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#1 alsithi

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:05 AM

Now there are a number of autotune systems available for guitar, including software versions, is there ANY possibility that this kind of system can be written into the JTV programming?


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#2 clay-man

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:35 AM

What do you mean? If you want an Autotune guitar, then you're probably gonna need to buy an autotune guitar. It's not like the Variax is a computer you can install software that you like on it. It's a product, and they'll obviously put the software/firmware that goes with the guitar, on the guitar.

 

While Autotune's intonation and instant retune thing is kind of cool, I think it makes for a lazy guitarist. There's something that makes me want to have a guitar on a proper tuning than let a computer digitally keep it in the correct tuning. Alt tunings are fine, but constantly pressing a button to digitally retune your guitar is just lazy.

 

That's just me. 

 

I also think the Variax has the best modeling out on the market.


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#3 tomb68

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:49 AM

I think it is a legitimate question. If the variax can transpose on the fly already why not have it intonate as well? It seems like one of the biggest markets for this technology is session guitarist or pit musicians and time is money for both of those groups. If are playing guitar in a live situation (theatre for instance), a guitar that can digitally correct it's pitch on demand is a huge asset, plus the audience isn't impressed that you can tune your own guitar, they came to see a show. 


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#4 alsithi

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:50 AM

I don't see any difference between pressing a button to tune the guitar either to concert pitch or an alt tuning. All I am asking is whether it is a possibility that Line6 could provide this facility.

 

I would rather have my guitar in tune at all times regardless of the method of achieving this. Both my 300 and 69 are less reliable than previous guitars in this regard. My last gigging guitar was an Ibanez Saber and both that and even my lowly Marlin Sidewinder almost never went out of tune during sets.


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#5 phil_m

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:43 AM

I personally would be kind of surprised to see Line 6 go down that road. It's probably feasible, but right now Line 6 isn't recognizing the absolute pitch with its algorithms. It's shifting based on relative pitch. So it would mean re-writing that whole bit. Adding it would undoubtedly in latency a little bit, and it seems that Line 6 wouldn't want to sacrifice feel for this feature. Perhaps it's something they'll do in the future with faster processors, but I'd not hold my breath for it now.


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#6 GearFarm

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:45 AM

I'd like to see it.

I played the Peavey AT and the auto tune function worked pretty good.

Its not a question of being lazy and not knowing how to tune your guitar, its that your guitar is in tune all over the neck...any chord in any position sounds good.

The Variax is like a computer and hopefully if they see enough demand they could impliment the auto tune function in a firmware update.


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#7 rmaginnis

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:21 AM

I have to agree that keeping your guitar precisely in tune is very important.With all due respect for me there's something about the mechanics of an instrument that helps to bring me closer to it.Like tuning it manually, cleaning, intonation etc.

But it would be great option.


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#8 ozbadman

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:41 AM

Now there are a number of autotune systems available for guitar, including software versions, is there ANY possibility that this kind of system can be written into the JTV programming?

 

Can you not already achieve this with a midi device? I would think a GK-3 and a GR-55 might be able to do this, or if you're into software the fishman triple play might do this also.


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#9 clay-man

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:09 PM

I personally would be kind of surprised to see Line 6 go down that road. It's probably feasible, but right now Line 6 isn't recognizing the absolute pitch with its algorithms. It's shifting based on relative pitch. So it would mean re-writing that whole bit. Adding it would undoubtedly in latency a little bit, and it seems that Line 6 wouldn't want to sacrifice feel for this feature. Perhaps it's something they'll do in the future with faster processors, but I'd not hold my breath for it now.

 

I think they should maybe rewrite their pitch shifter function a bit. I'm not familiar with Variax HD, but if it's still doing warble with hammer-ons and pull-offs, then I think they need to fix that.

 

That's something I will argue that Variax does need improvement on.

I know latency is an issue, but they need to look into it a bit more and try to find fixes for that stuff.

 

 

I don't see any difference between pressing a button to tune the guitar either to concert pitch or an alt tuning. All I am asking is whether it is a possibility that Line6 could provide this facility.

 

The alt tuning on a Variax requires you to stay in tune physically, while the autotune function doesn't care if you're in tune at all and just needs the press of a button.

It IS cool, but it's also lazy, and I don't think it's a healthy habit either. Your tension will be off if you rely on that all the time.

 

Maybe it's just me, but that's the breaking point where the whole traditionalist technophobia starts coming in. I love technology, but that's just too lazy. Even the Gibson Robot tuners would be better than that, because it's actually tuning it back physically.


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#10 TheRealZap

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 06:17 AM

It would be great if they pulled this off... someone needs to throw this on idea scale... i don't think it's likely... but ideascale is where you need to post it if you want it to get any traction.


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#11 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:20 PM

I would be afraid that slight pitch shifting to retune the out of tune strings would create problems rather than solve them.  This is done by resampling and it probably doesn't have infinite resolution.


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#12 alsithi

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:54 PM

It would be great if they pulled this off... someone needs to throw this on idea scale... i don't think it's likely... but ideascale is where you need to post it if you want it to get any traction.

I've submitted an idea as you suggested- well if you dont ask, you don't get!


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#13 alsithi

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:46 PM

I find it odd that my ideascale post has attracted negative votes. Who in their right mind would OBJECT to having a guitar with the ability to tune itself?


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#14 clay-man

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:12 PM

I would be afraid that slight pitch shifting to retune the out of tune strings would create problems rather than solve them.  This is done by resampling and it probably doesn't have infinite resolution.

 

pitch shifting is always done by some sort of resampling and resetting the time at a set frequency, and that set frequency is what causes latency, honestly.

 

Through that, you need to do some code to keep formants/timbre from shifting with the pitch so that it sounds natural, as well as smoothing out the time resets without it sounding weird.

 

warbling will be caused by the algorithms not knowing how to treat the input because it doesn't know the information it's reading.


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#15 TheRealZap

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:24 PM

I added a + FWIW


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#16 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 05:54 PM

I would MUCH rather see the effort made to further improve the existing pitch shifting for alt tunings and for 12 string.  It's good but far from great. 


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#17 clay-man

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 07:04 PM

I would MUCH rather see the effort made to further improve the existing pitch shifting for alt tunings and for 12 string.  It's good but far from great. 

 

Like I said, they mostly need to get rid of warbling all together. It hurts tne guitar player not being able to do techniques because the pitch shifter can't read it.

I think it would fix 12 strings as well.


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#18 alsithi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 09:43 AM

If autotune is feasible, and at the and of the day that is the only question I am asking...IF it can be done, then you only have to look at the facilities offered by the Peavey AT system to see that it would eliminate a lot of the other problems people are talking about. Their software offers the same kind of tuning options that the JTV does but apparently without some of the drawbacks.

 

If Line6's answer is 'No it isn't going to happen' then that's fine- I just want a response either way.


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#19 ur2funky

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

I find it odd that my ideascale post has attracted negative votes. Who in their right mind would OBJECT to having a guitar with the ability to tune itself?

 

I didn't post a negative vote, as I'm not even able to access ideascale to read your post, but I would be opposed to Autotune ala Peavey's system.  From what I understand, slight vibrato technique is removed with Autotune.  The auto pitch corrects it.  Vibrato is a big part of the expressive qualities of the guitar to me.  

 

It would be great to hear every chord ring in perfect pitch, but at the expense of vibrato?


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#20 TheRealZap

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 10:26 AM

I don't think we'd get an official response, either way... too speculative.

but there could also be other things in the way aside from technical capability... what if peavey/autotune have an exclusive agreement of some sort? (as an example)

would it be worth it to develop similar capabilities internal to line6? (they've probably got a headstart on this to be honest with current capabilities)

 

with the limitations that funky mentioned, i  would hope it would be per model/defeatable. 

 i still think that the tech is intriguing, and worth finding a "right way" to do it.


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#21 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:28 AM

Just think how autotune would interact with bending notes and using the Trem.  You would have to have a way to lock it in when you are not playing.


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#22 clay-man

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 11:50 AM

Just think how autotune would interact with bending notes and using the Trem.  You would have to have a way to lock it in when you are not playing.

 

I believe autotune's system detects when you're doing bends, so it turns off the autotune feature when you do. I do think the perfect intonation thing is amazing, but something about digitally tuning an out of tune guitar just feels really lazy to me.


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#23 TheRealZap

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 12:54 PM

the shaving cream represents the idea....

 

9303_f14b.gif

 

and the intended victim represents the forum response.


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#24 alsithi

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 01:21 PM

When my band plays 'Stairway' I seamlessly shift from acoustic guitar to electric 12 string and finally a les paul without taking my hands off the instrument, but having the facility to guarantee all are in tune is abusing technology? Unfortunately I don't have a roadie to hand me the pre-tuned guitars on stage, otherwise I probably wouldn't be asking the question....

 

I also know a keyboard player who criticises my singer for using a Voicelive 2, completely missing the irony when he plays his Nord, Casio and Yamaha synthesisers.


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#25 johnnyayyy

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:20 PM

Unfortunately I don't have a roadie to hand me the pre-tuned guitars on stage

 

People love it when a band stops playing for 10 minutes after every song to tune...

 

The only thing better is listening to them continue to play out of tune.

 

I ran a recording studio for many years and made tons of money on people retuning after every take, and re-recording out of tune takes.

 

Before that I wasted tons of money in other peoples' studios tuning and retuning, and have been the guy onstage taking 10 minutes to tune between songs (for many years I played a vintage Gretsch with a well used Bigsby that I enjoyed beating the hell out of live - it was always a miracle if it was in tune by the end of a song).

 

I welcome our Autotune overlords, not because I do not know how to tune a guitar or am too lazy to do so, but only to save precious time onstage and in the studio.


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#26 ur2funky

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:11 PM

Some funny posts!!!

Has anyone tried it?


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#27 clay-man

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 05:06 PM

When my band plays 'Stairway' I seamlessly shift from acoustic guitar to electric 12 string and finally a les paul without taking my hands off the instrument, but having the facility to guarantee all are in tune is abusing technology? Unfortunately I don't have a roadie to hand me the pre-tuned guitars on stage, otherwise I probably wouldn't be asking the question....

 

I also know a keyboard player who criticises my singer for using a Voicelive 2, completely missing the irony when he plays his Nord, Casio and Yamaha synthesisers.

 

There's a difference between effects and processing to change the sound of your strings, and then there's letting your strings flop around because they're poorly tuned, and could eventually be severely out of tune. That's my argument. 

 

Perhaps to tune perfectly is fine, but to just throw the strings on and hit the "tune for me" button is getting lazy.

 

It's just something I think you should always do, have your stuff actually tuned up decently. 


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#28 GearFarm

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:01 PM

Come on...nobody buys this type of guitar because they don't know how to tune a guitar.

And even if they did, who cares? They aren't going to be out playing in any club I'd want to be in and they won't be putting out any music I'd care to listen to.

I couldn't care less.

I've played the Peavey AT and it was damn cool.

I still tuned it up as close as I could get it, but we all know, or should know that a guitar is never perfectly in tune with itself.

But...it was with the Peavey AT. Only reason I didn't buy it and got a JTV is the Peaveys piezos didn't sounds as good as the mags, which didn't sound as good as I would have liked.

I'm a single coil Strat player and the PV's mag were just bland and thick...and of course, no modeling.

The technology is here and I'd love to see it implemented in the JTV...doesn't mean you have to use it or are going to lose the ability to tune a guitar if you do.


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#29 clay-man

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Posted 08 October 2013 - 06:54 PM

Come on...nobody buys this type of guitar because they don't know how to tune a guitar.

And even if they did, who cares? They aren't going to be out playing in any club I'd want to be in and they won't be putting out any music I'd care to listen to.

I couldn't care less.

I've played the Peavey AT and it was damn cool.

I still tuned it up as close as I could get it, but we all know, or should know that a guitar is never perfectly in tune with itself.

But...it was with the Peavey AT. Only reason I didn't buy it and got a JTV is the Peaveys piezos didn't sounds as good as the mags, which didn't sound as good as I would have liked.

I'm a single coil Strat player and the PV's mag were just bland and thick...and of course, no modeling.

The technology is here and I'd love to see it implemented in the JTV...doesn't mean you have to use it or are going to lose the ability to tune a guitar if you do.

 

That's not what I mean at all. It's fine to tune it up perfectly, but I'm talking about someone who never touches the tuning pegs after they string their guitar. It's lazy because it'll sound off if it's way out of tune physically.


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#30 alsithi

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:55 AM

I know a couple of guys who WOULD do as clay-man suggests and never bother to tune the strings, but they are morons, not guitar players.

 

Personally I would tune mine as normal but rejoice in the knowledge that I could play through a set without having to worry about the tuning going off- something of a problem where I live as the high humidity levels we get here makes the guitar go crazy sometimes. Correct string tension is an important factor for the consistency of your playing. However even after all these years I still get blistered fingers and could easily imagine a scenario where I slackened strings off to ease the pain.

 

There would no doubt also be a number of players experimenting with string tension in a creative way...and of course, you could simply turn the autotune off!


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#31 TxHCBP

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

I didn't post a negative vote, as I'm not even able to access ideascale to read your post, but I would be opposed to Autotune ala Peavey's system.  From what I understand, slight vibrato technique is removed with Autotune.  The auto pitch corrects it.  Vibrato is a big part of the expressive qualities of the guitar to me.  

 

It would be great to hear every chord ring in perfect pitch, but at the expense of vibrato?

 

Actually, the Peavey AT-200 does NOT remove vibrato/tremolo (or whatever you want to call it), and it does NOT remove any bends. It auto-detects these techniques and allows them  to "pass", unmodified. Yes, I own a Peavey AT-200 AutoTune "strat". Bought it a few months before I pulled the trigger on my JTV-59. The AutoTune/Perfect Intonation technology is "doable" in the Variax, but I suspect Peavey and Antares (the maker of "AutoTune for Guitar") have an exclusivity pact. Line 6 would be forced to engineer those functions from the ground up, and Antares MAY have applied for a patent (I would have).


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#32 ur2funky

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 12:51 PM

Actually, the Peavey AT-200 does NOT remove vibrato/tremolo (or whatever you want to call it), and it does NOT remove any bends. It auto-detects these techniques and allows them  to "pass", unmodified. Yes, I own a Peavey AT-200 AutoTune "strat". Bought it a few months before I pulled the trigger on my JTV-59. The AutoTune/Perfect Intonation technology is "doable" in the Variax, but I suspect Peavey and Antares (the maker of "AutoTune for Guitar") have an exclusivity pact. Line 6 would be forced to engineer those functions from the ground up, and Antares MAY have applied for a patent (I would have).

 

I haven't tried it.  I was referring to a review in Guitar Player Magazine Nov '13, where it won an Editor's Pick award and glowing review.  Tester James Nash writes "...very slow or light vibrato can be lost entirely" and noted "subtle stepping effects...on slow, wide bends."

 

It sounds interesting for sure.  But being a fan of eastern microtonal music and the Hendrix junkie that I am, I would need the ability to disable the correction.


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#33 TxHCBP

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:04 PM

"...very slow or light vibrato can be lost entirely" and noted "subtle stepping effects...on slow, wide bends."

 

Personally, if your vibrato is THAT slow or light  and if your bends are THAT slow and wide, maybe you might want to rethink/alter your technique. I haven't found a need for those techniques (I don't do rock, metal, etc.), but, as in all matters musical, YMMV. ;)


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#34 ur2funky

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

"...very slow or light vibrato can be lost entirely" and noted "subtle stepping effects...on slow, wide bends."

 

Personally, if your vibrato is THAT slow or light  and if your bends are THAT slow and wide, maybe you might want to rethink/alter your technique. I haven't found a need for those techniques (I don't do rock, metal, etc.), but, as in all matters musical, YMMV. ;)

 

Let me guess, you're a Blues Guitarist?   :D


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#35 TxHCBP

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 01:13 PM

Actually, mainly Country and Gospel (Country Gospel, Southern Gospel, some Bluegrass Gospel), but also beginning to learn some Blues, just to widen my "pallette" a bit. I'd like the ability to leave the rhythm playing a bit and throw in a little lead now and then. I don't want an eight minute solo full of shred, but a few, very minor riffs eased in between phrases would be good, I think.


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