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Philosophy, Skill Aquisition And Why I'm Falling Out With My Dt25


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#1 Stratman82

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Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:53 PM

This topic kind of began in a thread I started in the podHD section yesterday discussing fully digital tone vs tube tone from the DT25 + podHD500x combination. That thread is here: http://line6.com/sup...ull-power-mode/

 

I thought it was worth bringing this more philosophical part of the discussion into a separate thread.

 

The gist of it is as below (please forgive the gaming analogy but it seems appropriate):

 

"Philosophically, I've stopped playing computer games as I feel the time invested in acquisition of guitar skill is much better spent. It's cross transferable and will last forever. Skill on a computer game is often only useful until you start playing a new game or the next console comes out. I'm starting to think that the "dream rig" is similar to computer games. I'm spending hours tweaking and getting to know it and ultimately for what? The technology is sure to be updated in the near future and that time in "skill acquisition" will probably be wasted, particularly if I move away from Line 6. At least time spent getting to know traditional tube amp is transferable to similar analogue units...and that will always be the case as classic amps will never go out of fashion."

 

When I talk about the dream rig I mean podHD + DT amp minus Variax guitar as I've stayed clear of them so far. Basically, what I'm finding with this rig is that it can be quite glitchy in terms of volume and patch settings, particularly when moving from a "full" patch to a "pre" patch in full power mode with tubes engaged. I've spent obscene amounts of time tweaking and setting up the modelling software parameters. Its was a kick in the teeth when I did this for home/ low volume use and then found a whole new set of patches would be required in full power mode, essentially equivalent to a seperate and loosely related rig.

 

I've even attempted at one point to simplify the situation by setting up one set of patches in pre amp mode with a power attenuator and thhe DT25 always in full power mode (in theory allowing the only "tweak" to be  reduced attenuation via the THD hotplate as I move from home to stage). The result? Still too loud for home use at levels of attenuation that maintain the amps tone quality.At -12db attenuation and beyond I may as well be using a Spider amp or similar small modelling combo.

 

The idea that there would be a seamless transition from home to studio to jam session to live tone with this rig (my perception in the beginning) has gone right out of the window. I am faced with layers and layers of complexity in each situation.

 

The result? Less time actually playing and enjoying my guitars. More time acheiving a stiff neck stooping forward over my laptop tweaking software parameters.

 

And as per my quote above....what am I gaining in terms of skill aquisition? The ability to tweak software which will be dated in a couple of years. As per my thread above, there doesnt even seem to be any great advantage in tone.

 

I'm starting to hanker after a situation where I can sit, laptop switched off, playing guitar at home with a quality low wattage tube amp. Clean to crunch to high gain with the sweep of an analogue knob on the amps control panel. Volume adjusted within the remit of the amp (+/- in built power atenuation as the DT25 should have had). Gaining lasting, transferable skill with an analogue tube amp that won't ever be technologically "out of date" or go out of fashion....will last a lifetime. And actually concentrating on playing the guitar....

 

As I say in that previous thread, I fear the DT25 will ultimately be seen as an early prototype amp in terms of  a tube amp/ digital interface that works in every situation. The versatility and accuracy of the patch system is the big selling point here....but that veratility just isn't there when taking the amp from one situation to the next. The investment of time and aquisition of tecnological knowledge that will soon be outdated detracts from enjoying my instruments.


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#2 mribanezmetal

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 01:40 AM

Firstly, let me say that I own a HD400 & a DT50 and can relate to what your saying and agree in the main that with this rig, there IS the possibility of never ending noodling. Everyone is going to tell you that this gear is not plug and play etc (which is true) but from reading your post, it seems that you just enjoy a simpler less complicated setup? You wanna play NOT tweak!! I get it!!..........................

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                   It doesn't HAVE to be complicated!!

 

                                                The genius with the 'Dream rig' is its limited only to the player as to how much you desire to explore the infinite possibilities (or not)

 

 

 

For me personally theres a positive 'headspace' or 'nice feeling' when I plug straight into the DT50 rather than integrating the HD400........it feels more tangible, tactile and real. I know for certain that tones dialled in using the FACTORY HD models in the amp (Fender, Marshall, Vox, Mesa) can also be found when using the same 4 HD amp models (pre only NOT full models) from the PODxxx to your DT amp via L6 link. I now use the HD400 for recording and plugging in direct at venues where volume could be an issue - I LOVE the idea of having the flexibility to 'bring in' the HD400 with my amp at anytime I want though! e.g.: needing a boost or wha in front etc. ( not big on FX myself anyway so I can just live with the reverb in the amp no problem)

 

After some playing and thinking I decided the factory amp models where a great start but I preferred the Marshall flavours SO.......... 

 

I installed the latest firmware from Line 6 and downloaded DT Cutomizer (for iPad) to allow select up to 30 HD amp models found in the HDxxx series. Across the 4 topologies on each channel, you can store 8 HD amp models at a time in your DT series amp. 

 

Info here: http://line6.com/dtv2update/

 

Dt Customizer: http://www.cunningha...m/DTCustomizer/

 

I now use models: Brit J-45 - Park 75 - Brit J-800 - Treadplate  on both channels and set the gain differently. 

 

For what its worth I've played professionally for many years and have owned many expensive and boutique amps and I wish this amp was available years ago!! Ok at worst IF the modelling is only 96% of the way there, at 110dB with earplugs in, it's unlikely you or the audience will know any different - but lets not go in that long debate about modelling v's the real mccoy! 

 

With a little bit of perseverance you'll be able to tailor the amp/rig to suite YOUR needs so don't write it off just yet. Even if you didn't want to take these steps, the DT series amp is still a fantastic stand alone amp that can hold its own in any situation. 

 

All the best, let us know how you go.  :)


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#3 Stratman82

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:50 AM

I know for certain that tones dialled in using the FACTORY HD models in the amp (Fender, Marshall, Vox, Mesa) can also be found when using the same 4 HD amp models (pre only NOT full models) from the PODxxx to your DT amp via L6 link.

 

Thanks for you reply, its food for thought.

 

I must say that my experience is that I dont get exactly the same tones with the podHD via L6 using pre only models....

 

In fact, as far as I can tell thats not always possible because of a fixed microphone model in the amp..... I use DT edit via midi and have changed some of the internal models in the amp. However what I notice is that although the amp and cab can be set per individual voicing, the modelled microphone within the DT amp is the same for every voicing, you can't change it per voicing. Now that doesnt mater if playing via the pod which will change the cab microphone but it will matter if playing via the DT alone. We all know from fiddling with this stuff in full mode with the podHD that the simulated microphone selected makes a HUGE difference to the tone. That will affect the DT25 standalone tones as well, making close tone matching impossible in some situations.

 

I'd go as far as saying I can acheive a more consistent tone/ volume/ result by using the DT (in full power mode) and using the same full amp model patches I use with the pod on its own. In this case I can use the DT amps master volume to control loudness without significantly changing the (digital) tone.

 

I don't know how much, if any, effect the tubes are having in this situation (full amp models in full power mode). If its no influence at all, theres probably no point in having a tube amp! I find it much harder to tweak and and find useable pre amp patches in full volume mode- they actually sound worse to me!


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#4 mribanezmetal

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:30 AM

Hi! :D

 

You seem like your on top of it and have done your homework and I respect you've gone into more detail than most. I hope I've understood you here so bare with me with my response.

 

I'm going to assume your running your DT25 with a speaker cabinet of sorts? If so, the fact you cannot change the microphone type within a voicing is irrelevant because you already have a real cabinet so why would I want any other simulations on top of that? You want to run NO CABINET/MIC simulations in this configuration. Sadly I haven't used DT Edit so I'm assuming you can bypass the microphone model as you can in other editors.

 

Interestingly this question has been raised recently here: 

 

http://line6.com/sup...els/#entry10912

 

 

 

It's my understanding the microphone models within the amp where assigned to the XLR output on the rear for sending to a console and, when I use DT Customizer I'm able to use or bypass ONE GLOBAL microphone model ONLY to the XLR bus and NOT the speaker output and this can be PRE or POST MASTER volume. (so your stage level adjustments don't affect F.O.H)

 

Also found this thread about XLR cabinet simulation:

 

http://line6.com/sup...mulated-output/

 

There has been debate as to wether the HD models in the DT heads can be replicated using a HDxxx/DT combination and I say it IS possible (or so very close it's negligible) IF you set the POD preset correctly but theres some confusion out there on how to go about it the right way - don't know why! Anyway, this is beside the point and sort of off topic I guess.

 

I agree that when using the FULL models in the POD with the DT in full power mode it still sounds pretty good! (with lower volumes) But you've got another simulation again but this time it's of output tubes being 'pushed' - being amplified again - but never getting real tube sag etc. Ironically you want to eliminate as much modelling as possible and simplify the signal chain to get the best approximation of the amp your trying to emulate.

 

Sounds like your not able to turn the amp up? What about triode mode? 


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#5 Stratman82

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:32 AM

Thanks for your detailed explanation! That's all very interesting. I actually use the DT25 112 combo. From what your saying I gather the microphone emulation is automatically bypassed in full power mode then (as opposed to via XLR)? Or do I need to switch off via midi?

Your correct that I rarely turn up loud as I'm mainly a home/ small jam player. Many I'd have had more success with full power mode if I'd been able to tweak at 110db in a barn or something! Mabye I'm just so used to the modelled tone I get that I've lost judgement!

I guess the main problem is that all the tweaking has detracted from the fun of the thing- I somehow feel that if I had a small wattage monster like an Orange OR15 I could just plug in and rock out to real tube goodness without hours of tweaking in the run up!
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#6 stumblinman

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 08:38 AM

It sounds like you are wanting us to make a personal tone decision for you. Use your Pod at home since you enjoy it. You talk about wanting a traditional tube amp to play as well. The DT can handle that. As a matter of fact, it's probably your best bet.

You don't seem to know what tones you actually want, so downloading firmware 2.0 and putting up to 8 different amps into the DT will help you find a personal favorite tube amp sound. Once you know what you want, either stick to that tone on the DT and use your Pod for effects live, or sell the DT and buy your chosen amp to use live with the Pod. Standalone, the gain and tone differences between LVM and full volume mode are not that different on the DT25. I never use my DT25 in LVM with my HD500 because I use my rig live and all my tones are set up accordingly.

If I am playing at home, I just turn down master volume on the amp and realize my practice time tone can be a little muffled since nobody cares. DT amps, like all tube amps, are meant to have best tones with some volume behind them.

There you go. Home sound covered, live sound covered. If you spent half as much time concentrating on a good tone with DT25 standalone as you did tweaking your Pod, I think you'd be surprised at how good the amp sounds live.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are a bedroom player trying to prepare for playing out live? You have your bedroom tones. Spend some time tweaking pre tones and don't be afraid to add EQ pedals to your chain to add/subtract frequencies that natural tone stacks don't cover. Find the dirt tone you like and you can EQ it to be perfect. Good luck and happy noodling.
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#7 Stratman82

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:26 AM

It sounds like you are wanting us to make a personal tone decision for you. Use your Pod at home since you enjoy it. You talk about wanting a traditional tube amp to play as well. The DT can handle that. As a matter of fact, it's probably your best bet.
You don't seem to know what tones you actually want, so downloading firmware 2.0 and putting up to 8 different amps into the DT will help you find a personal favorite tube amp sound. Once you know what you want, either stick to that tone on the DT and use your Pod for effects live, or sell the DT and buy your chosen amp to use live with the Pod. Standalone, the gain and tone differences between LVM and full volume mode are not that different on the DT25. I never use my DT25 in LVM with my HD500 because I use my rig live and all my tones are set up accordingly.
If I am playing at home, I just turn down master volume on the amp and realize my practice time tone can be a little muffled since nobody cares. DT amps, like all tube amps, are meant to have best tones with some volume behind them.
There you go. Home sound covered, live sound covered. If you spent half as much time concentrating on a good tone with DT25 standalone as you did tweaking your Pod, I think you'd be surprised at how good the amp sounds live.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are a bedroom player trying to prepare for playing out live? You have your bedroom tones. Spend some time tweaking pre tones and don't be afraid to add EQ pedals to your chain to add/subtract frequencies that natural tone stacks don't cover. Find the dirt tone you like and you can EQ it to be perfect. Good luck and happy noodling.

You are correct, I'm mainly a home player. Occasional informal jams with friends. Very rarely a gig on special occasions. Therefore most of my playing does tend to be at lower volume.

However I do know what tones I want (I've got several great home/podhd patches that I'll try and get on customtone shortly). Indeed I'd go as far as saying I'm quite good at making patches as I almost always prefer my own to most of the rubbish on customtone! I've even paid for patches before (Glenn Delaune I think the website was) which sounded great on his website but weren't as good as my own in "real life".... So I know what I'm after tone wise and I've already used DT edit to change the preamps on my DT25.

Having said that when I saw this video I almost cried (well, not quite), it's the crunch tone of my dreams and I can't get it so far on the line 6 rig. Maybe that's what's put me off the DT25 after 2 years of use.... Have you managed to get close to this crunch tone and if so how how how?!http://youtu.be/-gz60KS64pU
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#8 stumblinman

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Posted 14 October 2013 - 11:49 AM

That is a sweet tone. Probably the only Orange amp I've heard that I actually like. Worth some experimenting with Pod and DT25. If you want that tone and that tone alone, I think you know what to do.
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#9 innovine

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 05:53 AM

I've disconnected my pod500 and just use my dt25 like a standard two channel amp with a pedal on front. Does the job and no distractions. The dream rig is just a tweak nightmare, and if you can't settle on something and take control of it then you should eliminate all the options which are distracting you.
I'm a very technical kind of guy and have a lot of midi gear all working together, so its not an ability thing. I abandoned the dream rig configuration for now because the complexity outweighed the flexibility. Perhaps you should try the same. Or just stick to a single amp model and basic fx. Unless you're in a real serious cover band you should be able to make do with a much simpler setup
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#10 radatats

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:18 AM

I really don't understand the whole problem here and I mean no disrespect.  On the one hand you say you are mostly a home player at low volumes, yet you want the full crank tube tone.  That is why modelers were invented and POD HD does it very well.  You say you are considering selling the DT25 and getting an OR15H! You will never get the tone you want from that either unless you turn it up and you will lose all the flexibility and compatibility that the DT25 now gives you so that sort of contradicts what you want.  If you go with another tube amp and the HD you will still have to recreate all your patches to work with the tube amp and you will have to fumble with a 4 cable setup as well.  Still have to make adjustments at the venue.

 

I guess using the DT25 without the POD works well but I don't see how you are saving any amount of tweaking.  You only have two choices, A or B, but every change requires you to reset your drive, tone stack, channel volume, etc...  and you still have to play with it till you find the one you like.  And every time you set up you have to reset it just the way it was again.  Not so with POD and that is what we bought it for.  The only thing that comes close outside modelers is the new H&K Grandmeister.  But again, while it has different channels it is still only one basic amp.  And you still have to play with 4 cable setups etc...  It does have the built in Red Box (attenuator) though which would put the DT over the top for me...

 

I have been playing now for 40 yrs and while this setup has taken time to learn, I have never had so many options in my life for so little expense.  We are truly spoiled rotten and that may be the real problem here.  Not so long ago you played what ever you had and cranked it balls to the wall.  When you could afford it you bought something bigger, louder, better but you played what you had and loved it.  Today we have this little miracle in front of us that allows us to play virtually all the greatest amps and cabs in the business with an amazing array of effects in almost any configuration we want without noise, interference, impedance mismatching, dead batteries, tube failures, thousands of dollars in mics and other professional gear.  And yet we sit here jonesing over some elusive magical "tube tone" that is just around the corner.  I have yet to see an audience walk out because the lead player's tone was "sounding digital"...  The magic is still in the fingers.

 

Nothing is perfect.  If we had the best Marshall/Mesa/Fender/Splawn in the world we would still most likely be complaining that we just couldn't quite get that one tone it was never designed to give us anyways.  We need to make the most of what we have and realize that what we do have is as good as it gets today.  Make your patches the way you want them and continue to grow and learn as a musician and technician.  I see there is a great conversion utility pinned to the board that lets you batch convert your full amp patches to preamp patches.  Use it and save some time along the way.  Concentrate on the goodness you are getting and ignore the little crap, because believe me, there was ALWAYS little crap, it just cost a hell of a lot more to overcome. 

 

I hope I didn't upset anyone, I meant no disrespect or harm.  I just hate to see someone unhappy with their gear when it really is such amazing stuff with incredible capabilities...


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#11 BigChas52

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:31 AM

Lots of points of view here.  The solution I use is to create tones on my HD500 using full models for "bedroom" use.  I amplify through a set of desktop monitors and I'm able to get great tone for "playing along"  I translate the same settings to the Pre models for use in jam/gig situations with my DT25 and L6Link.  No, they don't sound exactly the same, but they are close enough after some minor volume and EQ tweaking.


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#12 Stratman82

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:42 AM

I really don't understand the whole problem here and I mean no disrespect.  On the one hand you say you are mostly a home player at low volumes, yet you want the full crank tube tone.  That is why modelers were invented and POD HD does it very well.  You say you are considering selling the DT25 and getting an OR15H! You will never get the tone you want from that either unless you turn it up and you will lose all the flexibility and compatibility that the DT25 now gives you so that sort of contradicts what you want.  If you go with another tube amp and the HD you will still have to recreate all your patches to work with the tube amp and you will have to fumble with a 4 cable setup as well.  Still have to make adjustments at the venue.

 

I guess using the DT25 without the POD works well but I don't see how you are saving any amount of tweaking.  You only have two choices, A or B, but every change requires you to reset your drive, tone stack, channel volume, etc...  and you still have to play with it till you find the one you like.  And every time you set up you have to reset it just the way it was again.  Not so with POD and that is what we bought it for.  The only thing that comes close outside modelers is the new H&K Grandmeister.  But again, while it has different channels it is still only one basic amp.  And you still have to play with 4 cable setups etc...  It does have the built in Red Box (attenuator) though which would put the DT over the top for me...

 

I have been playing now for 40 yrs and while this setup has taken time to learn, I have never had so many options in my life for so little expense.  We are truly spoiled rotten and that may be the real problem here.  Not so long ago you played what ever you had and cranked it balls to the wall.  When you could afford it you bought something bigger, louder, better but you played what you had and loved it.  Today we have this little miracle in front of us that allows us to play virtually all the greatest amps and cabs in the business with an amazing array of effects in almost any configuration we want without noise, interference, impedance mismatching, dead batteries, tube failures, thousands of dollars in mics and other professional gear.  And yet we sit here jonesing over some elusive magical "tube tone" that is just around the corner.  I have yet to see an audience walk out because the lead player's tone was "sounding digital"...  The magic is still in the fingers.

 

Nothing is perfect.  If we had the best Marshall/Mesa/Fender/Splawn in the world we would still most likely be complaining that we just couldn't quite get that one tone it was never designed to give us anyways.  We need to make the most of what we have and realize that what we do have is as good as it gets today.  Make your patches the way you want them and continue to grow and learn as a musician and technician.  I see there is a great conversion utility pinned to the board that lets you batch convert your full amp patches to preamp patches.  Use it and save some time along the way.  Concentrate on the goodness you are getting and ignore the little crap, because believe me, there was ALWAYS little crap, it just cost a hell of a lot more to overcome. 

 

I hope I didn't upset anyone, I meant no disrespect or harm.  I just hate to see someone unhappy with their gear when it really is such amazing stuff with incredible capabilities...

 

No disrespect taken, all views on this are valid and I respect your 40 years of experience...much more than I have!

 

Mostly a home player- yes. Ideally want the "full crank tube tone"- yes, don't we all? Thats the underlying reason driving the trend towards low wattage tube amps and better modelling across the board....a large proportion of modern guitarists are home based hobbyists like me. We don't want to compromise on tone beyond the confines of volume (admittedly most guitar tones are better at higher volume so theres a quality cap when playing at home). Hence why I've gone for a quality modeller in the HD500x, hence why I went for the hybrid tube amp (DT25 combo) that's designed to integrate with it. Hence why I haven't chosen a Spider, GDEC or similar. Hence why I spend hours noodling with the settings on both units trying to acheive the best tones possible under the circumstances. I've even tried the DT25, tubes blaring with the master volume cranked, hooked up to an 8ohm THD hotplate attenuator to reduce the decibel level to something manageable at home. The result? Ok but beyond about -12db of attenuation the tone suffers to the point where it is definately no better than the kit running in full digital mode with no "real tube" influence (i.e. LVM)....indeed I haven't fully convinced myself that full tube tone with this setup is definately better than full digital mode without attenuation but thats another topic.

 

I agree there's no perfect solution. I also agree that the HD500 and DT25 combo is an excellent (even world class) piece of kit within its remit and that it is undoubtedly excellent value for money given its versatility. I think we can probably also agree that the "Gold Standard" is great tube amplifier tone, as you say the "best in the world". Hence why Line 6 is "modelling" real tube amps rather than trying to redifine where electric guitar sound should come from in the first place. Hence why all the seemingly infinate tweakable parameters on this kit are designed to emulate varying analogue characteristics of real tube amps, from gain levels to bias to Sag. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery after all! I also accept that old style all-analogue rigs were also eminantly "tweakable" and require regular re-adjustment.....which leads me on to my original point and my first post on this thread....

 

I'll start with the caveat that, as great as this kit is (especially in terms of versatility) I haven't come across anyone who would say that any of the individual tones are completely equal or better to the original amps they emulate. Secondly, there is almost no debate that as good as the "feel" of playing through this kit is, the majority of players prefer the "feel" and responsiveness of full analogue tube kit (correct me if I'm wrong). I felt it for myself last week when I played through a friends Fender Blackface- tone at reasonable volume was very simialr to my Line 6 kit, but the Fender gear was more clearly significantly superior in terms of "feel" and touch sensitivity...

 

My original point (at last)..

Most would probably agree that there are certain compromises with this type of kit (as good as it is). Certainly fewer on this forum than other forums! With that in mind I would suggest that the DT25 is (excellent) 1st generation hybrid analogue-digital gear. There is a massive learning curve which, after 2 years, I think I am still on the steep part of! I've spent a good proportion of my "guitar time" with one hand on the guitar and the other on my laptop tweaking various pod or amp parameters. I am completely happy about spending so much time tweaking to acheive satisfactory tones? Clearly not given this thread! And crucially, has all this tweaking, learning and skill aquisition been a worthwhile investment of time in my guitar playing with the future in mind?? Thats what I'm concerned about. Time spent tweaking digital parameters on and mastering software that will soon be outdated, on a part-digital hybrid amp that will also be outdated sooner or later. And this at the expense of focused guitar practice time. The analogue kit that this Line 6 gear tries to emulate (and it does a good job) is timeless.....it won't be overtaken by a faster PCB or fancier computer software or more seemless digital interfaces between components. Noone will ever listen to Led Zeppelin II and wish Page had recorded his guitar tone on a digital modeller. I'd also contend that time spent getting to grips with that analogue equipment is more cross transferable between amp brands. With the Line 6 kit I'm getting good at their take on all of this. If I move to a different company in the future....its back to square one.

 

Yes, the Line 6 gear is excellent within its remit. Its supremely versatile. As good or better than the real thing in terms of tone and feel?...few outwith this forum would argue that. Maddeningly complicated and difficult to programme optimally (although great tones are possible)? Yes! 

 

Future proof and worth the massive investment of time? Worryingly, probably not. I would wager that in 50 years people will still be playing Fender Deluxe Reverbs and AC30s. Call of Duty...DT25s...??


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#13 Metalchef

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

No disrespect taken, all views on this are valid and I respect your 40 years of experience...much more than I have!
 
Mostly a home player- yes. Ideally want the "full crank tube tone"- yes, don't we all? Thats the underlying reason driving the trend towards low wattage tube amps and better modelling across the board....a large proportion of modern guitarists are home based hobbyists like me. We don't want to compromise on tone beyond the confines of volume (admittedly most guitar tones are better at higher volume so theres a quality cap when playing at home). Hence why I've gone for a quality modeller in the HD500x, hence why I went for the hybrid tube amp (DT25 combo) that's designed to integrate with it. Hence why I haven't chosen a Spider, GDEC or similar. Hence why I spend hours noodling with the settings on both units trying to acheive the best tones possible under the circumstances. I've even tried the DT25, tubes blaring with the master volume cranked, hooked up to an 8ohm THD hotplate attenuator to reduce the decibel level to something manageable at home. The result? Ok but beyond about -12db of attenuation the tone suffers to the point where it is definately no better than the kit running in full digital mode with no "real tube" influence (i.e. LVM)....indeed I haven't fully convinced myself that full tube tone with this setup is definately better than full digital mode without attenuation but thats another topic.
 
I agree there's no perfect solution. I also agree that the HD500 and DT25 combo is an excellent (even world class) piece of kit within its remit and that it is undoubtedly excellent value for money given its versatility. I think we can probably also agree that the "Gold Standard" is great tube amplifier tone, as you say the "best in the world". Hence why Line 6 is "modelling" real tube amps rather than trying to redifine where electric guitar sound should come from in the first place. Hence why all the seemingly infinate tweakable parameters on this kit are designed to emulate varying analogue characteristics of real tube amps, from gain levels to bias to Sag. Imitation is the greatest form of flattery after all! I also accept that old style all-analogue rigs were also eminantly "tweakable" and require regular re-adjustment.....which leads me on to my original point and my first post on this thread....
 
I'll start with the caveat that, as great as this kit is (especially in terms of versatility) I haven't come across anyone who would say that any of the individual tones are completely equal or better to the original amps they emulate. Secondly, there is almost no debate that as good as the "feel" of playing through this kit is, the majority of players prefer the "feel" and responsiveness of full analogue tube kit (correct me if I'm wrong). I felt it for myself last week when I played through a friends Fender Blackface- tone at reasonable volume was very simialr to my Line 6 kit, but the Fender gear was more clearly significantly superior in terms of "feel" and touch sensitivity...
 
My original point (at last)..
Most would probably agree that there are certain compromises with this type of kit (as good as it is). Certainly fewer on this forum than other forums! With that in mind I would suggest that the DT25 is (excellent) 1st generation hybrid analogue-digital gear. There is a massive learning curve which, after 2 years, I think I am still on the steep part of! I've spent a good proportion of my "guitar time" with one hand on the guitar and the other on my laptop tweaking various pod or amp parameters. I am completely happy about spending so much time tweaking to acheive satisfactory tones? Clearly not given this thread! And crucially, has all this tweaking, learning and skill aquisition been a worthwhile investment of time in my guitar playing with the future in mind?? Thats what I'm concerned about. Time spent tweaking digital parameters on and mastering software that will soon be outdated, on a part-digital hybrid amp that will also be outdated sooner or later. And this at the expense of focused guitar practice time. The analogue kit that this Line 6 gear tries to emulate (and it does a good job) is timeless.....it won't be overtaken by a faster PCB or fancier computer software or more seemless digital interfaces between components. Noone will ever listen to Led Zeppelin II and wish Page had recorded his guitar tone on a digital modeller. I'd also contend that time spent getting to grips with that analogue equipment is more cross transferable between amp brands. With the Line 6 kit I'm getting good at their take on all of this. If I move to a different company in the future....its back to square one.
 
Yes, the Line 6 gear is excellent within its remit. Its supremely versatile. As good or better than the real thing in terms of tone and feel?...few outwith this forum would argue that. Maddeningly complicated and difficult to programme optimally (although great tones are possible)? Yes! 
 
Future proof and worth the massive investment of time? Worryingly, probably not. I would wager that in 50 years people will still be playing Fender Deluxe Reverbs and AC30s. Call of Duty...DT25s...??


I can HONESTLYsay that I get that tube tone and feel from my pod hd500 and dt50 2x12. The feel in the Divided Model should be looked at as the pinnacle of modelling. That would be a hard amp to model. As well as that Amp I like to use.....

The AC30
Both Blackface Vib Amps
UBERSCHALL
JTM45
PARK
ALL SOLDANOS
DOOM
AND ANOTHER OF MY FAVES..... THE SUPRO MODEL. gets me the perfect early Led Zeppelin tones.
I used to run my 500 into my Marshall 900 And my Vox Nighttrain and u wanna talk about getting tweaker Back and neck. Geez never ending fiddling
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#14 mribanezmetal

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:10 PM

 The feel in the Divided Model should be looked at as the pinnacle of modelling. That would be a hard amp to model. 
AND ANOTHER OF MY FAVES..... THE SUPRO MODEL. gets me the perfect early Led Zeppelin tones.

I used to run my 500 into my Marshall 900 And my Vox Nighttrain and u wanna talk about getting tweaker Back and neck. Geez never ending fiddling

I agree with this 100%


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#15 Stratman82

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:16 PM

I can HONESTLYsay that I get that tube tone and feel from my pod hd500 and dt50 2x12. The feel in the Divided Model should be looked at as the pinnacle of modelling. That would be a hard amp to model. As well as that Amp I like to use.....
The AC30
Both Blackface Vib Amps
UBERSCHALL
JTM45
PARK
ALL SOLDANOS
DOOM
AND ANOTHER OF MY FAVES..... THE SUPRO MODEL. gets me the perfect early Led Zeppelin tones.
I used to run my 500 into my Marshall 900 And my Vox Nighttrain and u wanna talk about getting tweaker Back and neck. Geez never ending fiddling

I agree, as in my post above, that this kit sounds and feels good. As you say, in many ways the "pinnacle" of modelling at present. But that statement in itself concedes that this technology is constantly evolving.

The podHD modelling software will likely be outdated in less than 10 years. Do you think your DT50 part digital amp will still be receiving firmware updates or be universally serviceable in 20-30 years? Mabye that's not important as we should live for the present....but I for one can't shake the desire for a classic "amp for life" that will never be overtaken in terms of quality or usefulness by digital technology.

It's the reason I won't buy a variax / robot guitar. It's the reason I'm concerned that much of my time spent mastering the Line 6 kit is worthless as soon as I plug into a different brand.
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#16 mribanezmetal

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 11:29 PM

This post will be short and I do not mean to sound insensitive, It's my intention to just bring the main 'issue' to the forefront.

 

It sounds like your mind has been made up and so you should be honest with yourself and buy what you feel is going to make you happy. If theres any doubt in your mind modelling isn't cutting it, your never going to be satisfied.

 

Buy the orange.

 

Done.  


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#17 ozbadman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:37 AM

I agree, as in my post above, that this kit sounds and feels good. As you say, in many ways the "pinnacle" of modelling at present. But that statement in itself concedes that this technology is constantly evolving.

The podHD modelling software will likely be outdated in less than 10 years. Do you think your DT50 part digital amp will still be receiving firmware updates or be universally serviceable in 20-30 years? Mabye that's not important as we should live for the present....but I for one can't shake the desire for a classic "amp for life" that will never be overtaken in terms of quality or usefulness by digital technology.

It's the reason I won't buy a variax / robot guitar. It's the reason I'm concerned that much of my time spent mastering the Line 6 kit is worthless as soon as I plug into a different brand.

 

Or, you could think of it this way: Using a JTV, HD500 and/or a DT50 allows you to explore and learn about a wide pallet of sounds.

 

Thanks to these devices, I get to learn about and understand the difference between pickups, woods, effects, tube amp feedback setups, amp models, effect ordering, tone resistances, balanced outputs, microphone placement. etc. Now, when I go to choose my next expensive instrument/effect/amp, I have a much better understanding of what I'm looking for. Knowledge at an unbelievably cheap price compared to any other way of obtaining it.

 

my 3c.


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#18 mribanezmetal

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:27 AM

Or, you could think of it this way: Using a JTV, HD500 and/or a DT50 allows you to explore and learn about a wide pallet of sounds.

 

Thanks to these devices, I get to learn about and understand the difference between pickups, woods, effects, tube amp feedback setups, amp models, effect ordering, tone resistances, balanced outputs, microphone placement. etc. Now, when I go to choose my next expensive instrument/effect/amp, I have a much better understanding of what I'm looking for. Knowledge at an unbelievably cheap price compared to any other way of obtaining it.

 

my 3c.

SAME


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#19 Stratman82

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 01:30 AM

This post will be short and I do not mean to sound insensitive, It's my intention to just bring the main 'issue' to the forefront.

 

It sounds like your mind has been made up and so you should be honest with yourself and buy what you feel is going to make you happy. If theres any doubt in your mind modelling isn't cutting it, your never going to be satisfied.

 

Buy the orange.

 

Done.  

 

Its's not that the modelling "isn't cutting it"....the tone quality is good enough for an amateur/ hobbyist musician like me who mainly plays at home. There may be better all-tube options at home, I really don't know.

 

Concerned that the unit will be obsolete in a few years, yes. Concerned that my time mastering Line 6-specific software that will also be obsolete in time, yes. Concerned that no amp techs will have a scooby how to fix my DT25 when it breaks down in 15years, definately.

 

I'm a Line 6 fan, not a modelling hater. I've had podfarm, a Toneport UXI interface, podHD 300 (now upgraded to HD500x) and DT25. I'm just being pragmatic/ realistic about it all. No offense intended towards anyone that feels they have found the ultimate, lifelong solution for their needs in the podHD/ DT combination. Mabye it is and I will, in time eat my words!!


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#20 mribanezmetal

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:33 AM

I totally agree with you in regards to these products most probably being redundant over the years. If future redundancy is an issue for you then fair enough. For now though, I'm happy to accept the benefits and limitations of the product as it stands today and also accept that I'll probably be on board for the next revision of these amps or even possibly something completely different if thats the path I chose.

 

I've owned a squillion amps over the years and the DT series are as good as any of them but for different reasons. For example a real Marshall Plexi sounds awesome but it needs to be CRANKED but my DT50 sounds great at almost any volume if I'm realistic about my expectations on it's performance based on different volumes permitted (home v's venue) FOR ME a guitar rig with good tone AND some flexibility is the go and I'm happy to 'settle' for a small sacrifice in tone authenticity for flexibility. I've A/B'd my rig with a real Plexi and I can say yes, there is a difference in tone to some extent but it's marginal and the DT still sounded KILLER, just a slightly different spin on that classic amp and besides, the Plexi cant sound anywhere near like a Rectifier at flick of a switch!!

 

You've said it yourself, it's not like the modelling isn't cutting it so again, your DT25 in Class A mode is going to give you good 'tubey' tones at lower volumes at home with around 10 watts . If your playing really quite at home you need a 1 watt amp, seriously, and I'll explain why.

 

Your DT25 in Class A mode (10 watts) versus Class AB mode (25 watts) when turned up will actually only produce a marginal increase in volume - it will not literally double the volume. What its does is increase or decrease headroom which in turn 'pushes' or 'relaxes' the power stage. (relaxes isn't quite right but ....)  e.g. If you wanted a pushed clean tone run it at 10 watts and if you wanted a pure clean tone with no breakup run it at 25 watts.

 

To get 6dB gain (double volume) you need TEN TIMES the wattage!! So in theory if you weren't happy with the results with the DT25 in triode mode then maybe you do need to look at something else or experiment with your attenuator further.

 

Lets be honest, I really doubt your going to keep ANY amp for 20 to 30 years thats going to cover all the tones all of the time as your musical pallet evolves. If you could then my hat off to ya!  :D

 

I'm sure the tones are in there mate!


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#21 ozbadman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:44 AM

Concerned that my time mastering Line 6-specific software that will also be obsolete in time, yes.

 

There's very few parts of the JTV/HD500/DT25 combination that are Line 6 specific and not transferable so I guess I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's all just guitars, effects, and amps that happen to be models. Even HDEdit (apart from the EQ, but that's another story) just presents the effects to you on a computer screen in a very similar way to if you were actually twidding the knobs on the real units. To my way of thinking, there's very little gained knowledge that doesn't transfer, so I guess I don't understand your point or concern here.


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#22 Stratman82

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:48 AM

I totally agree with you in regards to these products most probably being redundant over the years. If future redundancy is an issue for you then fair enough. For now though, I'm happy to accept the benefits and limitations of the product as it stands today and also accept that I'll probably be on board for the next revision of these amps or even possibly something completely different if thats the path I chose.

 

I've owned a squillion amps over the years and the DT series are as good as any of them but for different reasons. For example a real Marshall Plexi sounds awesome but it needs to be CRANKED but my DT50 sounds great at almost any volume if I'm realistic about my expectations on it's performance based on different volumes permitted (home v's venue) FOR ME a guitar rig with good tone AND some flexibility is the go and I'm happy to 'settle' for a small sacrifice in tone authenticity for flexibility. I've A/B'd my rig with a real Plexi and I can say yes, there is a difference in tone to some extent but it's marginal and the DT still sounded KILLER, just a slightly different spin on that classic amp and besides, the Plexi cant sound anywhere near like a Rectifier at flick of a switch!!

 

You've said it yourself, it's not like the modelling isn't cutting it so again, your DT25 in triode mode is going to give you good 'tubey' tones at lower volumes at home with around 10 watts . If your playing really quite at home you need a 1 watt amp, seriously, and I'll explain why.

 

Your DT25 in Triode mode (10 watts) versus Pentode mode (25 watts) when turned up will actually only produce a marginal increase in volume - it will not literally double the volume. What its does is increase or decrease headroom which in turn 'pushes' or 'relaxes' the power stage. (relaxes isn't quite right but ....)  e.g. If you wanted a pushed clean tone run it at 10 watts and if you wanted a pure clean tone with no breakup run it at 25 watts.

 

To get 6dB gain (double volume) you need TEN TIMES the wattage!! So in theory if you weren't happy with the results with the DT25 in triode mode then maybe you do need to look at something else or experiment with your attenuator further.

 

Lets be honest, I really doubt your going to keep ANY amp for 20 to 30 years thats going to cover all the tones all of the time as your musical pallet evolves. If you could then my hat off to ya!  :D

 

I'm sure the tones are in there mate!

 

I agree with every word of this, very well put.

 

Its not just the "tone" issue its overall complexity, over-tweakability, future redundancy ect. too. I'm not as experienced as you with amps so mabye I just haven't been through enough trial and error to feel satisfied. I certainly think a lot of people write-off this sort of kit in ignorance without even trying (or hearing) it and I'm not one of those!

 

I think ultimately there is no absolute right or wrong answer here, just what works for individuals under individual circumstances. Of all my amp related kit the podHD500x  is the last thing I'd sell, no doubt!

 

I bought an OR15H this morning. I'll A/B it against the DT and make a final, properly informed decision on which amp to keep. Thats the best I can do.


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#23 Stratman82

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:51 AM

There's very few parts of the JTV/HD500/DT25 combination that are Line 6 specific and not transferable so I guess I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's all just guitars, effects, and amps that happen to be models. Even HDEdit (apart from the EQ, but that's another story) just presents the effects to you on a computer screen in a very similar way to if you were actually twidding the knobs on the real units. To my way of thinking, there's very little gained knowledge that doesn't transfer, so I guess I don't understand your point or concern here.

 

Fair enough!


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#24 mribanezmetal

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:58 AM

 

Its not just the "tone" issue its overall complexity, over-tweakability, future redundancy ect. too. I'm not as experienced as you with amps so mabye I just haven't been through enough trial and error to feel satisfied. I certainly think a lot of people write-off this sort of kit in ignorance without even trying (or hearing) it and I'm not one of those!

 

I think ultimately there is no absolute right or wrong answer here, just what works for individuals under individual circumstances. Of all my amp related kit the podHD500x  is the last thing I'd sell, no doubt!

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more with your comments here and I understand completely. Sounds like you need to go on that journey of discovery for yourself and come to your own conclusions and I totally get that.

 

Let us know how you go! I'm curious too! 


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#25 ozbadman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:13 AM

Its not just the "tone" issue its overall complexity, over-tweakability, future redundancy ect. too.

 

Ahh. Yes, it's definitely a complex system in terms of the number of options available to you. Given the breadth of coverage Line 6 gives, I think they've done a remarkable job of reducing the complexity. I also have an AxeFX and that thing is layers of tweakability. Very, very complicated.

 

But yeah, if it's overwhelming you end up learning nothing. Forests, trees, and all that.

 

I bought an OR15H this morning. I'll A/B it against the DT and make a final, properly informed decision on which amp to keep. Thats the best I can do.

 

I hope your Orange suits your needs better.

 

Good Luck in your search.


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#26 Stratman82

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:30 AM

Ahh. Yes, it's definitely a complex system in terms of the number of options available to you. Given the breadth of coverage Line 6 gives, I think they've done a remarkable job of reducing the complexity. I also have an AxeFX and that thing is layers of tweakability. Very, very complicated.

 

But yeah, if it's overwhelming you end up learning nothing. Forests, trees, and all that.

 

 

I hope your Orange suits your needs better.

 

Good Luck in your search.

 

Cheers.

 

I suspect what I'll end up doing is (if I like the Orange as much as I hope) use that for loud use +/- attenuator.

 

For night-time, silent use through headphones I'll approximate the tone somehow with the HD500x and one of its amp models. Either that or I could take the direct out Orange signal from the attenuator in "Load" mode into the podHD (I think??) or into my Yamaha THR10.

 

Or mabye I'll prefer the DT/ Line 6 tone after all and sell the Orange....!

 

I'll post the outcome on this thread in the future so those that are interested may want to follow the topic.

 

Signing out.

T.


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#27 Metalchef

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:38 AM

Hhmmmm..... So your concern is it being outdated? Believe me I hardly doubt this amp will be outdated. I did my research before buying and there is nothing so mystical nor part so elusive in it that it won't be able to be fixed or repaired. My thoughts on that are this.... People who are considered guitar god are playing through 40yr old Marshalls I've seen some through what looks like an Ancient Sumarian Fender combo. It's a general consensus that a lot of these amps get better with age. So I am not the least bit concerned about it being dated because even if your fear of no updates happens I'm still completely satisfied with the way things are now. I play sometimes using my stomp boxes and it sounds incredible as well. So I have and have no fear of using this Amp stand alone without the POD. I can agree that we could use a couple more Amps but right now with what we have I can get any sound that pops in my head. I have a gear lollipop friend who has bought and sold more gear than I've seen music stores stock trying to sound exactly like EVH and I find that a lot like chasing your tail. He is never going to sound exactly like EVH because he's not EVH. And I now torture him every time he calls me to come over and listen to his rig by telling him " mmmnnaaahhh you were closer with the Plexi and MXR phaser you had 17 amps ago.) so I guess before my early morning ramble (thank you wake and bake) I was trying to say that at some point in our crazy tone search you got to learn to like what you have. This rig gets me my tones that I use for my music and can get me as close as possible to any artist tone I have ever wanted to emulate. What was the topic of discussion again???? :-P
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#28 innovine

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:59 AM

I guess using the DT25 without the POD works well but I don't see how you are saving any amount of tweaking. You only have two choices, A or B, but every change requires you to reset your drive, tone stack, channel volume, etc... and you still have to play with it till you find the one you like.

'every change recuires you to'.. exactly. which means I rarely change it any more :)

I can dial in my tone on the amp without it even being turned on. The simplicity of the controls is very nice. With the pod connected, I find I add more effects, experience different gain staging, with different eqs to fine tune, etc etc

In the end I think this is bad. It leads me into endless tone chasing rather than playing. The simple and restricted options on the amp lead me to being happy with 'close enough', and I appreciate not being tempted to add an eq or something forea tiny betterment. I settle for less, because less is often more. More time to get the magic from the fingers, as you pointed out.

I agree with radatat that the flexibility is amazing, but its also a horrible distraction. I don't need to tweak my patches for each song, or each verse. That way madness lies. Each to their own of course, but I've found that the dream rig flexibility is bad. Get two or three good tones and make do with that, stop fiddling around. OP is just caught in tone chasing, exasperated by the options available.

When I got my gear, I wasn't really sure what tone I was after, so playing with ¨e different amp models was very educational. Now I'm settled on two. And if I get bored I can find some more. But its important to limit myself. I uninstalled the firmware upgrade for the same reasons.
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#29 stumblinman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:17 AM

I have my 4 "go-to" tones saved for my gigs, but I still build others for fun. I have a great brown sound saved, as well as a "High and Dry" era Def Leppard tone, and I'm currently working on that OR15 tone.
I will never use these as "my" tone, but they are fun to noodle with. My band mates love to use them when we are just messing around and jamming. All the tweaking helps me improve and learn just what makes certain amps and signal chains sound good, great, or godlike. The skill of using your ears to improve your tone will never become obsolete, regardless of your gear.

I have my tone, and if my Line 6 gear breaks, I will probably buy another or the next new thing by someone else that gives me my sound. My loyalty is only to my ear, not my gear.
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#30 geppert

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:04 AM

......  My loyalty is only to my ear, not my gear.

 

Couldn't agree more.


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#31 radatats

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

My loyalty is only to my ear, not my gear.

That is the essence of what I was trying to say about "back in the day"...  When all you had was a second hand amp and a beat up guitar with a pedal or two If you were lucky... there was no internet, no youtube, no detailed endless discussions of the nuances of plexi vs rectifier and you used your ears and imagination to try to find a tone anywhere near what you were hearing on vinyl...  you just turned it up and went for it.  We made the most of what we had and it was enough!

I totally agree about neverending tweaking to try and exactly duplicate someone elses tones.  FORGET IT!  Start with an amp model and no effects and set it in the middle across the board.  Then, one at a time adjust the tone knobs and the gain till you know exactly what they do for you and it SOUNDS right to YOU. Find a few amps that YOU like for different styles of music and learn what the knobs do.  That is what we had to do back in the day because there was nobody posting on the 'net giving advice.  When you get what you want, save it and it is always there to come back to.

As for learning transferable skills?  You can't realistically play with sag, hum, bias, cab resonance, etc. with regular tube gear... but it is nice to know what those are and what they do.  When you get a basic amp tone you like, take a weekend and just play with those settings, one at a time and LISTEN to what they do.  Once you can hear it, that skill will never leave you.  You will know what the effect of sag is on a real amplifier in AUDIBLE terms. They modeled real amps so treat your models like real amps. Forget multiple eq's and distortion, just get good basic amp tones without any additions.  You CAN do it...

When you have all that down (and it really doesn't take that long) you will have a pool of GREAT amps to choose from that don't need tweaking and fiddling with that you have created with your own EARS and your own gear.  Now you need to do the same process with your effects.  I certainly don't use or like all of them but I know exactly what they do for my EARS now.  I know the difference between a blue or red comp, and a tube comp.  And I treat my effect chain just as if it was a real one for placement and order, pre and post.  I have a couple of mods I like and some delays and reverbs.  I don't use them all but I know what they SOUND like and when to add them.  Do the same thing with your effects one at a time and save the settings you like in a new patch.  When you are done you will have a pool of GREAT amps and GREAT effects to use and your constant tweaking can stop.  DO NOT OVER COMPLICATE THINGS...  In real life, some of my favorite players have the simplest of rigs and sound amazing.  I strive for the same in my patches. I don't use multiple EQ's and gain stages.  I use minimal effects and only when I need them for a particular sound.

Finally, it's not just the amp or the modeler.  You need a decent guitar with good pickups, good cables and really good cabs/speakers.  My favorite patches may not sound worth a damn on your rig and vice versa.  Get the best you can afford for the hardware and the software will make them shine.

If you can't do that with this piece of gear, sad to say you probably won't be able to do it with the real thing either but you will be shelling out a lot of cash in the chase...  In the end it really isn't the gear, it's US. We CHOOSE to fiddle or play.  We CHOOSE to chase the tone.  We CHOOSE to just appreciate what we have, to play and just LISTEN to it...

Now let's see what new gear is on ZZounds today... LOL...


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#32 Stratman82

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:19 PM

Ok, like a true hypocritical turncoat I knocked up a patch to try and emulate the (Les Paul) tone in the Andertons Orange OR15H demo video that I've been salivating over....

 

Made playing my Les Paul Studio, bridge pickup.

 

Patch link here: http://line6.com/cus...ne/tone/239945/

 

Andertons video here: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-gz60KS64pU

 

Did I get close?!


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#33 innovine

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:50 AM

I've been thinking a bit more about this.

 

One of the appeals of a 'real' tube amp is that it sounds good. Another factor is that it's pretty simple to operate, you turn it on, there's a few rough dials to choose your tone and off you go. 

 

But if you look a little closer at that picture, there is a LOT of work gone into the design of the amp to get it there. The values of every component has been carefully chosen so that the amp sounds nice. The circuit designs, and even each capacitor and resistor no doubt had it's value adjusted many times before settling on something. These are ALSO variables you could tweak, but since that tweaking requires soldering and high voltage electronics, it's generally not done. Plus, the designers have already tweaked these machines so much that they sound great from the start and further tweaking often would be detrimental...

 

Now, onto the dream rig. Yes, it's modelling the amps pretty well (close enough so I am not gonna complain - it's cheap, and it's many amps in one, so you can't complain that it's not exactly the same as each one of them. Close enough for me to be happy). BUT! Here's the real difference. The dream rig product doesn't sound good AT ALL from the get-go. The presets were put together in a hurry by some drunken monkeys, and as soon as you start editing and switching amps you'll run into huge volume jumps and incorrect gain staging and stereo routing issues and preamp selections with or without cab modelling, cab choices, mics, and on and on.

 

If you look at it entirely the other way around, the dt25 and pod500hd combo is EXCELLENT at producing bad tones, bad levels, confusion, complexity and frustration, but tube amps suck at doing these things.

 

Line6 have not polished this into a smooth running, easy to use product. That's their decision, but it means that a large part of the tweaking and adjusting to get _ consistently_ good sounds has been sold to the consumer under a title of 'flexibility'. I'd be OK with that if they provided enough info in their manuals to actually understand the modelling processes and signal flows, but they didn't, which is my only gripe. If I am expected to do the job of sound designer for them, I need to actually understand the gear, not have to guess and 'use my ears' all the time. You need to use your brain too.


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#34 Stratman82

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:33 AM

I've been thinking a bit more about this.

 

One of the appeals of a 'real' tube amp is that it sounds good. Another factor is that it's pretty simple to operate, you turn it on, there's a few rough dials to choose your tone and off you go. 

 

But if you look a little closer at that picture, there is a LOT of work gone into the design of the amp to get it there. The values of every component has been carefully chosen so that the amp sounds nice. The circuit designs, and even each capacitor and resistor no doubt had it's value adjusted many times before settling on something. These are ALSO variables you could tweak, but since that tweaking requires soldering and high voltage electronics, it's generally not done. Plus, the designers have already tweaked these machines so much that they sound great from the start and further tweaking often would be detrimental...

 

Now, onto the dream rig. Yes, it's modelling the amps pretty well (close enough so I am not gonna complain - it's cheap, and it's many amps in one, so you can't complain that it's not exactly the same as each one of them. Close enough for me to be happy). BUT! Here's the real difference. The dream rig product doesn't sound good AT ALL from the get-go. The presets were put together in a hurry by some drunken monkeys, and as soon as you start editing and switching amps you'll run into huge volume jumps and incorrect gain staging and stereo routing issues and preamp selections with or without cab modelling, cab choices, mics, and on and on.

 

If you look at it entirely the other way around, the dt25 and pod500hd combo is EXCELLENT at producing bad tones, bad levels, confusion, complexity and frustration, but tube amps suck at doing these things.

 

Line6 have not polished this into a smooth running, easy to use product. That's their decision, but it means that a large part of the tweaking and adjusting to get _ consistently_ good sounds has been sold to the consumer under a title of 'flexibility'. I'd be OK with that if they provided enough info in their manuals to actually understand the modelling processes and signal flows, but they didn't, which is my only gripe. If I am expected to do the job of sound designer for them, I need to actually understand the gear, not have to guess and 'use my ears' all the time. You need to use your brain too.

 

Totally agree and I think this is largely what my (somewhat rambling) previous posts have been getting at.

 

I love the podHD500x as a standalone and think its a great piece of kit. Its complicated but if you standardise some parameters between your patches its not really that difficult to get great tones with "full amp" patches. Its what I expected having migrated over to podHD from the excellent podfarm software. I agree the native presets on the podHD models are dire.

 

Where this kit falls down for me is in conjunction with the DT25 which, despite others views, I have found to be quite glitchy, even in supposed "plug and play" low volume mode. I'm not a sound engineer/ tech and its just too difficult to get patches sounding "better" through the DT25's power section.

 

Yes the HD amp models were based on great real life classic amps, hence why the modelling in full amp mode sounds so good. But, IMO, adding a 1st generation hybrid tube amp into the equation with pre amp patches and all the gain stage and other parameters requiring adjustment is a step too far. I'd rather have Marshall, Orange, Fender etc do that for me when it comes to playing through a proper amplifier.


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#35 Stratman82

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:19 AM

Hhmmmm..... So your concern is it being outdated? Believe me I hardly doubt this amp will be outdated. I did my research before buying and there is nothing so mystical nor part so elusive in it that it won't be able to be fixed or repaired.

 

Really? Are you absolutely sure given the preamp is digitally modelled via software installed on the amp? I'd have my concerns....http://line6.com/sup...egacy-products/

 

That said, I'm sure a re-build would be possible if the worst happened down the line, but it wouldn't be the same amp.


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#36 oehman

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:47 AM

I've been watching this discussion go on, and resisted jumping in, but I guess it's time...

 

I think all of the included models in the DT25 standalone are fantastic with little tweaking. If someone were considering buying a DT25 and HD500, I would tell them not to if they didn't like the sound of the DT25 on its own. Adding the HD500 to the equation isn't going make you like the amp if you don't think it's great on its own. And the HD500 adds so many more options that you'll be chasing your tail looking for your magical tone.

The HD500 is a great recording device and probably 90% as good as recording the actual amps is simulates. The effects are also 90% as good as stomp effects, but at a fraction the cost and without the usual pedalboard hassles.

 

As for the DT25 becoming obsolete, it depends on how gear addicted you are. Every amp brand works to make their next amp the one that makes you wish you'd waited.

Marshall Plexi 100 owners probably wished they'd waited and bought a JCM800 for the high gain sound. Marshall Mode 4 was the answer when everyone wanted Mesa high gain, but the abilty to get the old Marshall tone too. Now Marshall has a 4 star rated amp  JVM 410H. Guess what - "it's versatilty is up there with the best and so are the tones". So when my Dt25 dies, I should be able to get another one for cheap because Line 6 will probably have crated 4 newer versions and the DT series will be old hat. And this forum will probably be full of complainers ranting about how Line 6 should have stuck with the DT voicings because they were so much better.

 

Now the original thread was about spending too much time tweaking and not enough time developing guitar skills. Seems to me ALOT of us are spending too much time reading and posting on a forum. I, for one, am going to resist the temptation and not read or post so I can figure out how to sing and play a Santana song.

After I check back and see how this post gets flamed.....no I won't...ok maybe just once..no don't...ok go ahead and read, but don't post...argghhh...


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#37 Stratman82

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:00 AM

Now the original thread was about spending too much time tweaking and not enough time developing guitar skills. Seems to me ALOT of us are spending too much time reading and posting on a forum. I, for one, am going to resist the temptation and not read or post so I can figure out how to sing and play a Santana song.

After I check back and see how this post gets flamed.....no I won't...ok maybe just once..no don't...ok go ahead and read, but don't post...argghhh...

 

Well said!!


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#38 Stratman82

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Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:53 AM

Cheers.

 

I suspect what I'll end up doing is (if I like the Orange as much as I hope) use that for loud use +/- attenuator.

 

For night-time, silent use through headphones I'll approximate the tone somehow with the HD500x and one of its amp models. Either that or I could take the direct out Orange signal from the attenuator in "Load" mode into the podHD (I think??) or into my Yamaha THR10.

 

Or mabye I'll prefer the DT/ Line 6 tone after all and sell the Orange....!

 

I'll post the outcome on this thread in the future so those that are interested may want to follow the topic.

 

Signing out.

T.

 

Ok so a kind of interim report I guess for those that are interested... I've got an OR15H now and still have the DT25 combo. I'm using the DT's speakers as a cab. Thats partly to save cost in the short term and partly so the cab speakers are a controlled variable.

 

My experience so far is based at whats possible at low to medium home level tones. I've not been able to crank up to gig volume.

 

Firstly, most will be pleased to hear that the DT25 stands up very well overall. The tones that come naturally to the Orange's single channel from edge of breakupo clean to AC/DC to Slash level gain are all present more or less across the DT's amp models.

 

I'd actually say that (without attenuator use) at very low, whisper quiet volumes the DT maintains its articulation a bit better than the Orange. Thats with the DT in full tube mode and the master volume down low. Articulation and clarity are similar when an attenuator is used and I can turn the volume pot on the Orange up a bit.

 

The Orange has a nice simple interface and I'd say it reacts better to volume knob changes on my guitars (Strat. Les Paul, FLying V) than the DT, in general. That means one option on the Orange is setting to the most gain I'd ever need (about 1-2o'clock) and using the volume knob for rollback. That is equivalent to switching between the Hendrix, AC/DC, Slash and Metallica patches on my podHD.

 

No reverb or effects on the OR15 (obviously), but there is an effects loop for the podHD or pedals. The effects loop is tube powered. The DT25 probably trumps in this area for those that use a lot of effects as the L6 link is a clean, single lead interface.

 

The tones per gain level which I can acheive with the Orange amp alone (as listed above) are equivalent to relatively complicated patches on the DT25 where I've had to use simulated pedals to acheive the tone I want. For example, an Angus Young tone is native to the Orange with gain set at about 12o'clock whereas I need to use a "tube drive" pedal with a JTM45 to acheive a similar tone with podHD patches. I've also found that in general reverb is less of a necessity with the Orange which has a natural ambience that fills the room in a way that can only be replicated by reverb on the DT. So Orange wins in these regards for being simple and requiring less digital trickery.

 

I'd also say that overall the Orange base tone is slightly more organic. Difficult to quantify I know...just a tad more "3D" with slightly better note separation. These sort of benefits, I guess, are always cited by the tube camp in tube vs digital debates. Again, difficult to objectively quantify but theres a difference there.

 

Overall theres not a lot in it. The DT25 wins for versatility when paired with a podHD. The DT25 alone is closer to the OR15H in terms of versatility. But the Orange loses on connectivity as it requires more cables to attach to the podHD via its effects loop and would require a 4CM for boost pedals before the preamp.

 

The Orange's more organic tone wins purely on sound.... it's got that visceral rock mojo that seems to go with British tube amps at louder volume. In that respect it could be considered a bit more "fun" to plug and play. Overall a 10-20% better tone if I absolutely had to qualntify it.

 

Mabye its a draw.......I'm seriously considering holding on to the DT25 as well now.... If I could choose just one though it would probably be the Orange (plus my podHD500x). You only live once.


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#39 Stratman82

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 06:53 AM

Actually, after further comparison at higher volumes I can honestly say that the DT25 just plain old isn't that great an amp overall. Sterile and lacking in fun factor compared to an amp from a classic amp manufacturer (like Fender and Orange). Not as touch responsive and dynamic, probably due to the modelled preamp. Just doesn't sound as good, bottom line.

 

As a 4 channel re-configurable amp the DT25 really isn't that versatile either- the OR15H  is single channel but the  4 gain stages  cycle through a spectrum of guitar music covering all the base tones of a factory set DT25 except pure clean Fender spank. But the DT25 with its EL84s doesn't exactly nail that tone either.

 

Some of the guff spouted on this forum about the DT25/50 is quite ridiculous. Yes the power section is to an extent reconfigurable but it doesn't magically switch its tubes into 6L6s or anything like that...at heart it's still a medium powered EL84 driven poweramp with a digitally modelled preamp.

 

We only live once.... is 80-90% as good tone and mabye 70% as good feel as the amp it's trying to emulate "fun" enough?? I agree its very practical for a gigging covers musician who needs to approximate famous tones at a pinch with one amp. I'd definately recommend the amp for that. But if its a hobby....for fun... then why not have one or two classic amps that are more "plug and play" and dont need digital modelling trickery and modelled overdrive pedal patches to get close to great tones? Part of the fun of a hobbyist guitarist is collecting bits and pieces of equipment, not having one amp that "does it all" moderately well.

 

My DT25 is up for sale.


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#40 boblaw

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 06:59 PM

immmm  close enough for jazz..   far too good for rock..  Shuddup and play yer gittar as FZ would say..  Sorry, but I really think talent is greater than gear..


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