Helix as MIDI Controller

[rd2rk]

When I select a preset, it sends a PC#, that's good. It also sends the CC#s and values for all of the other buttons. That's bad.

 

Is there a way to prevent that?

[spikey]

So if you have multiple units, and each with a different midi channel setting, sending CC's won't matter then, right?

[rd2rk]

Spikey - I'm controlling amp sims. I'm using a setlist of blank Helix presets with the buttons configured to toggle the devices in the amp sims' presets using Toggling CCs.

 

Helix automatically sends the PC associated with that Helix preset, which changes the sim's preset, that's good. But all of the Toggling CC values are sent along with the PC#, which turns off (or on) all of the devices in the sim's preset. That's the problem.

 

If I could get the Helix to send ONLY the PC# when I call the Helix preset, then I can use the buttons to send Toggling CCs as needed. You can suppress the sending of the PC#, but NOT the Toggling CCs.

 

I thought that I'd worked this out when I had my HD500x, and even told someone how to do it, but I can't seem to find that (ancient) post. I could also be hallucinating.

 

I normally use an FCB1010 with UNO to do this, but you only get control of 5 CCs in Stomp Mode, and 10 would be better.

 

I've been able to get around this in one sim, TH3, by using non-toggling CCs or Momentary NOTEs. For some reason, Helix doesn't send the momentary signal when changing presets, as opposed to the Toggling CCs. Unfortunately, all of my other sims require CCs, and some of my other sims require Toggling CCs, else you need 2 button presses to make it work.

[DBCrocky]

I think the idea is that it will send the CC#'s for your default values, so your button lights and actual sound correspond.  Then as you press buttons to send additional CC's the lights stay in sync.

 

So can you set your preset up to have the buttons, (and therefor the CC's sent), to put your ampsim into it's default starting state you desire for that patch?

[jbuhajla]

There's currently not a way to turn off CC Toggle data transmission when a preset is selected. 

[d0stenning]

HELIX has great potential as a MIDI controller.  i'm currently working through all the issues of setting up a preset to control QuantiLoop via HELIX.

 

One big area of hassles - as others might have noted - is that - if you use SNAPSHOTS in a patch that will also be sending out MIDI notes ( or CC ) to something - the snapshots can easily by mistake end up memorising different sets of MIDI commands.  Now this may be what you want. Or not. 

 

I've just had to go through each snapshot - and entering the MIDI notes i want on every pedal - again and again - for EACH snapshot. 

 

Also worth bearing in mind for Quantiloop and most likely Group The Loop and Loopy - is that one must use MOMENTARY notes, not lathed. 

 

And i also spend tons of time undoing stomps that were in the wrong mode. set to send NOTES ON. 

 

Currenlty HELIX firmware really needs improving for this sort of thing.  And its doubly problematic - because haveing done this once for a patch - one then has to do it again for every patch. 

 

 

[rd2rk]

DB - I get why this was included as a feature. I do this all the time with my fcb1010_uno board. The difference is that uno allows you to CHOOSE whether to implement it (per preset), and which signal (on/off/no change) to send. Unfortunately, uno only gives you 5 buttons to use like this. Helix has 10. Much better, but annoyingly inflexible, and therefore less than useful to me.

 

As noted previously, I can use NOTEs to control TH3, and I think I can use non-toggling CCs (neither of which is automatically sent on preset load) to control BIAS FX. No LED syncing, but the scribble strips are GREAT.

[DBCrocky]

Hmm, I don't get it rd2rk.  You say you are using Toggling CC's to control an amp sim.  So for example, you select a preset, and it sends a PC to select an ampsim preset.  Then you have a button with a Toggling CC.  So lets say, value 0 turns the amp sim's reverb on, and value 127 turns it off.  Let's say, when you select the amp sim by using a PC without any CC's, it's reverb is off by default.  Then, wouldn't you tap that button until unlit, then save the preset.  Now when you select the preset, it sends a CC value of 0, turning off the reverb, which was already off, and you are ready to go?

[rd2rk]

DB - I know how it works. What I want it to do is NOTHING on preset select, while still allowing me to use toggling CCs ON DEMAND. Helix sends TOGGLING CCs on preset select BY DEFAULT! That's what I DON'T want! Apparently, as jbuhala pointed out, there is no way to turn off that behavior. This differs from the uno equipped fcb1010, which is fully flexible and programmable in that regard (see my previous post). Since your next question will be "why not just use the fcb", because it has less buttons available for this purpose, and it's as big as a small car! It would be nice to be able to consolidate all of my needs with the Helix. Since synced lights are not in that list of needs, my workaround (non-toggling CCs and NOTEs) will suffice for TH3 and BIAS FX, but S-Gear and Amplitude require TOGGLING CCs, so I'm S.O.L. on those.

[DBCrocky]

Hey man, I am just trying to help.  I am not asking you "why not just use the fcb".  I am asking you why sending the default CC's on preset select is an issue.  I know you WANT to not send them, but why not?  Toggling CC's are for switching between one of two values.  What are the CC's doing that sending the default of the two values on preset select is such an issue?  I know a few MIDI tricks, If I understood why you need Toggling CC's but sending the default on preset select was an issue, perhaps I could help with a workaround.

[rd2rk]

No offense intended. I appreciate your desire to help.

 

I don't use amp sims live, that's what the Helix is for, so I'm not carrying around an expensive, finicky, fragile computer. Helix, guitar, TS210, GO! Amp sims I use for playing around with at home. Different sounds. Load a sim, hit a preset. Do I like that? No? Hit another preset. Do I feel creative yet?

 

"If I understood why you need Toggling CC's but sending the default on preset select was an issue, perhaps I could help with a workaround."

 

I have several amp sims, acquired over more than ten years. THOUSANDS of presets. Every amp sim implements MIDI differently. Certain sims, like Amplitube and S-Gear, ONLY work with toggling CCs - and implement them differently to boot! Because the Helix insists on sending toggling CCs on preset load, it would require configuring each and every sim preset to a Helix preset, this on, that off, defeats my purpose - FREEDOM! SPONTANEITY!

 

I TELL THE ROBOT WHAT TO DO! For the robot to do whatever it wants is a violation of Asimov's Second Law! :angry:

 

The FCB/UNO takes no such liberties. As a dedicated MIDI controller, it allows for a degree of programming power that the Helix, as a MODELER first and a CONTROLLER second (or third or fourth after audio interface and mixer) is not designed for. If the FCB/UNO only allowed for 10 stomp type pedals (and had decent expression pedals with toe buttons, and had scribble strips, and wasn't so butt-ugly....) it would be perfect! I looked into the VooDooLabs Ground Control, doesn't even do toggling, no editor. The Macmillan SoftStep, way overkill for my purpose.

 

So for the time being - until Xavier, creator of UNO, finishes his rumored upgrade/redesign/replacement of UNO - or Line6 provides a DON'T SEND option for the Helix (HA!) -  I'll use the Helix for the sims that don't require toggling CCs, and use the FCB/UNO for the rest. If I ever come up with lists of "GoTo" presets in Amplitube or S-Gear, I can always set up a Helix bank specifically for them, with syncing lights and specifically labelled scribble strips and all the bells and whistles! But for now, I JUST WANNA ROCK!

[DBCrocky]

The difference between Toggling CC message and A Momentary CC message has nothing to do with the message itself, A MIDI CC message is a MIDI CC message.  The only data in a MIDI CC message are

1) MIDI Channel,

2) CC Number, and

3) CC Value.

The only difference is that for momentary, you send the same exact message every time you hit the button, and for toggling there are two messages, with the same Channel and Number, but different Values.  The first time you hit the button, one of the messages is sent, the second time you hit the button, the other message is sent, and it keeps alternating.

 

So, perhaps you can tell me exactly what you mean by "Certain sims, like Amplitube and S-Gear, ONLY work with toggling CCs".  The need for a toggling CC implies that the sim has two states that are controlled by that CC. As an example: CC #20 might be Reverb On (Value 0) and Reverb Off (Value 127), or CC #21 might be Clean Channel (Value 0) and Drive Channel (Value 64).  Yet it seems you are saying you need a toggling CC to activate presets, which is why I am confused.

 

Let's pick Amplitube.  First, lets get our terminology straight.  You use a PC message to load a Sim.  Then you use a CC message to load a Preset within that Sim.  Can you tell me exactly what CC Number(s) messages are used to load presets, and what the CC Value means?

 

Meanwhile I am going to see if I can research Amplitube's CC Specification to see what is going on.

[DBCrocky]

Ok, well, no luck pulling up a Amplitube MIDI spec.  It seems they don't make their user manual available until you buy the product.  Not very smart on this company's part.  I did find this:

 

http://cgi.ikmultimedia.com/ikforum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12936

 

Let's see if I can have more luck with S-Gear.

[DBCrocky]

Well I found this, which appear to be you, discussing changing presets via PC commands and possibly using Bank MSB and LSB CC messages to change banks and access more than 128 presets: https://www.scuffhamamps.com/forum/6-general-discussion/7966-midi-control

 

I looked at the S-Gear Manual here: https://www.scuffhamamps.com/images/documents/sgear_usermanual.pdf

 

It seems it says you use PC messages to send presets, and you use CC messages to control amp parameters, like Volume, Tone, or Delay Time.  This is typically how PC and CC messages are used.

 

So again, perhaps you explain to me exactly what CC messages you need to send to change presets, and why a toggling CC is needed?

[rd2rk]

First, let's get my goal straight. DEVICE SENDS NOTHING BUT A PC ON LOAD!

 

The rest of this is academic, but interesting nonetheless.

 

"I looked at the S-Gear Manual here: https://www.scuffham..._usermanual.pdf

It seems it says you use PC messages to send presets, and you use CC messages to control amp parameters, like Volume, Tone, or Delay Time.  This is typically how PC and CC messages are used.

 

"So again, perhaps you explain to me exactly what CC messages you need to send to change presets, and why a toggling CC is needed?"

 

From the S-Gear manual:

 

Switch Controllers are used to apply on/off status to an S-Gear parameter.  There are two ways in
which a typical foot controller will send switch messages, some are ‘latching’ where the device sends
a value of 00 = off and 127 = on.  Others are ‘momentary’, where the foot control sends value 127
whilst the pedal is depressed and then 00 when the pedal is released.  The two S-Gear switch modes
allow you to handle both types of message.

 

-------------------------

 

What that means is that, if when I load a preset, I also send a 000 or 127 CC value, depending on the saved status of the function assigned to that CC, it'll toggle ON (if saved OFF), OFF (if saved ON), or do nothing if I send OFF or ON to a function that's already saved in the corresponding state. This is how we use configuration of the controller's messages to sync the LEDs. But suppose I don't CARE about the LED sync, I just want the preset to load the way it's saved, but turn things ON/OFF afterwards? Using S-Gear's MOMENTARY setting combined with a NON-TOGGLING CC on the controller, I get what I want because the controller (in this case the Helix) DOESN'T send NON-TOGGLING CCs on preset load! Whereas, if I use toggling, I have to configure each preset because the Helix SENDS toggling CCs on preset load.

 

See? It's the difference between messing with every preset to match up states to get synced LEDs (which I don't care about), or just plug and play!

 

One of the differences between S-Gear and Amplitube is that you can't choose momentary or toggling mode for global control purposes. You can configure presets to work like that, but only by messing with EACH preset. And yeah, good luck finding any info on the Amplitube MIDI implementation. My experience with their support folks is that they don't know either.

 

Now I have to go to work. Continue later?

[DBCrocky]

First, let's get my goal straight. DEVICE SENDS NOTHING BUT A PC ON LOAD!

 

Well, if that is your goal, all I can tell you is to put your idea into ideascape and cross your fingers (but don't hold your breath).

 

However, if your goal is to make your rig respond the way you want to, there are other options.

 

1) First, the idea for you would be a device with a midi in and a midi out, you would put in between your Helix and your AmpSim computer.  It would pass MIDI messages through, but if it receives a PC message, it would filter all CC messages for 1 second (or whatever short interval you desired).  Unfortunately, I don't know of such a device :(

 

2) So, academically, you COULD re-program each of your Helix patches so the defaults match your AmpSim's default.  This WOULD work, but I understand, you don't want to spend the time doing it.

 

3) Another option would be to use a MIDI Solutions Event Processor in between the Helix and AmpSim computer.  The Event Processor could be programmed to turn Note messages into CC messages, with the note number mapping to the CC number and the velocity mapping to the CC value.  Then you could reprogram your CC Toggles to be Note messages with the Latching feature turned on.  Notes don't get transmitted by Helix on PC change, so bingo!  But of course, this has the same drawback as above, time spent reprogramming.

 

4) Contact MIDI Solutions (http://www.midisolutions.com/prodcst.htm)  I found John Fast to be quite responsive.  Describe your problem to him.  He might be able to modify the Event Processor with an option where a PC command would trigger a CC filter for a short amount of time.

 

5) Do a search for software.  I typically don't use computers in my MIDI rigs, so I am not as familiar, but there are software programs out there that will do filtering and remapping and such.  Their may be something out there that will do what you want.

 

6) Look for another midi controller, RJM and LiquidFoot controllers are highly configurable and may be able to do exactly what you are looking for.

[rd2rk]

1) If such a device existed, it might also solve the problem of doing bank/preset selection from an external device (my previous post that you referenced). Unfortunately......:-(

 

2) Yes, not worth the time/effort

 

3) I didn't know that you could control the LEDs using the latching function of NOTEs. Thanks for that! I also didn't know about the MIDI Solutions Event Processor. Thanks for that, too! Though the problem doesn't really justify the expense, knowing that a hardware device like that exists could come in handy in the future. I had looked into BOME, but the effort/investment/return ratio didn't add up. With your tip about the NOTE latching, I tried using the Filters in Cantabile to accomplish the transposition from NOTE to CC, but no luck. I'll try the Cantabile User Group on that, I could just be missing a trick.

 

4,5,6) Again, not worth the time/effort/expense

 

I'll post back if I get it working in Cantabile.

[DBCrocky]

FWIW, From John Fast of MIDI Solutions:

 

Hi Dave,

 

Thank you for your inquiry.

 

I've also received requests from a few other customers to add some timer functions to the Event Processor, it's difficult to add as a one-off custom modification but I'd eventually like to make them permanent addition to the product, unfortunately I'm currently working on some other projects and may not be able to complete it for a while.

 

However I thought a little more about this and it occurred to me that the footcontroller is likely sending exactly the same number of CC messages after each PC message, so if the Event Processor could count down a specific number of CC messages before allowing them to pass that might be another way to resolve the problem, and the Event Processor offers a sequence function which can do just this. Attached is a file containing the settings to program the Event Processor to filter exactly four CC messages after every PC message it receives. If you examine the settings you'll see that the sequence definitions contain six steps, this is because one step is required to allow the PC message to reset the sequence, four steps are for filtering CC messages, and the final step is the repeated step to allow all future CC messages to pass. You can modify the settings to count down any number of steps by right-clicking on settings #8 and #9.

 

Best regards,
John Fast, MIDI Solutions Inc.
www.midisolutions.com

 

 

F0 00 00 50 28 00 F7
{ Clear All Settings - allow all MIDI events not specified below to pass through unchanged }

F0 00 00 50 28 21 00 00 02 00 7F 01 03 00 7F F7
B0 00 00
{ Setting #1: Filter all Control Change events on all MIDI channels. Continue to process settings  (right-click to edit) }

F0 00 00 50 28 24 07 09 01 06 06 00 02 00 7F F7
C0 00
{ Setting #8: When Program Change events on all MIDI channels are received, jump to step #6 of the sequence beginning at setting #10, with 1 event per step, containing a total of 6 steps. Continue to process settings  (right-click to edit) }

F0 00 00 50 28 24 08 09 01 06 7C 00 02 00 7F 01 03 00 7F F7
B0 00 00
{ Setting #9: When Control Change events on all MIDI channels are received, jump to the previous step of the sequence beginning at setting #10, with 1 event per step, containing a total of 6 steps. When the first step of the sequence is reached, remain at the first step. Continue to process settings  (right-click to edit) }

F0 00 00 50 28 45 09 02 02 00 7F 03 03 00 7F F7
B0 00 00
{ Setting #10: Sequence Event: Control Change with the Control Change number obtained from the incoming X value and scaled to the outgoing range 0 - 127, and with the value obtained from the incoming Y value and scaled to the outgoing range 0 - 127, on all MIDI channels. Continue to process settings  (right-click to edit) }
 

[rd2rk]

Thanks again DB. Still more of an investment than I'd care to make, but nice to know. I quoted your post over to another thread where someone was wanting to control the Helix from Ableton. I'd explained the sequence of commands required to switch Banks and Programs, and noted that when I tried it with the fcb1010 there appeared to be a timing problem. Hopefully it will be of help to him - assuming that he encountered the same problem with Ableton, he never posted back whether he got it working or not.