing for leads. You will find you need at least a 6 to 7db bump up for leads for it to be heard out front. That's how I volume level my patches for live use.

[cruisinon2]

I agree. You need to train your ears. If you're playing live with a loud drummer, bass player with an amp and you have an amp you'll find that patches that have alot of gain will need to be way louder than what any volume level meter will tell you because the level meter is only metering your level not the room or venue. For direct recording it's totally different and that level meter may work for that. Even if your band goes all in ears and no sound on the stage you still have the drummer and the PA out front. The only effective way I have found, for me anyway, to level patches is to use the out front sound engineer (if he is in eye site) and it's best to do this for sound check. I've done this several times. Every preset or snapshot you change to during a song get the sound engineer to raise thumbs up for "it needs to be louder" or thumbs down for "It's too loud". Same thing for leads. You will find you need at least a 6 to 7db bump up for leads for it to be heard out front. That's how I volume level my patches for live use.

Hallelujah! A voice of reason...gadgets with flashing lights are not the answer. There only thing a dB meter is good for is when you're trying to get the Guinness folks to certify your rendition of "Itsy Bitsy Spider" as the loudest ever. They cannot possibly tell you anything about how your guitar will sit in a live mix.

[taylorbeats]

Thumbs up to what Glenn said.  Best way to go.  However sometimes the sound engineers we encounter are a little light on the "engineer", some are inhibited as well (I've come across a few who have been..lets just say "impaired" in one way or another) and most of us do not work with the sound engineers Glenn is used to!.

 

I follow a couple rules-patch to patch I use the level meter in my mixer

 

Once those are set I use the looper for snapshots.

 

Solo boosts are typically 6-7 db's (but can be patch dependent-gain and reverb).

 

Every single patch I use also has a gain block in it as an end all be all close to the last block in the path.  That gain block is set to 0-5 db and is assigned to an old short throw Roland? FCV I had laying around.  It's a just in case.

 

I also added a homemade actual/live/physical boost pedal to the chain as a secondary or just in case/redundant failure.  I put some chicken head knobs on it so I can get at it with my feet to adjust.

 

Still toying with guitar-boost-helix or throwing the boost to a send/return.

 

It's pretty interesting though-when you talk with high level touring pros-no matter what they use-they have the same damn problem. 

[jbuhajla]

I agree. You need to train your ears. If you're playing live with a loud drummer, bass player with an amp and you have an amp you'll find that patches that have alot of gain will need to be way louder than what any volume level meter will tell you because the level meter is only metering your level not the room or venue. For direct recording it's totally different and that level meter may work for that. Even if your band goes all in ears and no sound on the stage you still have the drummer and the PA out front. The only effective way I have found, for me anyway, to level patches is to use the out front sound engineer (if he is in eye site) and it's best to do this for sound check. I've done this several times. Every preset or snapshot you change to during a song get the sound engineer to raise thumbs up for "it needs to be louder" or thumbs down for "It's too loud". Same thing for leads. You will find you need at least a 6 to 7db bump up for leads for it to be heard out front. That's how I volume level my patches for live use.

I totally agree with this, however we have members on the forum with a vast array of profession, needs, genres and venues. Most players don't have a sound engineer as part of the equation. They have to "normalize" volumes between patches/snaps to a known reference (mixer/DAW VU meter) at home, then tweak to taste at the venue (without a sound engineer or dedicated sound person). Yes, your ears need to be the final go/no go check, however using a piece of equipment to get you at least in the +/- 2dB ballpark is a viable tool for many non-professionals out there. 

[jbuhajla]

Ears are free, standard issue at birth, and they're 100% effective at leveling volume. Use them...

I know of quite a few ears that will skew your 100% estimate down a bit.  ;)

[DunedinDragon]

Although I would agree your ears are the ultimate test, I would contend that having a way to objectively measure output will keep you honest, and also reduce the workload when gain staging live with the band.

 

I use my meters as a way to give me a rough indication of where each patch is at.  Ultimately I can't totally depend on the meter, but the meter does give me a quantitative measure of signal strength which is the same measure that will be used by the sound crew at gain staging time.  I have to adjust that by ear as a final step because there are issues with perceived volume versus actual volume as well as the band mix which ultimately plays into it.  Not to mention, on the other side of the equation, how the ears begin to adapt via ear fatigue to louder sounds making them less accurate in resolving volume differences.

 

There is no doubt in my experience that I have significantly less adjusting to do at rehearsal, and even less at the live performance due in large part to having used a baseline measurement to work from.  For me it's nothing more than a time-saver when I get my patches to rehearsal or to the stage.

[rzumwalt]

I totally agree with this, however we have members on the forum with a vast array of profession, needs, genres and venues. Most players don't have a sound engineer as part of the equation. They have to "normalize" volumes between patches/snaps to a known reference (mixer/DAW VU meter) at home, then tweak to taste at the venue (without a sound engineer or dedicated sound person). Yes, your ears need to be the final go/no go check, however using a piece of equipment to get you at least in the +/- 2dB ballpark is a viable tool for many non-professionals out there. 

 

That is a really good way to put it. No disagreement with the idea that your ears have to be the final verdict, but when you get off work, grab your gear, head to the venue, and have 5 minutes of sound check, it would be nice during the performance to stare down at that preset you were working on at home and not think, "I hope I didn't make this thing way to loud."

[jbuhajla]

That is a really good way to put it. No disagreement with the idea that your ears have to be the final verdict, but when you get off work, grab your gear, head to the venue, and have 5 minutes of sound check, it would be nice during the performance to stare down at that preset you were working on at home and not think, "I hope I didn't make this thing way to loud."

I've done just that. I hit a preset and almost blew my in-ears off (everyone else's in the band too). I apparently missed setting the gain staging/levels on that one. I quick visual reference can be a handy tool, just like a tuner makes quick work of tuning a guitar (even though we can all tune one without a tuner if need be). 

[Rocco_Crocco]

Where I live I cannot play at loud volumes... neighbors are too close, so for me getting my patches in the "even-ness" ballpark is preferred over spending time tweaking at rehearsal. I use this. It was recommended by another member here and it is free.

 

http://www.orban.com/orban/meter/

 

It gets me very close, so only minimal tweaking by ear is required at volume.

[rzumwalt]

Where I live I cannot play at loud volumes... neighbors are too close, so for me getting my patches in the "even-ness" ballpark is preferred over spending time tweaking at rehearsal. I use this. It was recommended by another member here and it is free.

 

http://www.orban.com/orban/meter/

 

It gets me very close, so only minimal tweaking by ear is required at volume.

Ok, this looks cool, and it meets my basic price restraint.