Celestion Redback IRs

[DunedinDragon]

 Just wanted to share some info on a new set of IRs from Celestion that just came out for those that might be interested.

 

They just recently introduced the Redback IRs as an addition to their set of IRs available.  I'm a big fan of the Celestion IRs and use them quite often.  The Redback IR from their description is designed to handle higher power settings, or what I would consider higher gain situations.  The difference being they are a bit slower in their rise at the low end, a slight bump between maybe 2k to 4.5k, and a fairly rapid drop-off on the high end.  For reference I've included their response profile chart.

 

Presently I've only been able to use this on a couple of my higher gain patches, but I have to say I'm pretty impressed.  In one case I matched the 4x12 high gain IR with a Marshall Plexi on a patch for Pat Travers 'Boom Boom (Out Go The Lights)' and was very impressed with how the IR cleaned up some of the low end muddiness and gave me greater articulation on the low end.  I also used their 2x12 closed back IR balanced version using a R121 mic on a Joe Walsh patch that uses a HiWatt amp.  It trimmed off enough of the high end that I was able to get rid of the hi-cut altogether on the patch, but it still retained all the high-mid bite that Joe Walsh is known for.  I have to say I'm pretty impressed with this IR and it might be worth it to you if you work a lot in higher gain patches.

 

 

[MonkeyXT]

Thanks for the info - this is definitely of interest.

[Verne-Bunsen]

Thanks for the post. I'm very keen to try out the Celestion offerings however all of my IR slots are full as it is. If we ever get an avenue to expand the capacity I'll definitely be checking them out.

[vmoncebaiz]

Nice,  Ive been using Celestion's Greenback, Creamback, and V30 Its for a while now.  They sound and feel so good.  I will certainly have to look into this Redback

[bradlake]

They are excellent so far...and translate well across various modelers and amp sims , and damn straight we need more user IR slots.

[willjrock]

I like these IRs but they are a bit limiting and the sounds are a bit too similar. These IRs alone wouldnt be much use to a person, but thankfully there are plenty more options. 

 

I have the 4x12 Greenbacks, 4x12 Creambacks65, 4x12 v30s, 1x12 open Greenbacks and the 4 x12 anniversarys and yet maybe 2 or 3 of these IRs have made their way into my presets. I like and use the Redwirez IRs in about 95% of my tones. Curious about the redbacks to an extent, but so far ive been slightly disappointed.

[DunedinDragon]

I like these IRs but they are a bit limiting and the sounds are a bit too similar. These IRs alone wouldnt be much use to a person, but thankfully there are plenty more options. 

 

I have the 4x12 Greenbacks, 4x12 Creambacks65, 4x12 v30s, 1x12 open Greenbacks and the 4 x12 anniversarys and yet maybe 2 or 3 of these IRs have made their way into my presets. I like and use the Redwirez IRs in about 95% of my tones. Curious about the redbacks to an extent, but so far ive been slightly disappointed.

 

I use various combinations throughout my patches of Redwirez, OwnHammer, and Celestion.  All fairly evenly dispersed across my various patches.

 

I would agree to some extent that the Celestions tend to be more similar than the others with only slight variations in the overall sound.  To me they seem to be more pure speaker and less cabinet coloration.  In some cases that works well for me, in other cases I prefer a bit more cabinet color and choose either OwnHammer (which has the most coloration difference to my ear) or the Redwirez.

 

I have noticed more of a tendency on my part to use the Celestions on higher gain patches particularly with my Les Paul.  These Redbacks respond much better on the higher gain patches than the others due to the tighter and more articulated bass response and faster top end drop off.  The other Celestions like the Blue Alnico or Creambacks I seem to use more often with my Gretsch, particularly for finger picked songs and sometimes jazzier tunes as they give me a bit more clean pure sound that brings out the hollow body characteristics.

[bradlake]

IMO, these Redbacks are amongst the best Ive used for higher gain patches on Helix , extremely tight with no fizz at any level,and loud cleans sound amazing. they also translate very well to all modeler formats..  

[rzumwalt]

 [...]

 

They just recently introduced the Redback IRs as an addition to their set of IRs available.  I'm a big fan of the Celestion IRs and use them quite often.  The Redback IR from their description is designed to handle higher power settings, or what I would consider higher gain situations.  The difference being they are a bit slower in their rise at the low end, a slight bump between maybe 2k to 4.5k, and a fairly rapid drop-off on the high end.  For reference I've included their response profile chart.

 

[...]

I'm curious. When you say "slower in the rise," do you mean the slope of the graph from the low to higher frequencies? I think that's what you mean, but at first I thought you meant in terms of the response of the IR over time - over the however many milliseconds long the IR file is. Now this is all a product of my own ignorance, I'm sure, but is there some time element that comes into play here? That is, does the frequency response change or decay over time in a unique way? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

[DunedinDragon]

I'm curious. When you say "slower in the rise," do you mean the slope of the graph from the low to higher frequencies? I think that's what you mean, but at first I thought you meant in terms of the response of the IR over time - over the however many milliseconds long the IR file is. Now this is all a product of my own ignorance, I'm sure, but is there some time element that comes into play here? That is, does the frequency response change or decay over time in a unique way? Sorry if this is a stupid question.

 

It probably would have been more accurate to say "flatter" in the rise as the frequency profile graph is simply a static representation of how a speaker responds at any given frequency in the frequency spectrum and has nothing to do with time.  If you were to compare the two pictures I've attached here, you see more clearly what I mean.  The 1st picture is the Redback and you can see that in the 20Hz to 100Hz it somewhat levels off until it gets past 100Hz, then it starts to rise pretty quickly up to 200Hz.  Compared to the 2nd picture of a Creamback response profile in which the line rises at a pretty steady rate all the way from 20Hz up to around 200Hz.  That's why the Redback doesn't feel as "boomy" or "mushy" on the low end and a bit more articulated.

 

You'll also notice a difference between the two graphs in the area above 1KHz up to about 5KHz which is really the main area where we hear the meat of guitar sounds.  The Redback stays much more level in that range than does the Creamback which has a significantly greater amount of response, meaning less harshness on the high end of the guitar spectrum with the Redback.

 

Hope that helps.

[HonestOpinion]

It probably would have been more accurate to say "flatter" in the rise as the frequency profile graph is simply a static representation of how a speaker responds at any given frequency in the frequency spectrum and has nothing to do with time.  If you were to compare the two pictures I've attached here, you see more clearly what I mean.  The 1st picture is the Redback and you can see that in the 20Hz to 100Hz it somewhat levels off until it gets past 100Hz, then it starts to rise pretty quickly up to 200Hz.  Compared to the 2nd picture of a Creamback response profile in which the line rises at a pretty steady rate all the way from 20Hz up to around 200Hz.  That's why the Redback doesn't feel as "boomy" or "mushy" on the low end and a bit more articulated.

 

You'll also notice a difference between the two graphs in the area above 1KHz up to about 5KHz which is really the main area where we hear the meat of guitar sounds.  The Redback stays much more level in that range than does the Creamback which has a significantly greater amount of response, meaning less harshness on the high end of the guitar spectrum with the Redback.

 

Hope that helps.

 

These graphs you included remind me yet again of why I would love to see L6 modify the parametric EQ so it is visually graphed the same way the Global EQ is currently displayed in the Editor. This would make it much simpler to adjust EQ curves to mimic the frequency response characteristics of various speaker models and just make the parametric easier to use in general, especially for visualizing the width of the Q.  

[zooey]

My reaction to the idea that they're "a bit too similar" is that I wouldn't expect the same speaker in different cabs to be that wildly different. I'd expect different low end from cab size and shape, and maybe different low and high end from open vs closed back, but the smaller-scale wiggles in response that make different speakers sound different come from the construction of the speaker itself, and are going to be similar in any cab. If those wiggles weren't so important, it'd be much easier to emulate any speaker with just EQ and filters.

 

I had a different reaction to the Redback samples than I usually do. Often I'm not that interested in open back tones, they don't have the fullness I typically like.

 

But with the Redbacks, I really liked the open back 1x12, and I also liked the larger cabs, open and closed, so I got the whole pack, which I haven't done before. Haven't had a chance to see what I think about actually playing through them, we'll see...

[Guitarzman]

I purchased the Redbacks ( 2 x 12 open-backs) a few weeks ago they are ok. They are quite loud and good for cleans but I also find the Cellestions a bit to similar and difficult to tweak!  The Redwirez have a lot more options and easier to tweak a tone with the Helix!  / JM2C

[willjrock]

I use various combinations throughout my patches of Redwirez, OwnHammer, and Celestion.  All fairly evenly dispersed across my various patches.

 

I would agree to some extent that the Celestions tend to be more similar than the others with only slight variations in the overall sound.  To me they seem to be more pure speaker and less cabinet coloration.  In some cases that works well for me, in other cases I prefer a bit more cabinet color and choose either OwnHammer (which has the most coloration difference to my ear) or the Redwirez.

 

I have noticed more of a tendency on my part to use the Celestions on higher gain patches particularly with my Les Paul.  These Redbacks respond much better on the higher gain patches than the others due to the tighter and more articulated bass response and faster top end drop off.  The other Celestions like the Blue Alnico or Creambacks I seem to use more often with my Gretsch, particularly for finger picked songs and sometimes jazzier tunes as they give me a bit more clean pure sound that brings out the hollow body characteristics.

 

 

IMO, these Redbacks are amongst the best Ive used for higher gain patches on Helix , extremely tight with no fizz at any level,and loud cleans sound amazing. they also translate very well to all modeler formats..  

 

 Appreciate the responses guys. You may have talked me into giving them a go.

 

 

My reaction to the idea that they're "a bit too similar" is that I wouldn't expect the same speaker in different cabs to be that wildly different.  

Ive probably just become too accustomed to Redwirez, where the same speaker in the same cab often can produce wildly different tones, true to real life.

 

 

Haven't had a chance to see what I think about actually playing through them, we'll see...

 

Please let us know because my feelings are just like yours in relation to the open back IRs.

 

I would agree to some extent that the Celestions tend to be more similar than the others with only slight variations in the overall sound.  To me they seem to be more pure speaker and less cabinet coloration.  In some cases that works well for me, in other cases I prefer a bit more cabinet color and choose either OwnHammer (which has the most coloration difference to my ear) or the Redwirez.

 

I dont know if you care to hear this or not, but the two things you are probably hearing as cabinet coloration with the Redwirez are 1) mic placement coloration (cone edge off axis, cap, cone edge, ect...which the celestions dont do much of at all) and  2) room coloration - as the mic gets further back it obviously picks up more of the room. Both of which i am sure you are well aware of after a minute of consideration. 

 

Side note: One thing i think is pretty cool about IRs is compared to plugins each company seems to impart its own very evident sonic signature. For instance it doesnt do you much good to have every 1073 EQ modeled plugin on the market, because they dont sound all that much different, but it is beneficial, and i do get a very different sound, from each companies recreation of a vintage Marshall cab loaded with 25 watt Greenbacks, and sure there is a multitude of explanations for this. Point is there is plenty of room for all brands in your library. Dont be afraid to take a chance if IRs are your thing.

[DunedinDragon]

 

I dont know if you care to hear this or not, but the two things you are probably hearing as cabinet coloration with the Redwirez are 1) mic placement coloration (cone edge off axis, cap, cone edge, ect...which the celestions dont do much of at all) and  2) room coloration - as the mic gets further back it obviously picks up more of the room. Both of which i am sure you are well aware of after a minute of consideration. 

 

 

 

Oh it's definitely cabinet coloration alright.  Especially with the OwnHammers.  I have full sets of all of these brands so it's pretty easy to match up specific brand cabinet, speaker configurations, mics and mic positions to get a real feel for the differences.  Particularly when comparing OwnHammer and Redwirez.  Not so much with Celestion since they don't specify cabinets other than generic open back or closed back, nor mic positions, just relative mixes (balanced, dark, dark2, etc.).

 

Redwirez certainly win the competition for detailed mic and room placement though...I'll give them that.

[rzumwalt]

[...]

 

Hope that helps.

Sure does. Thanks for your insights.

[willjrock]

Oh it's definitely cabinet coloration alright. Especially with the OwnHammers. I have full sets of all of these brands so it's pretty easy to match up specific brand cabinet, speaker configurations, mics and mic positions to get a real feel for the differences.

 

It is definitely not cabinet coloration lol. This is why cabs come loaded with different speakers, because of all the things that can be changed on the cab itself, the speakers are what produce the most dramatic variations in tone.

 

The differences you are hearing from brand to brand have much more to do with mic placement, engineering technique, outboard gear used, post processing decisions, sonic signature of the room, speaker quality, ect, than it has to do with "cabinet coloration".

 

The only way to get a feel for how much of a sonic print the cabinet imparts, is by using identical speakers, mics, placement, and everything else and swapping out the constructed enclosure. This is also why its nearly unheard of to swap out the constructed enclosure, and leave the same speakers in tact. Its not practical for the little benefit obtainable.

[amsdenj]

One thing that clearly differientiates the IR providers is the actual speakers they modeled. I suspect that's the greatest source of difference between the IRs, all else being the same. I'm guessing if they all had the same cabinet with the same speakers (not the same model of speaker, but the exact same speaker), and used the same mic, the differences wouldn't be that noticeable.

 

But that's exactly the variation we're looking for, that magic cabinet and speaker that for whatever reason is unique.

[willjrock]

Excellent points Amsdenj.

[zooey]

One thing that clearly differientiates the IR providers is the actual speakers they modeled. I suspect that's the greatest source of difference between the IRs, all else being the same. I'm guessing if they all had the same cabinet with the same speakers (not the same model of speaker, but the exact same speaker), and used the same mic, the differences wouldn't be that noticeable.

 

But that's exactly the variation we're looking for, that magic cabinet and speaker that for whatever reason is unique.

Very true, see this post from Kevin at Ownhammer.

 

That said, each IR maker does seem to have a bit of an identifiable character, even though I doubt I could pick them out reliably.