Output levels seem a bit low

[kylotan]

Simple question: is anyone else finding the output level of the Helix a little low?

 

I have a fairly high gain preamp-only patch - overdrive, PV Panama - with the master up at around 8 or so - and I send it from the 1/4 mono out into the return of my 120 watt tube amp. I also added a Gain block in there with +3dB or similar. And what I find is that I need the volume dial to be around half-way to get a decent level for rehearsal.

 

If I use the amp itself and not the Helix, I would rarely need to push the pre-amp past 3 or 4 out of 10 to get the same sort of levels. So it seems like I have a lot more headroom on the real preamp, but with the Helix I had to almost max out the master volume and add an extra gain block to get something where I have reasonable headroom using the volume dial.

 

It's not a problem, as such; with this in place, I can gig with the volume dial somewhere between 30%-70% depending on the venue. But I'm surprised that I had to push the levels so hard in the effects blocks to get to that sweet spot.

 

Is this something anyone else is noticing?

[jbuhajla]

Is your amp looking for a line or instrument level signal into its return? 

[kylotan]

No idea, but 1/4 output should be line level anyway, right? If the amp expects instrument level and it gets line level then it would be louder than I might want, rather than quieter.

[benlampard]

Is the 1/4 out set to "line" level in the main settings page? I would think that you'd want to send line level into your FX return, but that may not be the case.

[jbuhajla]

No idea, but 1/4 output should be line level anyway, right? If the amp expects instrument level and it gets line level then it would be louder than I might want, rather than quieter.

The 1/4" sends/outputs on the Helix can be set to instrument or line. I think default is instrument. 

 

Global Settings>Ins/Outs>1/4" outputs

[kylotan]

Trying to reply from a different computer since the forum wouldn't let me post from home:

 

My 1/4" output is definitely set to line. And my total signal boost is actually +8dB; +3dB on a Gain block, and +5dB on the Output block itself. This seems like quite a lot! If I didn't have this then I'd need to turn the Helix volume up to almost full just to get the same loudness levels as having my regular pre-amp on 3 or 4 out of 10.

[skyfirez1]

Use the optical trem as your last blcock. Put rate and speed at 1 and 1 this will mak all of your patches pop

[jbuhajla]

Use the optical trem as your last blcock. Put rate and speed at 1 and 1 this will mak all of your patches pop

This won't help gain staging your signal chain. 

[Joepeggio]

The large volume knob on Helix only cuts volume. At full volume or disabled is when you actually get the instrument or line level.

[jbuhajla]

Trying to reply from a different computer since the forum wouldn't let me post from home:

 

My 1/4" output is definitely set to line. And my total signal boost is actually +8dB; +3dB on a Gain block, and +5dB on the Output block itself. This seems like quite a lot! If I didn't have this then I'd need to turn the Helix volume up to almost full just to get the same loudness levels as having my regular pre-amp on 3 or 4 out of 10.

You should actually have the volume knob on the Helix turned all the way up. Supposedly, that is "unity gain" for the output when it is set to line level. Some players disable the volume knob for the 1/4" outs when connected via 4CM to ensure they are getting the full signal out. 

[kylotan]

I need the volume knob to have some range of motion both upwards and downwards so that I can adjust the level according to the situation. If I calibrate my patches with the assumption that the volume dial is on full, then any time I might end up being too quiet (e.g. standing further from my amp, or working with a weaker power amp than usual), I then have to go in and edit all my patches, which is not practical in a live situation.

 

If the volume dial is solely an attenuator, is there any guide to the relative levels of having that dial at different points? e.g. Is 12'o'clock -6dB, or -12dB, or... ?

 

And is there any other way to create a significant global signal boost? Ideally only for the 1/4 outputs? I might be misremembering but I think the output block only goes up as far as +6dB.

 

EDIT: I mean, this sounds conceptually like a job for the Global EQ... but that is buried in a menu, and the volume dial is right there on the top of the unit. It makes sense to be able to adjust this via the large dial.

[jbuhajla]

If I calibrate my patches with the assumption that the volume dial is on full, then any time I might end up being too quiet (e.g. standing further from my amp, or working with a weaker power amp than usual), I then have to go in and edit all my patches, which is not practical in a live situation.

 

The volume control on the Helix is a volume cut. You can still use it that way. If you need more volume for a particular venue, then I would turn up the master volume on your amp, and you still have a volume cut on the Helix if necessary. 

 

I guess I am not quite understanding the particular situations you are needing to bend over and adjust the Helix volume knob for. Are you just playing through an amp and relying on stage volume, are you mic'ing your cab through PA, etc... Your original post mentions running 4 cable method to a guitar amp, but your recent post mentions running through different power amps and playing in different live situations. 

[trolley]

Simple question: is anyone else finding the output level of the Helix a little low?

 

I have a fairly high gain preamp-only patch - overdrive, PV Panama - with the master up at around 8 or so - and I send it from the 1/4 mono out into the return of my 120 watt tube amp. I also added a Gain block in there with +3dB or similar. And what I find is that I need the volume dial to be around half-way to get a decent level for rehearsal.

 

If I use the amp itself and not the Helix, I would rarely need to push the pre-amp past 3 or 4 out of 10 to get the same sort of levels. So it seems like I have a lot more headroom on the real preamp, but with the Helix I had to almost max out the master volume and add an extra gain block to get something where I have reasonable headroom using the volume dial.

 

It's not a problem, as such; with this in place, I can gig with the volume dial somewhere between 30%-70% depending on the venue. But I'm surprised that I had to push the levels so hard in the effects blocks to get to that sweet spot.

 

Is this something anyone else is noticing?

 

A dumb question - you don't have a cab block in it, do you?

[kylotan]

The volume control on the Helix is a volume cut. You can still use it that way. If you need more volume for a particular venue, then I would turn up the master volume on your amp, and you still have a volume cut on the Helix if necessary. 

 

I guess I am not quite understanding the particular situations you are needing to bend over and adjust the Helix volume knob for. Are you just playing through an amp and relying on stage volume, are you mic'ing your cab through PA, etc... Your original post mentions running 4 cable method to a guitar amp, but your recent post mentions running through different power amps and playing in different live situations. 

 

I don't have a master post-loop volume on the amp. The current setup is guitar -> helix -> amp loop return. Sometimes there's a mic on the cab going to the PA, sometimes there's not.

 

There are 2 major situations in which I play, and I want to use the same patch(es) for these:

1. Rehearsal room. I dial in the volume, then maybe adjust up or down depending on how things are sounding that week, based on where people are standing, whether we've got everyone in this time, where the cabs are, etc.
2. Gigs. I dial in a volume that I think is right, which may be very different from what works in the rehearsal room. And then the sound person might ask me to increase or decrease it to his/her taste.

That's why I want my default volume to be broadly in the middle of the dial, so I have headroom either side to make these adjustments. I don't want to have the dial at full and then have the sound engineer telling me I need to be a lot louder, or for me to discover I'm too quiet during soundcheck, and to then have to fiddle around with the Global EQ which, after being set, is basically out of sight and out of mind.

 

(And to Trolley; no, there is no cab block involved. This is just a preamp block and various effects which I calibrated to broadly unity gain levels.)

[PeterHamm]

Use the optical trem as your last blcock. Put rate and speed at 1 and 1 this will mak all of your patches pop

 

You do realize that this doesn't make a difference in terms of fixing input/output levels, right? It looks like you think that it does.

[skyfirez1]

You do realize that this doesn't make a difference in terms of fixing input/output levels, right? It looks like you think that it does.

Substantiate that statement

[PeterHamm]

Substantiate that statement

 

We're talking about input/output levels and you're talking about adding a modulation effect.

 

It's a little like, "No I don't walk to work, I carry my lunch".

 

Your suggestion is totally disconnected from the actual problem seeking a solution.

[skyfirez1]

I don't know what to tell you man. It worked for me. I'll make a video for you tonight. Mmmmk?

[PeterHamm]

I don't know what to tell you man. It worked for me. I'll make a video for you tonight. Mmmmk?

 

It solved a volume/level/impedance issue? Just by adding a term? yeah, I'd need to see a video proving that.

[phil_m]

Use the optical trem as your last blcock. Put rate and speed at 1 and 1 this will mak all of your patches pop

 

 

Substantiate that statement

 

 

I don't know what to tell you man. It worked for me. I'll make a video for you tonight. Mmmmk?

 

All of the modulation blocks have a level parameter, so I suppose it's possible to get some amount of boost with an output block (although, I believe it's limited only +6dB for those blocks). The level control on those blocks is really there for the purpose of getting the level of signal with the effect on to match what's there with it off. It's not going to do anything to help the situation described here.

[skyfirez1]

You're over complicating the issue here and refusing to try it.

 

 

Have you even bothered to try my suggestion or are you just gonna sit here board warrior?

 

 

Just add a single block to the end of your chain for optical trem and setting rate intensity both @ 1

[cruisinon2]

"Mmmmk?"...😂

[PeterHamm]

You're over complicating the issue here and refusing to try it.

 

all due respect, you're over-complicating the issue by suggesting a "solution" that those of us who've successfully used this product for months or even years already know has nothing to do with the problem.

 

Ignoring that for a moment, OP, I re-read your original statement.

 

imho, there is no reason to have the big volume control at anything but max for this use, and then adjust gains down if necessary in the output block. That big volume control is at unity when it's on full. Everything else is a cut.

[skyfirez1]

Yes it's overly complicated to add 1 block to your signal chain that will liven up your overall signal. It's too hard!!! Too complicated !!!

[phil_m]

You're over complicating the issue here and refusing to try it.

 

 

Have you even bothered to try my suggestion or are you just gonna sit here board warrior?

 

 

Just add a single block to the end of your chain for optical trem and setting rate intensity both @ 1

 

[PeterHamm]

 

 

yeah, what would you know... Your comments have only been found helpful on here 3,455 times...

[PeterHamm]

Yes it's overly complicated to add 1 block to your signal chain that will liven up your overall signal. It's too hard!!! Too complicated !!!

Yes, it would be for me, as my chains are usually already rather full, and your suggestion is not really helpful imho.

[skyfirez1]

Well you can lead a horse to water. But you can't make him drink.

[PeterHamm]

Well you can lead a horse to water. But you can't make him drink.

 

couldn't agree more, but perhaps for different reasons...

[kylotan]

Much as I appreciate this thread being bumped, can the mods perhaps do something about this optical-trem obsession?

 

PeterHamm: when you say "there is no reason to have the big volume control at anything but max for this use, and then adjust gains down if necessary in the output block", I think you're missing my overall request, elaborated on in the 14th post above, which is basically - I want an analog dial on the floorboard that lets me move volume up or down, according to the situation. If it's already at full, I can't move it up.

 

Right now, I'm considering pushing it up to more like 75% and removing/reducing the level boosts in the output/gain blocks to compensate, so I still have some degree of freedom in both directions on the volume dial.

[cruisinon2]

Much as I appreciate this thread being bumped, can the mods perhaps do something about this optical-trem obsession?

In my experience, very little can be done about obsessions without medication...;)

Besides, a good storm-off sprinkled liberally with righteous indignation is always funny...you could almost hear the door slamming (or was that the tremolo?). 😉

[PeterHamm]

Kylotan, I honestly wonder if it wouldn't be way more useful to use gain blocks with footswitches.

 

What I've seen guys do is this. One block is +3, one is +6 and together they are +9. Leave the +3 one on all the time except when you want to back off (I use my guitar volume for that, btw, and it works extraordinarily, but that doesn't work for everyone).

 

Between the 4 iterations you'd have, 0, +3, +6 and +9, wouldn't you have all you need.

 

Remember, all you're doing with the big volume knob is lowering from unity, never "increasing gain" per se.

[kylotan]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I have many problems with it: I don't always have space for 2 extra blocks, I'd have to remember to do this on every preset I use, I'm already using all my footswitches, I'd prefer more granularity than 3dB anyway, and I'd prefer to be using the same mechanism for turning it up as for turning it down.

 

I appreciate being told that the large dial is essentially an attenuator, and I can try and work with that, but it's a poor design if you ask me. The manual even expects you to be playing with it somewhere in the middle range (as implied by "slowly turn up the volume knob", presumably stopping when it's 'loud enough'), so it is really unfortunate that as soon as I plug it into a line-level device I'm supposed to now have it at 100% with no scope for pushing it a little harder.

 

I will probably experiment with the global EQ later (assuming that has an overall gain parameter - the manual doesn't show one), because I guess that is probably as good as it is likely to get.

[phil_m]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I have many problems with it: I don't always have space for 2 extra blocks, I'd have to remember to do this on every preset I use, I'm already using all my footswitches, I'd prefer more granularity than 3dB anyway, and I'd prefer to be using the same mechanism for turning it up as for turning it down.

 

I appreciate being told that the large dial is essentially an attenuator, and I can try and work with that, but it's a poor design if you ask me. The manual even expects you to be playing with it somewhere in the middle range (as implied by "slowly turn up the volume knob", presumably stopping when it's 'loud enough'), so it is really unfortunate that as soon as I plug it into a line-level device I'm supposed to now have it at 100% with no scope for pushing it a little harder.

 

I will probably experiment with the global EQ later (assuming that has an overall gain parameter - the manual doesn't show one), because I guess that is probably as good as it is likely to get.

 

In your earlier post, you mentioned that you have the output block set to +5dB... You have the ability to set that up to +20dB, so it seems like there should be plenty of volume on tap between that and gain blocks.

 

One other thing, is you mentioned the master volume in the amp block. That does affect the volume, but it also affects the saturation. The channel volume is the overall output for the amp block, so if you need a little bit more from the amp, you can add it there.

[cruisinon2]

I appreciate being told that the large dial is essentially an attenuator, and I can try and work with that, but it's a poor design if you ask me. The manual even expects you to be playing with it somewhere in the middle range (as implied by "slowly turn up the volume knob", presumably stopping when it's 'loud enough'), so it is really unfortunate that as soon as I plug it into a line-level device I'm supposed to now have it at 100% with no scope for pushing it a little harder.

If it makes you feel any better, I've never run the master volume wide open on this, or any other similar device... why? Because having zero headroom sucks. There are a thousand ways to raise or lower a patch's overall volume, or to level the volumes between different patches, and everyone is free to pick their favorite. But if need be, I want to be able to make slight adjustments up or down on the fly, just by grabbing the master volume knob....it's perfectly feasible to set things up so that this is possible, and your tone needn't suffer as a result.

[jbuhajla]

It solved a volume/level/impedance issue? Just by adding a term? yeah, I'd need to see a video proving that.

The user has been posting that same statement on numerous other posts as a fix. I suspect he is trolling. I could be wrong though. 

[jbuhajla]

I don't have a master post-loop volume on the amp. The current setup is guitar -> helix -> amp loop return. Sometimes there's a mic on the cab going to the PA, sometimes there's not.

 

There are 2 major situations in which I play, and I want to use the same patch(es) for these:

1. Rehearsal room. I dial in the volume, then maybe adjust up or down depending on how things are sounding that week, based on where people are standing, whether we've got everyone in this time, where the cabs are, etc.
2. Gigs. I dial in a volume that I think is right, which may be very different from what works in the rehearsal room. And then the sound person might ask me to increase or decrease it to his/her taste.

That's why I want my default volume to be broadly in the middle of the dial, so I have headroom either side to make these adjustments. I don't want to have the dial at full and then have the sound engineer telling me I need to be a lot louder, or for me to discover I'm too quiet during soundcheck, and to then have to fiddle around with the Global EQ which, after being set, is basically out of sight and out of mind.

 

(And to Trolley; no, there is no cab block involved. This is just a preamp block and various effects which I calibrated to broadly unity gain levels.)

Since you cannot control volume on the amp side of things, I recommend turning the volume knob on the Helix all the way up, then control the volume of your output on your preset with one of the expression pedals, or put a volume block at the end of your chain. Yes, you will have to do that to every preset, but that is what you are stuck with having an amp with no power amp master control. It's either that or use an external volume pedal between your Helix and amp. 

 

Your sound person tells you to turn up/down volume to taste, they do not control it?

[kylotan]

In your earlier post, you mentioned that you have the output block set to +5dB... You have the ability to set that up to +20dB, so it seems like there should be plenty of volume on tap between that and gain blocks.

 

One other thing, is you mentioned the master volume in the amp block. That does affect the volume, but it also affects the saturation. The channel volume is the overall output for the amp block, so if you need a little bit more from the amp, you can add it there.

 

Ah, maybe I was misremembering the range of the Output block. I know some blocks only offer +6dB so I thought that was the case with Output. I think this will be my plan - to push the Output block higher, and aim to keep the volume dial somewhere between 50% and 75%.

 

(If it seems like I'm being lazy and not checking for myself, it's because my home computer doesn't let me post replies to this thread, strangely. Right now I'm posting from work. So when I am at the Helix, I can't post, and vice versa.)

[kylotan]

Since you cannot control volume on the amp side of things, I recommend turning the volume knob on the Helix all the way up, then control the volume of your output on your preset with one of the expression pedals, or put a volume block at the end of your chain. Yes, you will have to do that to every preset, but that is what you are stuck with having an amp with no power amp master control. It's either that or use an external volume pedal between your Helix and amp. 

 

Your sound person tells you to turn up/down volume to taste, they do not control it?

 

I do still think that having a large volume dial act only as an attenuator is a flawed decision, for the same reason that a mixing desk usually lets you push the sliders above 0dB - being able to boost the output is useful. But, it is what it is. I will probably just try and push the Output block higher so that I can have the volume down lower.

 

The sound engineer controls the levels on the PA, but they want to make sure I am producing the right levels onstage for their microphones and for whatever other constraints they may have. That then gets fed into their desk and then to the PA.

[jbuhajla]

Ah, maybe I was misremembering the range of the Output block. I know some blocks only offer +6dB so I thought that was the case with Output. I think this will be my plan - to push the Output block higher, and aim to keep the volume dial somewhere between 50% and 75%.

 

(If it seems like I'm being lazy and not checking for myself, it's because my home computer doesn't let me post replies to this thread, strangely. Right now I'm posting from work. So when I am at the Helix, I can't post, and vice versa.)

The gain blocks also go up to at least +6dB (can't quite remember and I too am at work)

 

...or you can try the optical tremolo at the end of your chain. I hear great things about that.