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Deceiving Advertising By Line6!

asio drive latency line6

Best Answer toneman2121 , 08 May 2013 - 03:14 AM

even though i know little to nothing about recording i follow this thread because i kind of take offense to the heading and want to establish for myself if the claims are accurate. 

so i went to the products page and scoped the description. all i have to say is within 2 minutes i found what i would call the obvious. and i only say this because of what i learned from reading this thread. if i were reasonably knowledgeable to recording, i could determine from the statement, "stagescape is not designed to record into your daw." if that's what i had in mind, i would inquire at the time i was ready to purchase.

maybe one of you guys can tell me if i get the gist.

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#1 antonioctd

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:10 AM

It was advertised by line6 that it would work as an audio interface. 

 

It does not work because the crappy asio driver and the incredibly high latency makes this impossible. 

The latency issue is in fact a very serious one!

It makes the audio interface function advertised by line6 completely useless!

 

I understand that there are limitations in technology and maybe is not that easy to create a decent asio driver for the m20d. 

But that should be said in the advertising or, better yet, the usb multitrack streaming of audio should not have been included as a feature!

 

Line6 advertised every thing as it would be an all in one solution. 

 

I bought the M20d mainly for live sound but then I thought, if this thing is an audio interface I'll just get a laptop and I'll have a complete studio on the go!

 

I had an old AMD 1800 PC with windows XP (LOL) and an Edirol firewire interface that worked like a dream.

 

Just figured that it was time to upgrade.

So, I sold the edirol interface and a guitar I had lain around and got a new laptop. 

 

Now, I'm screwed! I've sold things that worked and I didn't know that the M20d would not work. It just does not work as advertised!

 

I'm in no condition to buy another interface now... 

 

I strongly believe that this is deceiving advertising and I'm seriously thinking I could sue Line6!!!


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#2 TheRealZap

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:30 AM

you can record direct to SD or USB... I think you probably had the wrong expectations and could have done a bit more research.


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#3 phil_m

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 08:36 AM

I've got to say I've never seen anything that led me to believe the M20d was a complete audio interface that could be used with a DAW. All I've seen is that it can record raw audio over USB, and that can be imported into whatever DAW you're using. Really, though, this can still be quite useful.


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#4 litesnsirens

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:48 AM

I had the same expectation, based on first glance reading of the literature.  But after it didn't work, when I re-read the literature, it's not claiming anywhere that you could successfully use this as a recording interface for your daw. That said, I just got a little Presonus Audiobox USB.  It's only 2 channels but if I need to record a band I will just record directly to the M20d, import the files to my DAW and then do individual overdubs with the audiobox.


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#5 antonioctd

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:08 AM

Man! They could just mention that clearly! 

 

I can't understand how hard would it be to just make a dam reasonably good asio driver...

 

The way I see it, if it is a useless feature as it stands, so why include it?

Never crossed my mind the line6 would release a product with such a lose end.

 

I really just assumed it would work... I guess I can't be blamed for assuming that  :huh:

 

Any way, I'm really mad at Line6 right now!! :angry:


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#6 TheRealZap

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:16 AM

I don't even currently have the device, and the feature sounds pretty awesome (as is, not as i wished it was) and far from useless to me....

 

The way I see it, if it is a useless feature as it stands, so why include it?


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#7 antonioctd

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:27 AM

I don't even currently have the device, and the feature sounds pretty awesome (as is, not as i wished it was) and far from useless to me....


It's useless because the latency is so big and the driver is so crappy that it's impossible to use it to even mix the project in the daw!!

Even if you import the files do the daw and use the usb on the m20d just to listen while you mix, there's a huge delay between pressing play and the audio starting!
It's difficult to visually spot problem areas on the recording because the play head in the daw is not in sync with the play back.
And the whole thing just drags a lot! I feel like I'm mixing in a 90's PC!

I even tried to use the m20d just as regular audio card for domestic proposes, just for fum of course. Can you believe that videos on youtube are impossible to watch because the audio will be almost 2s late!!

The more I think about it the more a come to the conclusion of "deceiving advertising".

I mean, they include usb audio streaming as a feature and they provide the driver for it.
Than it is so crappy you can't even watch a movie with it!! LOL
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#8 TheRealZap

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:40 AM

so don't use it in the daw... transfer it there after the fact like its designed to do.

 

you apparently want to do overdubs or something after the fact... it's just not that device.... wasn't designed to be that device...

but i'm certain that if it's possible to do... they would be working on it.

 

It's useless because the latency is so big and the driver is so crappy that it's impossible to use it to even mix the project in the daw!!


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#9 litesnsirens

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:11 AM

Hey listen if they could get the latency down on this device it would be amazing as an interface.  Especially if you can use the on board effects to monitor but record dry, like what happens now when you record direct to SD card.  Antoniocd is right, though, the latency as it stands at the lowest possible buffer size is still a half second, so you can record you initial tracks if you are monitoring direct from the M20d and it's perfect, but everything you record is hitting the "tape" a half second later so if you have to do over dubs or even punch ins, forget it.  The effects are so good that you can easily come up with a great sound and then monitor direct which gives you 0 latency, it's when you have to monitor back the already recorded material that you get into trouble.  I don't really understand the technicalities behind getting this machine to play nice with DAWs within an acceptable latency but I hope it can be done and I hope they are working on it.  I somewhat agree with Antoniocd's frustration although it's got nothing to do with being mad at Line 6 and everything to do with being so close to a complete miracle box but just missing the mark.  I know, it does a ton already and I absolutely love the M20d (although I am still having a few issues with SD cards, but I'll start another thread for that) but it just begs the question - WHY????  If they could get this working it would make the M20d the total package and answer for a crapload more people.


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#10 TheRealZap

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:14 AM

If they can they will... i'm confident in that... the m20d is only their first of this type of device.. and it makes sense that they are taking notes and moving forward.

 

 

 

Hey listen if they could get the latency down on this device it would be amazing as an interface.  Especially if you can use the on board effects to monitor but record dry, like what happens now when you record direct to SD card.  Antoniocd is right, though, the latency as it stands at the lowest possible buffer size is still a half second, so you can record you initial tracks if you are monitoring direct from the M20d and it's perfect, but everything you record is hitting the "tape" a half second later so if you have to do over dubs or even punch ins, forget it.  The effects are so good that you can easily come up with a great sound and then monitor direct which gives you 0 latency, it's when you have to monitor back the already recorded material that you get into trouble.  I don't really understand the technicalities behind getting this machine to play nice with DAWs within an acceptable latency but I hope it can be done and I hope they are working on it.  I somewhat agree with Antoniocd's frustration although it's got nothing to do with being mad at Line 6 and everything to do with being so close to a complete miracle box but just missing the mark.  I know, it does a ton already and I absolutely love the M20d (although I am still having a few issues with SD cards, but I'll start another thread for that) but it just begs the question - WHY????  If they could get this working it would make the M20d the total package and answer for a crapload more people.


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#11 line6jonb

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:01 PM

Hi Antonio,

I completely understand your disappointment since it can be construed that the use of streaming to a computer means "as audio interface" and it works perfectly. The USB port can still be used for any streaming that does not require monitoring through the computer and we tried to keep our language clear by talking about streaming to computer. In this case, obviously it did not work so well. Otherwise, we would not have caused you the trouble you are mentioning. The M20d is primarily meant to be used as a live sound mixing console, and we are working to reduce latency when streaming.

The fact that you ended up with no audio interface because you sold it relying on StageScape to replace it is of course a problem.

I'd like to talk more about this with you, and, again, I apologize for the strife this has caused you. I will be reaching out to you shortly.

Does the rest of the mixer meet your expectations?

Jon

#12 litesnsirens

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:43 PM

As I stated above Jon, if you guys at Line 6 can make the latency reasonable for recording to a DAW, it would be an amazing enhancement!!! 


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#13 antonioctd

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:46 PM

Hi Antonio,

I completely understand your disappointment since it can be construed that the use of streaming to a computer means "as audio interface" and it works perfectly. The USB port can still be used for any streaming that does not require monitoring through the computer and we tried to keep our language clear by talking about streaming to computer. In this case, obviously it did not work so well. Otherwise, we would not have caused you the trouble you are mentioning. The M20d is primarily meant to be used as a live sound mixing console, and we are working to reduce latency when streaming.

The fact that you ended up with no audio interface because you sold it relying on StageScape to replace it is of course a problem.

I'd like to talk more about this with you, and, again, I apologize for the strife this has caused you. I will be reaching out to you shortly.

Does the rest of the mixer meet your expectations?

Jon

 

 

Thanks! I knew some one form line6 would talk to me. You guys are very nice!

 

I wont lie, I'm a bit astonished by the fact that you released the product like that...

 

I mean why in the world would you include the usb streaming feature if it does not work?

Don't tell me that it does because it's so slow that it's useless... 

 

If I were in your place, making the decision, I would not include this feature. But you even included a dedicated usb port!  :rolleyes:

I think anybody would assume that it would work at least reasonably.

 

Any way, I've been tweaking all day long.

I can now import the files to the daw and use the m20d just to listen while I mix.

Avery action I take in the mix I only ear it a second or so later.

It's annoying but at least every thing else is running smooth, before messing with a lot of driver settings the whole pc was running slow and I had audio artifacts. 

 

If you say you guys are working on it I believe it and I know you'll manage do do it! So I'll just wait...

 

Just one thing that is bugging me now:

 

How come it is so difficult to do a good asio driver for this thing?? And.... why doesn't it work with my trusted pal asio4all?? 

 

And YES. The mixer meets my expectations in any other way. B)

 

PS - I'm sorry but "streaming out to the computer" is the definition of audio interface... I'm I wrong? 


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#14 silverhead

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 12:59 PM

But you even included a dedicated usb port!

.... why doesn't it work with my trusted pal asio4all??

First off, let me say that I also would LOVE for this device to be upgraded so that it is a useful audio interface. I agree with you, antonioctd, that right now it is not. So I am behind the spirit of your thread (but not the title) and would love to see the update that addresses the latency.

But just a couple of comments ....

The USB port is useful to record to a USB storage device, in addtion to the SD card capability. So it is not useless - and it is also useful for the initial audio streaming of a recording to your DAW (as advertised). The problem lies in using the M20d as a general audio interface, where low latency is required for overdubbing and adding more tracks.

ASIO4ALL is not a compliant ASIO driver, and I hope Line 6 never designs non-compliant ASIO interfaces.
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#15 antonioctd

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:15 PM

First off, let me say that I also would LOVE for this device to be upgraded so that it is a useful audio interface. I agree with you, antonioctd, that right now it is not. So I am behind the spirit of your thread (but not the title) and would love to see the update that addresses the latency.

But just a couple of comments ....

The USB port is useful to record to a USB storage device, in addtion to the SD card capability. So it is not useless - and it is also useful for the initial audio streaming of a recording to your DAW (as advertised). The problem lies in using the M20d as a general audio interface, where low latency is required for overdubbing and adding more tracks.

ASIO4ALL is not a compliant ASIO driver, and I hope Line 6 never designs non-compliant ASIO interfaces.


I was talking about the usb port that`s labeled "pc". Not the one for storage devices.

I don't know what a "compliant Asio driver" is. I just know Asio4all as been working great for me...
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#16 phil_m

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 03:54 PM

I wont lie, I'm a bit astonished by the fact that you released the product like that...

 

I mean why in the world would you include the usb streaming feature if it does not work?

Don't tell me that it does because it's so slow that it's useless...

 

I had written something earlier, but I deleted because I didn't feel it added a lot to the conversation, but I'll throw my two cents in again. I don't own the M20d, and I honestly haven't done a lot of research on it. But nothing in Line 6's promotional materials led me to believe that it was a full audio interface. I took the USB streaming feature to be simply that - a streaming of the raw audio tracks over USB so they could be edited in a DAW later. I don't think Line 6 designed the M20d as a studio product. It has always been marketed as a live mixing solution. In fact, the product tab it's listed under is "Live Sound". So what I envisioned was something that would give a shortcut to track the band live without having to use a bunch of patch cables going into a recording console or other interface. I never really thought that the M20d would allow playback and editing from the computer.

 

PS - I'm sorry but "streaming out to the computer" is the definition of audio interface... I'm I wrong?

 

Well, again, I think you're making an assumption. There are other digital mixers on the market that have USB audio outputs, too, and they aren't fully functional interfaces either. And in most of those cases, a lot of those mixers only give you a left and right output from the master. So in that respect, the Line 6 mixer is offering a lot more.


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#17 dboomer

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:33 PM

Hey Antonio

 

You are misunderstanding the definition of streaming.  Streaming is a way of transmitting data when the complete file does not have to be downloaded before playback can occur.  The term by itself does not imply near real-time performance.

 

It would be wonderful if the latency could be reduced but we've never represented that the M20d could be used as a recording interface.  In fact we've gone out of our way to point that out in this forum many times.  They way we imagine streaming to be used would be by someone podcasting a live show in near real time.  They would do a live room mix for the audience using the M20d and stream the audio over to a DAW where a different mix for broadcast could be constructed and transmitted out.

 

The M20d's recording ability is to capture your live performance and then transfer the files (download, not stream) over to a computer DAW for remixing, sweeting, overdubing etc.  The M20d was never intended to be used to do final mixes as you cannot transfer your 2tk mix out digitally.



#18 antonioctd

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:40 PM

Ok. So my title is wrong.

But, how hard can it be to make a decent asio driver??
Is there any technical issue I'm not seeing?

Because, if you fix this issue the m20d would be a true all in one solution.
It's a bit frustrating, you have the hardware and every thing.
Looks like the only thing missing for perfection is a driver. Can't you just write one??
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#19 toneman2121

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:14 AM   Best Answer

even though i know little to nothing about recording i follow this thread because i kind of take offense to the heading and want to establish for myself if the claims are accurate. 

so i went to the products page and scoped the description. all i have to say is within 2 minutes i found what i would call the obvious. and i only say this because of what i learned from reading this thread. if i were reasonably knowledgeable to recording, i could determine from the statement, "stagescape is not designed to record into your daw." if that's what i had in mind, i would inquire at the time i was ready to purchase.

maybe one of you guys can tell me if i get the gist.


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I'M SO HAPPY!


#20 TheRealZap

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:16 AM

ASIO isn't just a driver... it's a specification... and if your hardware falls short, all the driver in the world won't fix it....

that's why there is horrible reverse engineered fake drivers like ASIO4ALL that go around those specifications.... 


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