Jump to content


Photo

Philosophy, Skill Aquisition And Why I'm Falling Out With My Dt25


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#21 ozbadman

ozbadman

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1689 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:44 AM

Concerned that my time mastering Line 6-specific software that will also be obsolete in time, yes.

 

There's very few parts of the JTV/HD500/DT25 combination that are Line 6 specific and not transferable so I guess I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's all just guitars, effects, and amps that happen to be models. Even HDEdit (apart from the EQ, but that's another story) just presents the effects to you on a computer screen in a very similar way to if you were actually twidding the knobs on the real units. To my way of thinking, there's very little gained knowledge that doesn't transfer, so I guess I don't understand your point or concern here.


  • 0

#22 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:48 AM

I totally agree with you in regards to these products most probably being redundant over the years. If future redundancy is an issue for you then fair enough. For now though, I'm happy to accept the benefits and limitations of the product as it stands today and also accept that I'll probably be on board for the next revision of these amps or even possibly something completely different if thats the path I chose.

 

I've owned a squillion amps over the years and the DT series are as good as any of them but for different reasons. For example a real Marshall Plexi sounds awesome but it needs to be CRANKED but my DT50 sounds great at almost any volume if I'm realistic about my expectations on it's performance based on different volumes permitted (home v's venue) FOR ME a guitar rig with good tone AND some flexibility is the go and I'm happy to 'settle' for a small sacrifice in tone authenticity for flexibility. I've A/B'd my rig with a real Plexi and I can say yes, there is a difference in tone to some extent but it's marginal and the DT still sounded KILLER, just a slightly different spin on that classic amp and besides, the Plexi cant sound anywhere near like a Rectifier at flick of a switch!!

 

You've said it yourself, it's not like the modelling isn't cutting it so again, your DT25 in triode mode is going to give you good 'tubey' tones at lower volumes at home with around 10 watts . If your playing really quite at home you need a 1 watt amp, seriously, and I'll explain why.

 

Your DT25 in Triode mode (10 watts) versus Pentode mode (25 watts) when turned up will actually only produce a marginal increase in volume - it will not literally double the volume. What its does is increase or decrease headroom which in turn 'pushes' or 'relaxes' the power stage. (relaxes isn't quite right but ....)  e.g. If you wanted a pushed clean tone run it at 10 watts and if you wanted a pure clean tone with no breakup run it at 25 watts.

 

To get 6dB gain (double volume) you need TEN TIMES the wattage!! So in theory if you weren't happy with the results with the DT25 in triode mode then maybe you do need to look at something else or experiment with your attenuator further.

 

Lets be honest, I really doubt your going to keep ANY amp for 20 to 30 years thats going to cover all the tones all of the time as your musical pallet evolves. If you could then my hat off to ya!  :D

 

I'm sure the tones are in there mate!

 

I agree with every word of this, very well put.

 

Its not just the "tone" issue its overall complexity, over-tweakability, future redundancy ect. too. I'm not as experienced as you with amps so mabye I just haven't been through enough trial and error to feel satisfied. I certainly think a lot of people write-off this sort of kit in ignorance without even trying (or hearing) it and I'm not one of those!

 

I think ultimately there is no absolute right or wrong answer here, just what works for individuals under individual circumstances. Of all my amp related kit the podHD500x  is the last thing I'd sell, no doubt!

 

I bought an OR15H this morning. I'll A/B it against the DT and make a final, properly informed decision on which amp to keep. Thats the best I can do.


  • 0

#23 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:51 AM

There's very few parts of the JTV/HD500/DT25 combination that are Line 6 specific and not transferable so I guess I don't understand what you're getting at here. It's all just guitars, effects, and amps that happen to be models. Even HDEdit (apart from the EQ, but that's another story) just presents the effects to you on a computer screen in a very similar way to if you were actually twidding the knobs on the real units. To my way of thinking, there's very little gained knowledge that doesn't transfer, so I guess I don't understand your point or concern here.

 

Fair enough!


  • 0

#24 mribanezmetal

mribanezmetal

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 33 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:58 AM

 

Its not just the "tone" issue its overall complexity, over-tweakability, future redundancy ect. too. I'm not as experienced as you with amps so mabye I just haven't been through enough trial and error to feel satisfied. I certainly think a lot of people write-off this sort of kit in ignorance without even trying (or hearing) it and I'm not one of those!

 

I think ultimately there is no absolute right or wrong answer here, just what works for individuals under individual circumstances. Of all my amp related kit the podHD500x  is the last thing I'd sell, no doubt!

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more with your comments here and I understand completely. Sounds like you need to go on that journey of discovery for yourself and come to your own conclusions and I totally get that.

 

Let us know how you go! I'm curious too! 


  • 0

#25 ozbadman

ozbadman

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1689 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:13 AM

Its not just the "tone" issue its overall complexity, over-tweakability, future redundancy ect. too.

 

Ahh. Yes, it's definitely a complex system in terms of the number of options available to you. Given the breadth of coverage Line 6 gives, I think they've done a remarkable job of reducing the complexity. I also have an AxeFX and that thing is layers of tweakability. Very, very complicated.

 

But yeah, if it's overwhelming you end up learning nothing. Forests, trees, and all that.

 

I bought an OR15H this morning. I'll A/B it against the DT and make a final, properly informed decision on which amp to keep. Thats the best I can do.

 

I hope your Orange suits your needs better.

 

Good Luck in your search.


  • 0

#26 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:30 AM

Ahh. Yes, it's definitely a complex system in terms of the number of options available to you. Given the breadth of coverage Line 6 gives, I think they've done a remarkable job of reducing the complexity. I also have an AxeFX and that thing is layers of tweakability. Very, very complicated.

 

But yeah, if it's overwhelming you end up learning nothing. Forests, trees, and all that.

 

 

I hope your Orange suits your needs better.

 

Good Luck in your search.

 

Cheers.

 

I suspect what I'll end up doing is (if I like the Orange as much as I hope) use that for loud use +/- attenuator.

 

For night-time, silent use through headphones I'll approximate the tone somehow with the HD500x and one of its amp models. Either that or I could take the direct out Orange signal from the attenuator in "Load" mode into the podHD (I think??) or into my Yamaha THR10.

 

Or mabye I'll prefer the DT/ Line 6 tone after all and sell the Orange....!

 

I'll post the outcome on this thread in the future so those that are interested may want to follow the topic.

 

Signing out.

T.


  • 0

#27 Metalchef

Metalchef

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 154 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:38 AM

Hhmmmm..... So your concern is it being outdated? Believe me I hardly doubt this amp will be outdated. I did my research before buying and there is nothing so mystical nor part so elusive in it that it won't be able to be fixed or repaired. My thoughts on that are this.... People who are considered guitar god are playing through 40yr old Marshalls I've seen some through what looks like an Ancient Sumarian Fender combo. It's a general consensus that a lot of these amps get better with age. So I am not the least bit concerned about it being dated because even if your fear of no updates happens I'm still completely satisfied with the way things are now. I play sometimes using my stomp boxes and it sounds incredible as well. So I have and have no fear of using this Amp stand alone without the POD. I can agree that we could use a couple more Amps but right now with what we have I can get any sound that pops in my head. I have a gear lollipop friend who has bought and sold more gear than I've seen music stores stock trying to sound exactly like EVH and I find that a lot like chasing your tail. He is never going to sound exactly like EVH because he's not EVH. And I now torture him every time he calls me to come over and listen to his rig by telling him " mmmnnaaahhh you were closer with the Plexi and MXR phaser you had 17 amps ago.) so I guess before my early morning ramble (thank you wake and bake) I was trying to say that at some point in our crazy tone search you got to learn to like what you have. This rig gets me my tones that I use for my music and can get me as close as possible to any artist tone I have ever wanted to emulate. What was the topic of discussion again???? :-P
  • 0
Yes I hear the cries of the carrots.... For it is harvest day and to them it is the Holocaust..... So I say let the rabbits wear glasses....

#28 innovine

innovine

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 218 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 06:59 AM

I guess using the DT25 without the POD works well but I don't see how you are saving any amount of tweaking. You only have two choices, A or B, but every change requires you to reset your drive, tone stack, channel volume, etc... and you still have to play with it till you find the one you like.

'every change recuires you to'.. exactly. which means I rarely change it any more :)

I can dial in my tone on the amp without it even being turned on. The simplicity of the controls is very nice. With the pod connected, I find I add more effects, experience different gain staging, with different eqs to fine tune, etc etc

In the end I think this is bad. It leads me into endless tone chasing rather than playing. The simple and restricted options on the amp lead me to being happy with 'close enough', and I appreciate not being tempted to add an eq or something forea tiny betterment. I settle for less, because less is often more. More time to get the magic from the fingers, as you pointed out.

I agree with radatat that the flexibility is amazing, but its also a horrible distraction. I don't need to tweak my patches for each song, or each verse. That way madness lies. Each to their own of course, but I've found that the dream rig flexibility is bad. Get two or three good tones and make do with that, stop fiddling around. OP is just caught in tone chasing, exasperated by the options available.

When I got my gear, I wasn't really sure what tone I was after, so playing with ¨e different amp models was very educational. Now I'm settled on two. And if I get bored I can find some more. But its important to limit myself. I uninstalled the firmware upgrade for the same reasons.
  • 1

#29 stumblinman

stumblinman

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 434 posts
  • LocationPacific Northwest

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:17 AM

I have my 4 "go-to" tones saved for my gigs, but I still build others for fun. I have a great brown sound saved, as well as a "High and Dry" era Def Leppard tone, and I'm currently working on that OR15 tone.
I will never use these as "my" tone, but they are fun to noodle with. My band mates love to use them when we are just messing around and jamming. All the tweaking helps me improve and learn just what makes certain amps and signal chains sound good, great, or godlike. The skill of using your ears to improve your tone will never become obsolete, regardless of your gear.

I have my tone, and if my Line 6 gear breaks, I will probably buy another or the next new thing by someone else that gives me my sound. My loyalty is only to my ear, not my gear.
  • 2

#30 geppert

geppert

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts
  • LocationRetirementville, Canada

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:04 AM

......  My loyalty is only to my ear, not my gear.

 

Couldn't agree more.


  • 0

#31 radatats

radatats

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 688 posts
  • LocationOrange County, NY

Posted 16 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

My loyalty is only to my ear, not my gear.

That is the essence of what I was trying to say about "back in the day"...  When all you had was a second hand amp and a beat up guitar with a pedal or two If you were lucky... there was no internet, no youtube, no detailed endless discussions of the nuances of plexi vs rectifier and you used your ears and imagination to try to find a tone anywhere near what you were hearing on vinyl...  you just turned it up and went for it.  We made the most of what we had and it was enough!

I totally agree about neverending tweaking to try and exactly duplicate someone elses tones.  FORGET IT!  Start with an amp model and no effects and set it in the middle across the board.  Then, one at a time adjust the tone knobs and the gain till you know exactly what they do for you and it SOUNDS right to YOU. Find a few amps that YOU like for different styles of music and learn what the knobs do.  That is what we had to do back in the day because there was nobody posting on the 'net giving advice.  When you get what you want, save it and it is always there to come back to.

As for learning transferable skills?  You can't realistically play with sag, hum, bias, cab resonance, etc. with regular tube gear... but it is nice to know what those are and what they do.  When you get a basic amp tone you like, take a weekend and just play with those settings, one at a time and LISTEN to what they do.  Once you can hear it, that skill will never leave you.  You will know what the effect of sag is on a real amplifier in AUDIBLE terms. They modeled real amps so treat your models like real amps. Forget multiple eq's and distortion, just get good basic amp tones without any additions.  You CAN do it...

When you have all that down (and it really doesn't take that long) you will have a pool of GREAT amps to choose from that don't need tweaking and fiddling with that you have created with your own EARS and your own gear.  Now you need to do the same process with your effects.  I certainly don't use or like all of them but I know exactly what they do for my EARS now.  I know the difference between a blue or red comp, and a tube comp.  And I treat my effect chain just as if it was a real one for placement and order, pre and post.  I have a couple of mods I like and some delays and reverbs.  I don't use them all but I know what they SOUND like and when to add them.  Do the same thing with your effects one at a time and save the settings you like in a new patch.  When you are done you will have a pool of GREAT amps and GREAT effects to use and your constant tweaking can stop.  DO NOT OVER COMPLICATE THINGS...  In real life, some of my favorite players have the simplest of rigs and sound amazing.  I strive for the same in my patches. I don't use multiple EQ's and gain stages.  I use minimal effects and only when I need them for a particular sound.

Finally, it's not just the amp or the modeler.  You need a decent guitar with good pickups, good cables and really good cabs/speakers.  My favorite patches may not sound worth a damn on your rig and vice versa.  Get the best you can afford for the hardware and the software will make them shine.

If you can't do that with this piece of gear, sad to say you probably won't be able to do it with the real thing either but you will be shelling out a lot of cash in the chase...  In the end it really isn't the gear, it's US. We CHOOSE to fiddle or play.  We CHOOSE to chase the tone.  We CHOOSE to just appreciate what we have, to play and just LISTEN to it...

Now let's see what new gear is on ZZounds today... LOL...


  • 0

l6+sig+pic-1.png   


#32 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 16 October 2013 - 12:19 PM

Ok, like a true hypocritical turncoat I knocked up a patch to try and emulate the (Les Paul) tone in the Andertons Orange OR15H demo video that I've been salivating over....

 

Made playing my Les Paul Studio, bridge pickup.

 

Patch link here: http://line6.com/cus...ne/tone/239945/

 

Andertons video here: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-gz60KS64pU

 

Did I get close?!


  • 0

#33 innovine

innovine

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 218 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 12:50 AM

I've been thinking a bit more about this.

 

One of the appeals of a 'real' tube amp is that it sounds good. Another factor is that it's pretty simple to operate, you turn it on, there's a few rough dials to choose your tone and off you go. 

 

But if you look a little closer at that picture, there is a LOT of work gone into the design of the amp to get it there. The values of every component has been carefully chosen so that the amp sounds nice. The circuit designs, and even each capacitor and resistor no doubt had it's value adjusted many times before settling on something. These are ALSO variables you could tweak, but since that tweaking requires soldering and high voltage electronics, it's generally not done. Plus, the designers have already tweaked these machines so much that they sound great from the start and further tweaking often would be detrimental...

 

Now, onto the dream rig. Yes, it's modelling the amps pretty well (close enough so I am not gonna complain - it's cheap, and it's many amps in one, so you can't complain that it's not exactly the same as each one of them. Close enough for me to be happy). BUT! Here's the real difference. The dream rig product doesn't sound good AT ALL from the get-go. The presets were put together in a hurry by some drunken monkeys, and as soon as you start editing and switching amps you'll run into huge volume jumps and incorrect gain staging and stereo routing issues and preamp selections with or without cab modelling, cab choices, mics, and on and on.

 

If you look at it entirely the other way around, the dt25 and pod500hd combo is EXCELLENT at producing bad tones, bad levels, confusion, complexity and frustration, but tube amps suck at doing these things.

 

Line6 have not polished this into a smooth running, easy to use product. That's their decision, but it means that a large part of the tweaking and adjusting to get _ consistently_ good sounds has been sold to the consumer under a title of 'flexibility'. I'd be OK with that if they provided enough info in their manuals to actually understand the modelling processes and signal flows, but they didn't, which is my only gripe. If I am expected to do the job of sound designer for them, I need to actually understand the gear, not have to guess and 'use my ears' all the time. You need to use your brain too.


  • 1

#34 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 01:33 AM

I've been thinking a bit more about this.

 

One of the appeals of a 'real' tube amp is that it sounds good. Another factor is that it's pretty simple to operate, you turn it on, there's a few rough dials to choose your tone and off you go. 

 

But if you look a little closer at that picture, there is a LOT of work gone into the design of the amp to get it there. The values of every component has been carefully chosen so that the amp sounds nice. The circuit designs, and even each capacitor and resistor no doubt had it's value adjusted many times before settling on something. These are ALSO variables you could tweak, but since that tweaking requires soldering and high voltage electronics, it's generally not done. Plus, the designers have already tweaked these machines so much that they sound great from the start and further tweaking often would be detrimental...

 

Now, onto the dream rig. Yes, it's modelling the amps pretty well (close enough so I am not gonna complain - it's cheap, and it's many amps in one, so you can't complain that it's not exactly the same as each one of them. Close enough for me to be happy). BUT! Here's the real difference. The dream rig product doesn't sound good AT ALL from the get-go. The presets were put together in a hurry by some drunken monkeys, and as soon as you start editing and switching amps you'll run into huge volume jumps and incorrect gain staging and stereo routing issues and preamp selections with or without cab modelling, cab choices, mics, and on and on.

 

If you look at it entirely the other way around, the dt25 and pod500hd combo is EXCELLENT at producing bad tones, bad levels, confusion, complexity and frustration, but tube amps suck at doing these things.

 

Line6 have not polished this into a smooth running, easy to use product. That's their decision, but it means that a large part of the tweaking and adjusting to get _ consistently_ good sounds has been sold to the consumer under a title of 'flexibility'. I'd be OK with that if they provided enough info in their manuals to actually understand the modelling processes and signal flows, but they didn't, which is my only gripe. If I am expected to do the job of sound designer for them, I need to actually understand the gear, not have to guess and 'use my ears' all the time. You need to use your brain too.

 

Totally agree and I think this is largely what my (somewhat rambling) previous posts have been getting at.

 

I love the podHD500x as a standalone and think its a great piece of kit. Its complicated but if you standardise some parameters between your patches its not really that difficult to get great tones with "full amp" patches. Its what I expected having migrated over to podHD from the excellent podfarm software. I agree the native presets on the podHD models are dire.

 

Where this kit falls down for me is in conjunction with the DT25 which, despite others views, I have found to be quite glitchy, even in supposed "plug and play" low volume mode. I'm not a sound engineer/ tech and its just too difficult to get patches sounding "better" through the DT25's power section.

 

Yes the HD amp models were based on great real life classic amps, hence why the modelling in full amp mode sounds so good. But, IMO, adding a 1st generation hybrid tube amp into the equation with pre amp patches and all the gain stage and other parameters requiring adjustment is a step too far. I'd rather have Marshall, Orange, Fender etc do that for me when it comes to playing through a proper amplifier.


  • 0

#35 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:19 AM

Hhmmmm..... So your concern is it being outdated? Believe me I hardly doubt this amp will be outdated. I did my research before buying and there is nothing so mystical nor part so elusive in it that it won't be able to be fixed or repaired.

 

Really? Are you absolutely sure given the preamp is digitally modelled via software installed on the amp? I'd have my concerns....http://line6.com/sup...egacy-products/

 

That said, I'm sure a re-build would be possible if the worst happened down the line, but it wouldn't be the same amp.


  • 0

#36 oehman

oehman

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 65 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 05:47 AM

I've been watching this discussion go on, and resisted jumping in, but I guess it's time...

 

I think all of the included models in the DT25 standalone are fantastic with little tweaking. If someone were considering buying a DT25 and HD500, I would tell them not to if they didn't like the sound of the DT25 on its own. Adding the HD500 to the equation isn't going make you like the amp if you don't think it's great on its own. And the HD500 adds so many more options that you'll be chasing your tail looking for your magical tone.

The HD500 is a great recording device and probably 90% as good as recording the actual amps is simulates. The effects are also 90% as good as stomp effects, but at a fraction the cost and without the usual pedalboard hassles.

 

As for the DT25 becoming obsolete, it depends on how gear addicted you are. Every amp brand works to make their next amp the one that makes you wish you'd waited.

Marshall Plexi 100 owners probably wished they'd waited and bought a JCM800 for the high gain sound. Marshall Mode 4 was the answer when everyone wanted Mesa high gain, but the abilty to get the old Marshall tone too. Now Marshall has a 4 star rated amp  JVM 410H. Guess what - "it's versatilty is up there with the best and so are the tones". So when my Dt25 dies, I should be able to get another one for cheap because Line 6 will probably have crated 4 newer versions and the DT series will be old hat. And this forum will probably be full of complainers ranting about how Line 6 should have stuck with the DT voicings because they were so much better.

 

Now the original thread was about spending too much time tweaking and not enough time developing guitar skills. Seems to me ALOT of us are spending too much time reading and posting on a forum. I, for one, am going to resist the temptation and not read or post so I can figure out how to sing and play a Santana song.

After I check back and see how this post gets flamed.....no I won't...ok maybe just once..no don't...ok go ahead and read, but don't post...argghhh...


  • 0

#37 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:00 AM

Now the original thread was about spending too much time tweaking and not enough time developing guitar skills. Seems to me ALOT of us are spending too much time reading and posting on a forum. I, for one, am going to resist the temptation and not read or post so I can figure out how to sing and play a Santana song.

After I check back and see how this post gets flamed.....no I won't...ok maybe just once..no don't...ok go ahead and read, but don't post...argghhh...

 

Well said!!


  • 0

#38 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 19 October 2013 - 05:53 AM

Cheers.

 

I suspect what I'll end up doing is (if I like the Orange as much as I hope) use that for loud use +/- attenuator.

 

For night-time, silent use through headphones I'll approximate the tone somehow with the HD500x and one of its amp models. Either that or I could take the direct out Orange signal from the attenuator in "Load" mode into the podHD (I think??) or into my Yamaha THR10.

 

Or mabye I'll prefer the DT/ Line 6 tone after all and sell the Orange....!

 

I'll post the outcome on this thread in the future so those that are interested may want to follow the topic.

 

Signing out.

T.

 

Ok so a kind of interim report I guess for those that are interested... I've got an OR15H now and still have the DT25 combo. I'm using the DT's speakers as a cab. Thats partly to save cost in the short term and partly so the cab speakers are a controlled variable.

 

My experience so far is based at whats possible at low to medium home level tones. I've not been able to crank up to gig volume.

 

Firstly, most will be pleased to hear that the DT25 stands up very well overall. The tones that come naturally to the Orange's single channel from edge of breakupo clean to AC/DC to Slash level gain are all present more or less across the DT's amp models.

 

I'd actually say that (without attenuator use) at very low, whisper quiet volumes the DT maintains its articulation a bit better than the Orange. Thats with the DT in full tube mode and the master volume down low. Articulation and clarity are similar when an attenuator is used and I can turn the volume pot on the Orange up a bit.

 

The Orange has a nice simple interface and I'd say it reacts better to volume knob changes on my guitars (Strat. Les Paul, FLying V) than the DT, in general. That means one option on the Orange is setting to the most gain I'd ever need (about 1-2o'clock) and using the volume knob for rollback. That is equivalent to switching between the Hendrix, AC/DC, Slash and Metallica patches on my podHD.

 

No reverb or effects on the OR15 (obviously), but there is an effects loop for the podHD or pedals. The effects loop is tube powered. The DT25 probably trumps in this area for those that use a lot of effects as the L6 link is a clean, single lead interface.

 

The tones per gain level which I can acheive with the Orange amp alone (as listed above) are equivalent to relatively complicated patches on the DT25 where I've had to use simulated pedals to acheive the tone I want. For example, an Angus Young tone is native to the Orange with gain set at about 12o'clock whereas I need to use a "tube drive" pedal with a JTM45 to acheive a similar tone with podHD patches. I've also found that in general reverb is less of a necessity with the Orange which has a natural ambience that fills the room in a way that can only be replicated by reverb on the DT. So Orange wins in these regards for being simple and requiring less digital trickery.

 

I'd also say that overall the Orange base tone is slightly more organic. Difficult to quantify I know...just a tad more "3D" with slightly better note separation. These sort of benefits, I guess, are always cited by the tube camp in tube vs digital debates. Again, difficult to objectively quantify but theres a difference there.

 

Overall theres not a lot in it. The DT25 wins for versatility when paired with a podHD. The DT25 alone is closer to the OR15H in terms of versatility. But the Orange loses on connectivity as it requires more cables to attach to the podHD via its effects loop and would require a 4CM for boost pedals before the preamp.

 

The Orange's more organic tone wins purely on sound.... it's got that visceral rock mojo that seems to go with British tube amps at louder volume. In that respect it could be considered a bit more "fun" to plug and play. Overall a 10-20% better tone if I absolutely had to qualntify it.

 

Mabye its a draw.......I'm seriously considering holding on to the DT25 as well now.... If I could choose just one though it would probably be the Orange (plus my podHD500x). You only live once.


  • 1

#39 Stratman82

Stratman82

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 105 posts

Posted 26 October 2013 - 06:53 AM

Actually, after further comparison at higher volumes I can honestly say that the DT25 just plain old isn't that great an amp overall. Sterile and lacking in fun factor compared to an amp from a classic amp manufacturer (like Fender and Orange). Not as touch responsive and dynamic, probably due to the modelled preamp. Just doesn't sound as good, bottom line.

 

As a 4 channel re-configurable amp the DT25 really isn't that versatile either- the OR15H  is single channel but the  4 gain stages  cycle through a spectrum of guitar music covering all the base tones of a factory set DT25 except pure clean Fender spank. But the DT25 with its EL84s doesn't exactly nail that tone either.

 

Some of the guff spouted on this forum about the DT25/50 is quite ridiculous. Yes the power section is to an extent reconfigurable but it doesn't magically switch its tubes into 6L6s or anything like that...at heart it's still a medium powered EL84 driven poweramp with a digitally modelled preamp.

 

We only live once.... is 80-90% as good tone and mabye 70% as good feel as the amp it's trying to emulate "fun" enough?? I agree its very practical for a gigging covers musician who needs to approximate famous tones at a pinch with one amp. I'd definately recommend the amp for that. But if its a hobby....for fun... then why not have one or two classic amps that are more "plug and play" and dont need digital modelling trickery and modelled overdrive pedal patches to get close to great tones? Part of the fun of a hobbyist guitarist is collecting bits and pieces of equipment, not having one amp that "does it all" moderately well.

 

My DT25 is up for sale.


  • 0

#40 boblaw

boblaw

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 16 posts

Posted 29 October 2013 - 06:59 PM

immmm  close enough for jazz..   far too good for rock..  Shuddup and play yer gittar as FZ would say..  Sorry, but I really think talent is greater than gear..


  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users