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Considering A Delve Into The World Of Dreamstage

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#1 SiWatts69

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 05:25 AM

Hi all.

 

Looking for some guidance from the venerable experts, but I'll apologise up front for what might become a rather long post with lots of questions... so sorry :-)

 

I play in a 7-piece Northern Soul band. We're not out every week, gigging about twice a month or so.

 

Lineup is;

Lead vox (male)

Lead vox (female)

Guitar

Bass

Drums

Keys

Sax

 

Additionally, four of us do backing vox.

 

We currentl play through a Yamaha powered analogue mixer and passive peavey 15" subs with whafedale 15" + horn tops. In sequence we run a 2x 31 band eq with feedback detection (not elimination though) and inline with two aux monitor sens e run a behringer feedback destroyer. For smaller gigs where we're not doing a full rig up, we just run keys, sax and vox through foh. The existing system is ok for small venues but begins to struggle once we hit a 150+ venue. At this point we have major feedback issues, we're bouncing off the limiters on the desk and, in my opinion, our sound is lacking. Everyone who has watched us has complimented the performance, but never the sound. The existing gear is about 15 years old and when purchased was far from top of the range.

 

As a result, I've been looking around at revised pa equipment with a view to trying to fulfil more of our needs across a wider variety of venues and gear which would help us justify a rellatively high gig fee for the wedding/corporate do's, after all, poeple don't expect you to turn out with clapped out tatty old gear if you're charging top dollar for the gig.

 

For the biggest gigs we'd likely still wet hire with a sound guy but I'm looking for a rig that is scalable enough and flexible enough to handle everything from a 50 capacity pub up to a 250-300 capacity wedding/corporate plus the ability to work a marquee.

 

I'll be honest and state that Line6 wasn't initially on my radar. My only experience with Line6 being my son's small guitar combo.

 

my plan is to buy a powered four box system, 2 subs + 2 tops, plus a mixer (current mixer is powered so not a perfect match to use with powered speakers.

 

Initially, I whittled a shortlist down to QSC K12+KSub, Yamaha DSR115+DSR118W or JBL PRX615+PRX618S-XLF and then set out to audition them.

 

Visited a dealer who had a pair of K12's which I must say really took me by surprise. It was here that the first mention of the M20D appeared, the store being quite complimentary of it, though the speakers weren't mentioned. Looking at it, I was disappointed with the number of XLR inputs... ruled it out initially because it has 2 less than we currently need.

 

Found myself a week later in a different dealer auditioning the QSC tops+subs against Yamaha tops+subs. With recorded music, the QSC were head and shoulder above the Yamaha's but as soon as we switched to a direct L+R desk output mix of the band, the QSC's fell away and Yamaha's burst into full song. So the QSC were ejected from my shortlist.

 

My next trip out was to a dealer who stocks Yamaha and Logic System. For the non UK readers, Logic System (LS) are  hand manufactured in the UK and their speakers are widely regarded as some of the best you can get... we've played through hired rigs and they have all been (with one exception) LS. Not cheap though (approx 2x the price of Yamaha) so I was intrigued to see of I could discern the difference in a blind audition, once again with recorded music vs the same desk out recodings. Recorded, the LS were simply staggering, but with the desk mix, the Yamaha got a good deal closer, but still lacked clarity. Whether the difference was worth double the price, not sure.

 

So on to the Line6 aspects...

 

This latest dealer also mentioned the M20D. He's used one with his band and was extremely complimentary of it's ease of use/setup etc. Upon mentioning our lineup and xlr input requirements, he stressed re-assessing how we connect everything up. So, I've been doing some in-depth research and it does appear that the M20D is viable. I'm also looking at A&H QU-16 and PreSonus 16-4-2

 

My research into the desk has also opened up considering the L3 speakers too, though I've not yet been able to find anywhere locally where I can hear them in action.

 

The whole Line6Link and simplicity is verry appealing.

 

So here's me questions...

 

The 1/4" jack inputs on the M20D. Are they balanced TRS or unbalanced TS? This question detrmines whether the M20D is viable. Keys, sax radio mic and bass can go in on jacks if they're balanced.[edit]oops, found the answer now... balanced trs. But the apparent lack of full sound processing options/effects on these channels, whilst not a game changer, does have a negative impact.[/edit]

 

How durable is the M20D? Is the Line6 case for it a wise investment, or would I be better looking for a rigid flightcase for it? 

 

Does the M20D fully remove the need for our inline EQ and feedback destroyer?

 

What is the build quality like on the L3 speakers? Do they compare well to other powered speakers at the same sort of price point?

 

Would it be advisable to purchase L3t tops rather than L3m's to have access to the mixers for failsafe if the desk happens to prove unreliable at any time? Or is that just buying features we don't really need? I must admit that having seen the suggestion raised on this forum, being able to rig all our mics direct into the L3t for smaller gigs without the stress of a full desk wireup seems appealing but even without the drums, guitar and bass through FOH, we sill need 8 inputs, 6 of which are mics.

 

The other subs I'm considering are all 18" bass reflex design. How does the twin 12" sub compare in larger venues?

 

Realistically, what size of venue would a pair of L3 tops and subs ( ie 2x tops + 2x subs) be capable of filling without bouncing off limiters etc? Would it struggle in a 50' x 25' marguee for example, or in a 300 capacity room?

 

How "out of the box" are the preset eq options for most inputs on the M20d? It's not me who does our sound, the guy who does it is pretty old school but gets easily stressed. The more ready to roll it is, the better as it means he can focus back on what's important and not be bogged down chasing the pesky feedback round whilst trying to keep the sound good.

 

Apologies for rambling on, but this is potentially a very big investment and I don't want to spend only to find that I've papered over cracks just for the sake of simplicity. Simplicity is great, but if it is at the expense of control, sound quality and flexibility then I'd sooner have a little less simplicity in exchange for a better quality sound in the larger venues we play. 

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide :-)


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#2 litesnsirens

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 08:41 AM

The easiest way to answer all your questions would be to simply say "DO IT !!!" If you read enough through this forum, you will see that there have been others who have asked these types of questions prior to purchase, made the purchase and then been blown away by the sound.  We played one of our regular venues Friday night, except that it had moved to a much bigger location down the street from where it was.  I still was only able to bring the mains up to -10db or it would be too loud.  A musician friend in the audience said the level was perfect, loud enough to be punchy but not painful.  For the record I'm using what you are thinking of purchasing, 2 X L3t, 2 X L3s and M20d.  We used to have vairous L3 boxes for monitors as well but have just switched over to in ear monitors.  If we had done that in the first place we could have saved money.  We had 3 L2t at $900 each and 1 L3t at $1039 for monitors which is $3739.  Two Sennheiser in ear systems with two receivers each is $2400 plus another $100 each for Shure SE215 earphones (which work great at that price point).  So it's $2800 to go in ear for a 4 piece band, almost $1000 cheaper than the 4 boxes we had.  In your case if you're considering it.  It would be $455 for extra receivers and $100 for the earphones for each extra member.

 

I know you need more than this so I will endeavour to cover off most of your concerns in more detail.  

 

As far as inputs 13,14,15,16 being balanced, I can't seem to find it anywhere in any of the specs.  My guess is "yes" just based on the fact that this is the quietest PA I've ever used and that may have something to do with it.  But if they aren't the next question would be "Why does it matter?" based on the fact that this is the quietest PA system I have ever used.  I honestly think that if they turned out not to be balanced and you eliminated the M20d as a result you would be doing yourself a big disservice.

 

As far as the Line 6 case for the M20d, I don't have one, it looks pretty decent and if you were planning on babying it a little it should work fine.  I happened to own a Presonus 16.0.2 and had bought a flight case for it.  Turns out the M20 fits perfectly into that case so that's what I use.  If you're throwing the M20d in a truck with the rest of the gear I would go for something a tougher case, but it's a pretty small footprint so it'll fit on the front seat floor of your car if you go with the softer case.

 

You won't need the inline EQ's any more.  I would recommend ringing out the room and using the FBS built into the M20d.  Setup, make sure all the mics are live, turn the overall levels up higher than you will use them intentionally creating feedback, then let the M20d find and eliminate 5 or 6 frequencies.  That should be enough, then turn down to playing levels and you won't have to worry about feedback.

 

The L3 series speakers are solid, as well built as any speakers on the market.  Still I bought the Line 6 cases for all of them as I want to keep them looking new.

 

I always recommend the L3t over the L3m but in your case it wouldn't be enough channels, as it would only give you 4 mic channels and you need 6.  So you would need to bring the M20d to the smaller gigs as well.  This isn't such a big hassle though since the system is so easy to hook up and if you have all your settings saved in the m20d it probably balances out in the end anyway time-wise. Still the price difference to have the t versions is so minimal that it just makes sense.  You never know what you might use it for down the road.

 

The L3s subs are simply amazing, and again, designed to work with this system, calibrated with this system, I can honestly say if you're buying this system it makes no sense at all to sue different subs unless you already own subs and want to just use what you have.  Even then I would suggest for ease of use, setup and best possible sound sell the subs you have and get the L3s.  It's a huge difference.

 

As far as room size I think I covered that in my opening paragraph, but this system will cover everything you have asked about in spades and with room to spare.  I've done 300 person banquet halls with this system and had to turn it down so people could comfortable sit in the room.  I'm starting to think the only way I'm gonna get to open this system up and get it up to 0db on the master fader is to do a large outdoor gig. 

 

And finally "out of the box", this system is so "out of the box" you could "out of the box" your sound man out of a job.  Seriously, if he manages to keep his job this system is going to make him look like a genius.  But really, for any of my bands, I set it up myself and then play the gig.  Done!!

Now with the in ears, we can do a silent monitor sound check on stage (mains at zero) record it and then play it back while I tweak the monitor mix. Then I turn up the mains for a minute or two, go out front ... make sure the levels are all good and that's it.

 

Our band is all direct so this works perfect.  In your situation where you have live amp and instrument sounds as well as what's coming FOH it will be a little different.  But you could just have the band play without you and listen to the difference and make some minor adjustments.


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#3 scotterp

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 09:06 AM

I don't have Line 6 speakers (yet - but hopefully soon) but I can comment on the M20D... It's fantastic! Like Litesnsirens, I'm responsible for the sound for our band and this thing has been a godsend. Once you have it dialed in, and that will take some time to learn things, setup becomes a breeze. Had a very short gig yesterday at 6:30AM (yes, AM) at the Phoenix Zoo for a charity event. No sound check, just our singer walking around out front during the first song giving me signals for the overall volume level. He said it sounded fantastic out front. And he emphasized fantastic. It was our first outdoor gig with it and lots of people came up afterwards to complement how great we sounded. This is common place now every time we play, people comment on how great and clear our sound is - that you can hear each and every instrument so clearly.

 

As Litesnsirens said... "DO IT!" You won't regret it.


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#4 SiWatts69

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 10:26 AM

Many many thanks litesnsirens for a pretty comprehensive reply.

 

After I posted, I found the answer to the balanced question... they are balanced. I've also continued researching. 

 

Sadly, there is a bigger difference in price between the t's and m's here in the uk... approx $700 so the decision needs to be a little more considered. if it were a lot closer, i think it would be more of a no brainer. 


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#5 SiWatts69

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 10:28 AM

Thanks scotterp.


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#6 jaminjimlp

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 11:34 AM

Oh yeah I took the plunge speakers and mixer at the same time will never look back..... Has so totally improve the sound of our band and love to have the recording tracks after practices and gigs. And yes I'm in agreement with the other fellows just do it you won't be sorry.
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May you be blessed and our Lord Jesus keep you!!!


#7 litesnsirens

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 12:02 PM

Wow, I can't believe there's that much difference between the t and the m in the UK. Are you sure it's not a mistake. It's roughly & 100 here in Canada and about the same in the US. So $700 is a crazy discrepancy.
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#8 linesixy

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 01:37 PM

From what I've seen advertised, there's a £100 difference per speaker (approx. $160)


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#9 RonMarton

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:01 PM

...The 1/4" jack inputs on the M20D. Are they balanced TRS or unbalanced TS?...

 

I reckon the exact technology behind the breathtaking ease and DI box-eliminating transparency (that we've seen universally applauded when anyone's discussed the M20d's inputs) is something of a Line 6 "trade secret".

 

The jacks possess both "tip" and "ring" contacts. As to the details of the technology behind them, do we really care ?

 

...How durable is the M20D? Is the Line6 case for it a wise investment, or would I be better looking for a rigid flight case for it?... 

 

For me, that depends on whether we're only handling it ourselves, or may need to entrust it to the "handle with care" gorillas.

 

If it's the former, the Line 6 case should be just fine for many years. 

 

The latter, however, means investment along the lines of the rugged options discussed here http://line6.com/sup...e-for-the-m20d/ would be a VERY wise move, IMHO.

 

...Does the M20D fully remove the need for our inline EQ and feedback destroyer?...

 

I'd hesitate to say "fully remove" as the M20d's automated systems may not be able to "wring out" (or "ring" out) the "last drop" of gain before feedback to the same extent as a talented engineer operating an outboard feedback destroyer and a rack of third-octave graphic equalisers.

 

However, putting bulky box considerations aside, it's been my experience that the engineer in question will require between one to four hours to achieve a result that's only a dB or so better than the result the M20d's automation achieves in less than five minutes

 

...What is the build quality like on the L3 speakers? Do they compare well to other powered speakers at the same sort of price point?...

 

I do NOT believe for one moment that StageSource speakers "compare well" in this regard.

 

To my mind, they absolutely leave many others for dead. (The StageSource units are among the most rugged I've ever encountered.)

 

...Would it be advisable to purchase L3t tops rather than L3m's to have access to the mixers for failsafe if the desk happens to prove unreliable at any time? Or is that just buying features we don't really need?...

 

OK, lets consider first that we're about to spend four figures on our total system revamp. In that light, the "t" versions seem to add a VERY low percentage to our total investment.

 

Now, leaving aside the backup and "modular" flexibility that those few hundred extra pounds buy, how about value and "marketability" when the prospect of re-sale eventually (and inevitably) arises ?

 

...The other subs I'm considering are all 18" bass reflex design. How does the twin 12" sub compare in larger venues?...

 

In some venues those "twin 12" subs may indeed be a bit better, in others far worse, ...but nowhere will they be instantly reconfigurable via Line 6 Link, as litesnsirens has so clearly set out.

 

Is it just me, or does it make NO sense whatever to have paid for this brilliantly intuitive technology only to have it NOT available to address our crucially vital bottom octave ?

 

...Realistically, what size of venue would a pair of L3 tops and subs ( ie 2x tops + 2x subs) be capable of filling without bouncing off limiters etc? Would it struggle in a 50' x 25' marquee for example, or in a 300 capacity room?...

 

No ...and no. (Three thousand capacity arena, ...maybe...)

 

...How "out of the box" are the preset eq options for most inputs on the M20d? It's not me who does our sound, the guy who does it is pretty old school but gets easily stressed...

 

Don't we all ?  :wacko:

 

...And finally "out of the box", this system is so "out of the box" you could "out of the box" your sound man out of a job.  Seriously, if he manages to keep his job this system is going to make him look like a genius.  But really, for any of my bands, I set it up myself and then play the gig.  Done!!...

 

What he said !

 

Enjoy...  :)


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#10 ArneLine6

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:55 PM

About the need for external eq's:

A system with an M20d and StageSource speakers has the 12 feedback suppression filters for every input and manually adjustable 6 band parametric eq's AND 31 band eq's for every output. An external 31 band EQ seems redundant.
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#11 SiWatts69

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Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:05 PM

From what I've seen advertised, there's a £100 difference per speaker (approx. $160)

My apologies, I appear to have clipped the wrong key... It was my intention to say $400, NOT $700.

 

Normal UK retail for t's appears to be £849, and for the m's £749 however the m's are at £699 in one retail outlet. So that's a difference of £300 on 2 units, ie approx. $480

 

Thanks to everyone for your input. I shall be making a trip out to find somewhere to audition the system.


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#12 nickinfrance

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 12:47 AM

My apologies, I appear to have clipped the wrong key... It was my intention to say $400, NOT $700.

Normal UK retail for t's appears to be £849, and for the m's £749 however the m's are at £699 in one retail outlet. So that's a difference of £300 on 2 units, ie approx. $480

Thanks to everyone for your input. I shall be making a trip out to find somewhere to audition the system.

SiWatts, nothing really over and above what the good people above have said already but I am in the UK and went through the exercise that you are currently going through a short while ago. I eventually listened to the stagescape system at A well know store in the reading area beginning with A...!

I must admit listening to pa's in cramped pro audio shop demo rooms is always tricky to get a real feel for the sound. I went ahead with the whole stagescape system and I am so pleased that I did. The setup is an absolute dream but above all for me it's the quality of the sound. Truly I have never heard anything that comes close.

I regularly do gigs with a folk band. From a sound point of view it is quite challenging because they always have a following of floor singers and people who get up on the night and play different instruments (some of which I've never even heard of before!). I have to be really quick at plugging in and setting up a new channel on the fly. The M20d does this in its stride. It's summed up I reckon by one comment from the wife of one of the singers who came up to me at the end of the night and said..."I've been following xxxxx around for the last 30 years from gig to gig. This is the first time I've thought he can really sing, he sounded amazing!!"

Just one other thought, I'm not sure where you are based but if you can make it to London to the PLASA show at the Excel Center then I believe Line 6 are demoing the whole system there.
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#13 SiWatts69

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:57 AM

Just one other thought, I'm not sure where you are based but if you can make it to London to the PLASA show at the Excel Center then I believe Line 6 are demoing the whole system there.

 

Yes, thanks Nick, I spotted the PLASA show attendance and did think about making the trip down (I'm near Sheffield) but at such short notice it's not really going to occur. Additionally, PLASA claims to be trade only so I'm not sure whether having made the trip down whether I'd get my foot through the door. Thanks anyway.

 

From what I'm hearing feedback wise, it seems I'm unlikely to be disappointed with a dreamstage system, so now to justify it to the rest of the band (even though it'll be me buying it!). I'll likely take a spin up to G***4M**** near York with our guitarist as he's the one who'll be responsible for setup (I'm busy putting the light rig up) to see whether he gets on with the GUI. Watch this space... I'll let you know whether we go for it and what the outcome is when we first take it out for a spin.

 

Shame really that I didn't find and take a serious look at this system a few weeks ago as we're playing this weekend in a room at the upper end of the sizes we play and I just know our existing system is going to struggle :-(


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#14 RonMarton

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:22 AM

Just FYI Folks...

 

Mentioning the likes of Andertons, Gear4Music or any other outlet or manufacturer is fine in these forums.

 

It's only the obvious promotion of, or disrespect to, them that will have offenders expelled. 


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#15 Digital-sound

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:59 AM

Yes there is lots that has been noted in the "Can the DreamStage system really replace my "old school" system?".

I moved to the M20D and 2 L3t's, 2 L3s's, and 2 L2m (for monitors). I removed my dbx driverack PA+ that we used to eliminate feedback, but more to EQ the front end. Our sound was good, but now it is a bit better, and MUCH easier to achieve. I replaced 2 18" LS801P's and 2 15" EF500P's. A great and powerful set up by Yorkville. The DreamStage system is lighter, and overall better even with little less power. It has the power we need. I would say it would do a 300 person venue comfortably. But if not, there is no easier system to add to. Very modular. More subs and mains if you desire are added with just a few cables.

I really had my doubts if you read the other forum, but I am so pleased and satisfied with my new system! You will not regret the sound, and simplicity of the set up.
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#16 SiWatts69

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:32 AM

Just thought I'd follow up...

 

Been to gear4music and demo'd the L3s+L3t with M20d. Sound tested against the QSC K12/KSub rig. Took our guitarist with me (as he'll be the one mixing).

 

Impressions... I took the plunge and ordered. It blows the QSC's out of the water. Indeed, both of us were pretty staggered.

 

So, in a couple of weeks time, I'll go back up and collect the whole rig. Need to wait the couple of weeks as I'm off on holiday in a couple of days time and G4M need to get bags, covers and cases for the rig for me, so makes sense to collect all in one go.

 

Here's what we went for in the end;

 

M20d + case

2 of L3s + covers

2 of L3m + bags

2 of L2m + bags (for monitors)


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#17 Digital-sound

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 06:44 PM

Great choice SiWatts69.  I have the same set up but went with the L3t's due to the fact that LAMusic here in canada was offering them both for the same price ($1039 each).  So it was a no brainer.  Then I had my local store, L&M, match the price.  They did with no problem and didn't even consider shipping!  They almost seemed offended that the store could offer them for that price as Yorkville is L&M, and Yorkville is the Canadian distributor!  Strange how it works.

 

I do not know what the magic is in these speakers, but they are very good.  I got to try the Yorkville Paraline system after ordering the Line 6 system.  It was a loaner while I waited.  The Line 6, to me, was much better than the paraline, and much less cost too!  I will say again, that maybe the paraline could be set up to sound as good or better, but, as a musician doing sound from the stage, I don't want to put anymore time into setting up sound than I absolutely must.  Line 6 has really delivered in that department.  And the sound is outstanding!


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#18 darrenhowell

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 10:50 PM

I too took the plunge last night and ordered the M20D and will be looking to get the speakers in the not to distant future. All of the information on this forum has been a great help in making the decision.


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#19 SiWatts69

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:56 PM

I too took the plunge last night and ordered the M20D and will be looking to get the speakers in the not to distant future. All of the information on this forum has been a great help in making the decision.

 

Gotta say, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Of all the research I did, JBL, QSC, Yamaha were all researched, and, not one of them did I find all glowing reports for. Line6 on the other hand... I'm quite blown away. I have found nothing but positive comments.

 

All that, for a company which is a relative infant in the PA scene!!!

 

At the demo we did (recordings of our actual band taken direct from the current desk, the whole system really rocked. I was anticipating a small difference in sound over the QSC's but the iompact was immediate AND very distinguishable.

 

Can't wait to give it a go for real now... Just bought the iPad to do remote control for it too!


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#20 nickinfrance

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Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:04 AM

Good stuff!  You are going to have a serious amount of power there!  I'll have to come up and see the band.


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