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Helix-DT cab question

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Best Answer robbieb61 , 22 May 2017 - 09:23 AM

Eliminate the cab sims as well, to my knowledge those were only applied to the DI out and had no effect whatsoever on what was being sent to the speaker. They were specifically for FOH.
 

That's not what I hear when I change cabs in my DT50. I plainly hear it changing the sound in the guitar speaker. 

At first I turned off the HD cabs in the DT50 (as well as the HD models of course) and ran straight into the amp with the L6 link using just the preamps. 
Then I tried running in with the amps and cabs of the Helix out of the L6 into the DT50. 

Problem is...the way it should work is amp then cab. So pushing an HX cab into the DT50 power amp section is kinda backwards and always had a muffled tone.

My final solution after tweaking since Oct. of 2015 when I first got my Helix is:  I use the preamps in Helix go out the L6 link using Topology IV only on the DT amp and use the HD cab inside the DT (whichever one fits your style)...after playing with that a bit and trying different cabs, I finally just used the HD cab model with a single celestion so that it "matches" the celestion in the DT combo amp itself. 
That way I'm hearing exactly what the FOH is getting out of the back of the DT 50.

Having said all of that...I've kinda put the DT50 away now and I'm just going to a Bose speaker system to monitor myself. 
The newest amp models over the past few months have gotten REAL good. And I'm using the PRS Archetype model for clean, crunch, and lead. It sounds really "real" and really warm. :)

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#1 Atlantic0

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Posted 21 May 2017 - 03:33 PM

Hey everyone.
 

I understand that the Helix+DT integration questions have been asked a thousand times before, so I will make this as brief as possible. I have a POD HD500X, finally got a DT25, gotta say these things work very nicely together. I also have a Helix. I've experimented with the DT25-DT50 Remote template on the Helix, used some DT Edit software, and I've read a lot of forum posts. I feel as though I've finally wrapped my head around the DT25, but the cabinet IR situation confuses me.

 

First, the Helix DT25-DT50 Remote template is set up to use the Helix's preamp models. This template's MIDI functionality only allows me to change the voicing settings, but not the DT25's cab model, which surprises me because the DT25 can receive a MIDI signal that will change it's internal cab model. Is Line 6 assuming that there is a specific DT25 cab model I'll be using when I pair the Helix and the DT25? Or should I turn the cab emulation off on the DT25 when using Helix preamp models?

 

Secondly, if I do turn the cab emulation on the DT25 off, can I use the Helix Cabs with the DT25? I believe I read that the Cab IRs that are built into the DT25 are specially designed to work with the custom Celestion speaker. Is this true? If I can use a cab from the Helix, where in the signal chain do I put it? Right after the Preamp, or is there a better place to put it, like in the FX return or something?

 

Thanks for taking the time to look over my question. I understand that "what sounds best" to me is how it's supposed to be set up, but I'm asking this to understand how the DT25 is set up and to figure out different ways that I can hook the Helix into the DT25. Thanks for the help.


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#2 SymphonicDischord

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 08:19 AM

I would skip on the template initially. The problem with it is the DT hasn't been "prepared" to run with the Helix and you'll end up running the Helix modeling into the DT modeling. I would start by hooking the amp up to DT edit and turning everything off; basically turning it into a tube power amp with a few adjustable settings (topology, pentode/diode, class A/AB). Eliminate the cab sims as well, to my knowledge those were only applied to the DI out and had no effect whatsoever on what was being sent to the speaker. They were specifically for FOH.

Now, these next steps are subjective and just what I do but, it's a decent starting point. I setup up my patch with the input set to guitar (or Variax if your using one) run through whatever amp model, FX, etc. I'm using and then set the output of the first path to digital. I will also use the instant commands to send Midi data to the DT to select the topology, class, pentode/diode setttigs that I want with the model I'm using.

I then feed the DI out from the DT back into my Helix's mic input on path 2. This I will run through a HX cab or IR and then set the output path to XLR. Now I am able to still monitor my sound through the amp but also have a full signal being sent to FOH. I usually tweak my patches either with my studio monitors or through my Alto TS110A.

Hope this helps to clarify things a bit for you and here's a link to one of the more complete threads on this topic.

http://line6.com/sup...n/?fromsearch=1
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#3 robbieb61

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 09:23 AM   Best Answer

Eliminate the cab sims as well, to my knowledge those were only applied to the DI out and had no effect whatsoever on what was being sent to the speaker. They were specifically for FOH.
 

That's not what I hear when I change cabs in my DT50. I plainly hear it changing the sound in the guitar speaker. 

At first I turned off the HD cabs in the DT50 (as well as the HD models of course) and ran straight into the amp with the L6 link using just the preamps. 
Then I tried running in with the amps and cabs of the Helix out of the L6 into the DT50. 

Problem is...the way it should work is amp then cab. So pushing an HX cab into the DT50 power amp section is kinda backwards and always had a muffled tone.

My final solution after tweaking since Oct. of 2015 when I first got my Helix is:  I use the preamps in Helix go out the L6 link using Topology IV only on the DT amp and use the HD cab inside the DT (whichever one fits your style)...after playing with that a bit and trying different cabs, I finally just used the HD cab model with a single celestion so that it "matches" the celestion in the DT combo amp itself. 
That way I'm hearing exactly what the FOH is getting out of the back of the DT 50.

Having said all of that...I've kinda put the DT50 away now and I'm just going to a Bose speaker system to monitor myself. 
The newest amp models over the past few months have gotten REAL good. And I'm using the PRS Archetype model for clean, crunch, and lead. It sounds really "real" and really warm. :)


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#4 SymphonicDischord

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 10:37 AM

That's not what I hear when I change cabs in my DT50. I plainly hear it changing the sound in the guitar speaker.

At first I turned off the HD cabs in the DT50 (as well as the HD models of course) and ran straight into the amp with the L6 link using just the preamps.
Then I tried running in with the amps and cabs of the Helix out of the L6 into the DT50.

Problem is...the way it should work is amp then cab. So pushing an HX cab into the DT50 power amp section is kinda backwards and always had a muffled tone.


Fair enough and I should have clarified that I use the DT25 head, so maybe that's why I'm not hearing any difference?
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#5 robbieb61

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 11:52 AM

I don't THINK there was any difference in that between the DT50 combo and DT25 head. Doesn't make sense that there would be. 
I also had a head cab made for my DT50 and would use it as a head with my Bogner 4x12 cab at some gigs in the past. But yeah...on the DT50 I could plainly hear the difference between "no cab" and a 4 x 12 cab selected using DT Edit.
That's why I ended up just choosing the 1 x12 celestion HD cab in the DT50. I didn't want anything to mess with what I was hearing out of the speaker itself. 

Maybe they changed that in the later versions like the DT25. I got my DT50 combo amp back in 2011 so they may have altered that by the time the DT25's hit the scene.


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#6 klangmaler

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Posted 22 May 2017 - 11:57 AM

Let's discuss all this here:

http://line6.com/sup...m/23-dt50-dt25/


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#7 Atlantic0

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 01:18 PM

Thanks to everyone who replied.

 

 

I would skip on the template initially. The problem with it is the DT hasn't been "prepared" to run with the Helix and you'll end up running the Helix modeling into the DT modeling. I would start by hooking the amp up to DT edit and turning everything off; basically turning it into a tube power amp with a few adjustable settings (topology, pentode/diode, class A/AB). Eliminate the cab sims as well, to my knowledge those were only applied to the DI out and had no effect whatsoever on what was being sent to the speaker. They were specifically for FOH.

 

Thanks for this. I was aware that I needed to turn off the amps, but thanks for making sure I had that squared away. As robbieb61 mentioned, I too notice the cabinet emulation (on the DT25 Combo at least) changes the tone. The cabinet-simulated output get's the microphone emulation applied to it, and to my knowledge it's the only thing that does (makes sense!). Perhaps that's what you were thinking of.

 

 

I then feed the DI out from the DT back into my Helix's mic input on path 2. This I will run through a HX cab or IR and then set the output path to XLR. Now I am able to still monitor my sound through the amp but also have a full signal being sent to FOH. I usually tweak my patches either with my studio monitors or through my Alto TS110A.

Hope this helps to clarify things a bit for you and here's a link to one of the more complete threads on this topic.

http://line6.com/sup...n/?fromsearch=1

 

This is a really good idea, and I'm definitely going to try this! Thanks for the link as well.

 

My final solution after tweaking since Oct. of 2015 when I first got my Helix is:  I use the preamps in Helix go out the L6 link using Topology IV only on the DT amp and use the HD cab inside the DT (whichever one fits your style)...after playing with that a bit and trying different cabs, I finally just used the HD cab model with a single celestion so that it "matches" the celestion in the DT combo amp itself. 
That way I'm hearing exactly what the FOH is getting out of the back of the DT 50.

 

That's a great idea with using the Celestion cab emulation. I'll likely use the Helix in lieu of the HD amp emulation stage, find an IR that works with the majority of my tones, and just adjust the power amp settings on the amp itself (matching the 4 presets on each channel to the corresponding topology, so the preset selector works only as a topology selector). Thanks for the advice!

 

 

Let's discuss all this here:

http://line6.com/sup...m/23-dt50-dt25/

 

Thanks Klangmaler. You're right, I thought my question was more Helix-centric, but it seems that it is indeed more about the DT25. I'm not sure how to move the post, but I have more questions, I'll be sure to post them there.


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#8 radatats

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Posted 23 May 2017 - 03:15 PM

just to add my 2 cents, someone else was asking about the template and I dug into it for them.  I wrote a whole post about it at the link below but basically it seems to have been intended to use the 1/4 to the DT FX return, not the L6 link.  That's most likely why it doesn't address the DT amp or cab modeling.  Using the FX return would bypass all that anyways.  Good points above about using cab modeling to match FOH.  Personally I don't bother with that but I understand what you are doing.  Hope this helps a bit.

 

http://line6.com/sup...te/#entry214400


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Quit complaining and DO something or help somebody with their issues...


#9 Atlantic0

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Posted 25 May 2017 - 02:49 PM

Thanks radatats! That other poster was me, but now if anyone is struggling with the same questions in the future, they can easily find both threads.

 

I do have another question for you, in case you know the answer. What does the cab emulation do? It obviously has a cab, and the power amp in bypasses all emulation, so what is the point of the emulation? Are they IRs, EQ profiles, or something else? Is the speaker inside an FRFR? I haven't been able to find out this last piece of the puzzle, so if you have any info on it, I'd love to hear what you know/think. Thanks again for all the help across many posts.


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