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Dt25/dt50, Cabinet Necessary?


Best Answer BigChas52 , 28 September 2013 - 04:41 PM

No, you cannot use the DI on the DT25/50 without a speaker load.  Well you can, but you'll burn out the amp.  The output section is pushing wattage even if you are using the DI.  Sorry.

 

To second what Zap said, the DI emulations coming out of the DT are pretty much that same as what is coming out of the HD500, with a maybe touch of the output section mixed in.  Unless you are playing alone on stage, no one will notice the difference in the mix except you.

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#1 ext1jdh

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 12:23 PM

This is probably a stupid question that's been answered elsewhere, but I wasn't able to find it.

 

I know that on a standard amplifier, not placing load on the output can kill the amp. With the DT25/DT50's direct out, is it possible to fire them up and use their voicings without an attached cabinet?

 

I play on a fairly quiet stage so I can't use even a low-wattage amp & cabinet (normally a Blackheart Handsome Devil). I was thinking about picking up a DT25 to get the voicings and cab simulation along with my HD500 to get a better sound. Since I need to keep the stage quiet, I was thinking about just pushing it out the DI rather than micing a cabinet, but didnt want to kill it by not adding any load. 


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#2 TheRealZap

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:17 PM

You don't need a DT to do what you're trying to do... all of that is already built into the pod.


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#3 ext1jdh

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 03:20 PM

I'm currently doing that with the HD500. The live tubes sound better. There are upper and lower natural harmonics that a tube generates which modelers can't quite hit yet. 

 

The HD500 sounds good, but it sounds better with the DT


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#4 BigChas52

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:41 PM   Best Answer

No, you cannot use the DI on the DT25/50 without a speaker load.  Well you can, but you'll burn out the amp.  The output section is pushing wattage even if you are using the DI.  Sorry.

 

To second what Zap said, the DI emulations coming out of the DT are pretty much that same as what is coming out of the HD500, with a maybe touch of the output section mixed in.  Unless you are playing alone on stage, no one will notice the difference in the mix except you.


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#5 ext1jdh

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 05:28 PM

Thanks Chas. The only other way to set that up would be to drop an attenuator on it, and frankly I don't want to deal with the hassle. 

 

 

I was listening to the 500 dry and the DT25 DI and could hear a difference, with the 500 being brighter and the DT25 sounding warmer. In the group I play with and in the circumstances that I play, the difference can be heard (there are a lot of times that I'm solo on stage doing padding).

 

Guess I'll throw a little tube pre after the 500 and see if that warms it up enough. Not quite the same as a few EL25's


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#6 MGblade

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Posted 28 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

I made my zelf à 200 watt 16ohm dummy load.
Works great and is very easy and cheap to make, two 8 ohm 100watt heatsink resistors in series mounted in à dicast enclosure.
I'm using it when playing in ear.
THE thing do gets à bit hot after some time.
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#7 stumblinman

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:03 AM

No, you cannot use the DI on the DT25/50 without a speaker load. Well you can, but you'll burn out the amp. The output section is pushing wattage even if you are using the DI. Sorry.

To second what Zap said, the DI emulations coming out of the DT are pretty much that same as what is coming out of the HD500, with a maybe touch of the output section mixed in. Unless you are playing alone on stage, no one will notice the difference in the mix except you.

This has been asked before, and if you take the time to actually check the specs on the DT25 it says right on the page:

Speaker jack-sensing provides relay driven output transformer protection circuit.

So is Line 6 lying about it? Has someone burned up a DT25 trying this? Who's correct? Chas or Line 6?
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#8 phil_m

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 07:19 AM

This has been asked before, and if you take the time to actually check the specs on the DT25 it says right on the page:

Speaker jack-sensing provides relay driven output transformer protection circuit.

 

 

If I remember correctly, the DT25 has this, but the DT50 doesn't. But it's a safety feature than something that was meant be used all the time. I wouldn't go running the DT25 without a speaker connected.

 

I don't remember for sure, but I think you may be able to run the DT25 silently by using the XLR output with the amp on standby in low volume mode... I don't remember, really. But Zap is right, this isn't functionally any different than using the HD500. The amp models are the same.


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#9 stumblinman

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 08:45 AM

If I remember correctly, the DT25 has this, but the DT50 doesn't. But it's a safety feature than something that was meant be used all the time. I wouldn't go running the DT25 without a speaker connected.

I don't remember for sure, but I think you may be able to run the DT25 silently by using the XLR output with the amp on standby in low volume mode... I don't remember, really. But Zap is right, this isn't functionally any different than using the HD500. The amp models are the same.


So the relay doesn't take the output transformer out of the loop? This needs clarification so folks aren't giving out erroneous information.

Either it makes it perfectly safe to run without a speaker, or it doesn't protect it at all. I fail to see how it could do any good to make it a "ticking time bomb" scenario.

If the experts can't provide concrete answers, perhaps an email to Line 6 might help. I will do so and post any reply I receive here, as this has been a point of contention a few times in the past.
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#10 phil_m

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:03 AM

All I'm saying is the relay was put there to provide protection for the output transformer under a no-load condition. I don't believe it's there to give you the ability to use the amp long term without a cab attached. After all, it really doesn't get you anything, anyway.


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#11 stumblinman

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:07 AM

Just got off the phone with L6 support. The tech said he uses his DT25 all the time with no speaker attached. Just xlr out to DI or recording interface. He also said his coworker does the same thing. He does leave it in standby, but says no speaker load is required. Since the line out is transformer tapped, that sounds good enough for me.
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#12 phil_m

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:14 AM

Just got off the phone with L6 support. The tech said he uses his DT25 all the time with no speaker attached. Just xlr out to DI or recording interface. He also said his coworker does the same thing. He does leave it in standby, but says no speaker load is required. Since the line out is transformer tapped, that sounds good enough for me.

 

 

Good to know... But... If the relay takes the transformer out of the circuit, how exactly would this tap work? I don't think the XLR out is actually getting a signal that's being affected by the power tubes then. In fact, if the amp's in standby, there's no way it could. I just think the XLR out is giving you a purely modeled signal at this point.


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#13 TheRealZap

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:25 AM

AKA the same thing the pod is giving you... circle complete.

 

 just think the XLR out is giving you a purely modeled signal at this point.


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#14 phil_m

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 09:28 AM

AKA the same thing the pod is giving you... circle complete.

 

 

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#15 stumblinman

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 10:53 AM

More conjecture. I'm going to add mine now. Perhaps the relay IS the dummy load the transformer needs. Makes more sense than saying its a transformer tapped line out then using power amp modeling, doesn't it? It says cabinet modeling, but not power amp.

Either way, it is safe to run without a speaker attached.
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#16 phil_m

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 11:07 AM

More conjecture. I'm going to add mine now. Perhaps the relay IS the dummy load the transformer needs.

 

 

What's conjecture? If the amp is in standby, there's no voltage being applied across the power tubes, hence no current going to the transformer... That's not really conjecture. That's just the way the circuit would work.

 

The question would be whether or not is would be safe to use the XLR output with the amp not in standby with no speaker load attached.


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#17 phil_m

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:01 PM

Well, there's voltage across the heater elements for the tubes, but the full voltage isn't being applied to the power tubes... That's kind of the whole point of standby. I'm actually not trying to argue with you. I'm kind of genuinely interested as well if you could use the DT25's XLR out without a cab attached and not in standby. The thing is the XLR out is supposedly tapped off the transformer, so if the relay is disconnecting the transformer, I don't know how it would work. It's entirely possible I'm not understanding everything, though.


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#18 stumblinman

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:04 PM

Hmm... Makes me want to test tone differences between standby on and standby off. See if one sounds different than the other.
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#19 Brazzy

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 12:52 PM

This is a good question as I'm getting a DT 50 Head very soon. I will likely call Line 6 and ask this question if I can't find the answer in the manual.


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I mostly play at home  and am always having fun learning how to play guitar so when I post a reply to try and help give ideas you know where I'm coming from. Rock-On!! Oh, and if I don't respond promptly I'm probably playing guitar or my computer locked up from multitasking 'cause I'm using Gear Box, HD500 Edit, Audacity and tab filled browsers all at the same time, Hahahaaaa. Surprisingly enough my 'puter handles the load more times than not. Lastly I'm not a salesman, I'm not trying to sell anyone anything here. "Riffcasts Riffworld" "RiffRumble Entry" "Shifftie" "M.O.S.U.A Two" "Bass Catszz" "Blasted Runtime Error I" "Match 30" "SoundCloud Playlist"
 

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#20 phil_m

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

This is a good question as I'm getting a DT 50 Head very soon. I will likely call Line 6 and ask this question if I can't find the answer in the manual.

 

 

The DT50 doesn't have this relay... So running it without a speaker load connected could and eventually will damage the output transformer.


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#21 Brazzy

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 01:02 PM

The DT50 doesn't have this relay... So running it without a speaker load connected could and eventually will damage the output transformer.

 

Hey, Thanks for that tidbit. I'm going to read that pdf now, LOL.


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I mostly play at home  and am always having fun learning how to play guitar so when I post a reply to try and help give ideas you know where I'm coming from. Rock-On!! Oh, and if I don't respond promptly I'm probably playing guitar or my computer locked up from multitasking 'cause I'm using Gear Box, HD500 Edit, Audacity and tab filled browsers all at the same time, Hahahaaaa. Surprisingly enough my 'puter handles the load more times than not. Lastly I'm not a salesman, I'm not trying to sell anyone anything here. "Riffcasts Riffworld" "RiffRumble Entry" "Shifftie" "M.O.S.U.A Two" "Bass Catszz" "Blasted Runtime Error I" "Match 30" "SoundCloud Playlist"
 

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#22 Stratman82

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:29 PM

I'm currently doing that with the HD500. The live tubes sound better. There are upper and lower natural harmonics that a tube generates which modelers can't quite hit yet. 

 

The HD500 sounds good, but it sounds better with the DT

After 2 years experience with a DT25, first with an HD300 and now an HD500x, I'm not sure I agree with this. See my recent thread here: http://line6.com/sup...ull-power-mode/.

 

Its a sign of how excellent the podHD modelling is (and mabye that the DT25 amp as a standalone tube amp isn't top of the league) but I prefer the all digital tones I get from this rig.


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#23 ext1jdh

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 01:43 PM

I like them as well. In comparison to my Blackheart Handsome Devil, were I to be recording, I would use the Blackheart with a few mics. The HD500 would be an effects platform, only due to the current limitations of digital modeling of tubes. 

 

It's very good, but it's not perfect. The only thing missing is some of the tube responsiveness. Some but not a lot. It does over 90% of what I need it to do at a gig.

 

That said, i use the HD500 on stage straight to the PA pretty much weekly and it serves very well. Just looking for a little bit more tube realism.


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