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Hd500 Amp Pre Vs. Full Models


Best Answer phil_m , 15 October 2013 - 09:16 AM

So I think what you're experiencing might have something to do with how the POD handles a single input with a dual tone. If you just using Tone A set to Variax, Tone B is essentially being muted if you have it set to Guitar. So that signal comes and when it hits the split, it essentially gets halved with one side going to the amp model in Path A and the other in Path B. So the signal going to the Pre model is attenuated versus what you're sending to the DT25 when you switch the amp in Tone A off. Try setting Input 2 to "Same" and see if the sounds are any closer. It should give you a hotter signal going into the Pre model. It will increase the signal going into Path B as well now that I think of it, but there may be no way around it.

 

Essentially, even though the preamp models in the HD500 and DT25 are the same, the signal paths going to and from them can be made to be different. I think you may have stumbled onto one of those times where this becomes apparent.

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#1 oehman

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:24 AM

I did a comparison last night with the models on the DT25 in standalone, versus the models in the HD500.

With the Park 75 Pre (not the full model with power-amp sim) , the HD500 just doesn't have the same amount of gain as the DT25 in standalone. Even with the drive cranked, it just doesn't have that ooomph.

So I changed the amp to the full version and - wow - that's more like it.

 

When I originally set up the Park and Marshalls, I used the Pre versions in the HD500. And they just didn't have enough of that Marshall gain. Even with the drive maxxed, I still had to add a tube screamer block in front to get enough gain, especially for leads versus rhythm sounds.

 

I'm not talking about a ton of gain. I had tried to get a "Jimmy Page Heartbreaker" tone using the Plexi Lead 100 Pre with the drive at 100% and still needed a Tube Screamer to get close. But I switched to the full model, and I was able to back the drive down and POW! there is is. I had the master volume on DT25 at about 75% and the channel volume pretty low.

 

I know it is documented that the voicing of the models in DT25 are based on the Pre versions in the HD500, but after making this comparison, I'm not so sure!

 

I will probably leave my clean amp presets alone. But I think all of the Marshalls sound so much better using the full versions in the HD500. The JTM45 full is pure AC/DC crunch and I never got that out of the Pre voicing.

 

 

 

 


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#2 phil_m

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:40 AM

How do you have your input set on the HD500?


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#3 Metalchef

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:47 AM

I run an Hd 500 into a DT 50 2x12 and I am usually in low volume mode as I like My internal organs where they are. One thing my ears have noticed is that it also sounds better in LVM using full amps AND changing output back to studio Direct.. As they say there is no wrong answer which is freaking awesome. It leaves u with so many choices and look at it this way some of the most iconic tones came from what was thought to be at the time she off the wall rigs and crazy signal routing. It's my opinion that if you can't get 4 basic tones that kickass out of this thing you haven't explored enough.
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#4 BigChas52

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 06:52 AM

Oehman & Metalchef . . . How are you connecting the HD500 to your DT's.  Are you using L6Link?


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#5 phil_m

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 07:04 AM

One thing my ears have noticed is that it also sounds better in LVM using full amps AND changing output back to studio Direct.

 

 

You might know this already, but if you change the DT25 to LVM, the models in your tone actually change to the full models. You don't have to actually change the amp model in the POD.


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#6 oehman

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:23 AM

I am running JTV via VDI cable into HD500. Then L6 link into DT25. The HD500 detects the DT25 and changes the output mode to match. The DT25 is in full volume mode.
I selected a New Tone in the HD500 and chose the Park Pre. Then I matched the drive and tone settings in voice 2 of the DT25 channel B.
Turning the amp block on & off in the HD500 toggles the Dt25 back $ forth from channel A &B.
There was definetly more drive on channel B.

Anything I could be missing here?
The only other factor might be the default mixer setting in the HD500 New Tone preset?

I'll try to experiment a little more tonight.
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#7 phil_m

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:46 AM

Anything I could be missing here?
The only other factor might be the default mixer setting in the HD500 New Tone preset?

 

 

So how do you have the inputs set up? Do you have the input for Tone B set to "same" or do you have it muted?


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#8 oehman

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:05 AM

Input 1 Source: Variax
Input 2 Source: Guitar

Guitar in - Z: Auto
Inputs Set up: Global

The defaults in the mixer are panned 100% for Volume A and Volume B. When creating presets, I usually pan them 33% and get a little more output. But for my comparison last night I left them at the default.
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#9 phil_m

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 09:16 AM   Best Answer

So I think what you're experiencing might have something to do with how the POD handles a single input with a dual tone. If you just using Tone A set to Variax, Tone B is essentially being muted if you have it set to Guitar. So that signal comes and when it hits the split, it essentially gets halved with one side going to the amp model in Path A and the other in Path B. So the signal going to the Pre model is attenuated versus what you're sending to the DT25 when you switch the amp in Tone A off. Try setting Input 2 to "Same" and see if the sounds are any closer. It should give you a hotter signal going into the Pre model. It will increase the signal going into Path B as well now that I think of it, but there may be no way around it.

 

Essentially, even though the preamp models in the HD500 and DT25 are the same, the signal paths going to and from them can be made to be different. I think you may have stumbled onto one of those times where this becomes apparent.


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#10 oehman

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:06 PM

Hot Damn you are correct!

I had read in the MeAmBobbo guide that setting input 2 to Same caused noise or combing filtering problems. He suggested using
Input 1: Guitar
Input 2:Variax

To cut noise and prevent signal overload when not using a Dual Amp setup.


I changed the inputs to
Input1: Variax
Input 2: Same

And now the Park Pre is really close to the Park in the DT25.


Can't wait to try out the other Marshall models with this setting!
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#11 Metalchef

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 02:25 PM

I'm running my Pod T Dt50 2x12 via L6link.
Gibson LP Zakk Wylde w EMG 81/85
Squier Strat w/GF Texas Special - ish HSS
Then Pod hd500 into DT50 2x12 via L6link

Settings are
Studio Direct on LVM
Impedance is set at -1m

I can usually get away with not having to touch the mixer settings

Input 1-guitar
Input 2- variax

There is quite a noticeable difference in oomph of the pre's when in LVM

Now notice these are my LVM settings. It's a whole different ball game when I push the volume knob back in that's when this set up shines in my opinion. This is when I switch back to Combo Pwr amp instead of studio direct mode. Now there are conflicting threads all very the place about the mode and whether or not to use the Cab Sims or turn them off. Here is what I agree with

Leave the CAB ON AND ON ITS DEFAULT SELECTION IF YOU WANT THE CLOSEST EMULATION OF SAID AMP MODEL. they are eqed but rightfully so. I've tried wit them off and wasn't satisfied by any means.

And my last bit of advice is Use YOUR ears to dial things in because all this wisdom is subjective and that's what kicks lollipop. Also to me a lot of the complaints about compressors and distortions and some effects being too much or not sounding as they should are null and void when u connect to a DT. This amp was made to be a sounding board for this POD and Meambobbo and his tone guide are a ton of help but only use them as the great guidelines they are but most parameters will not apply to a DT setup.
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#12 stumblinman

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 08:47 AM

I'm running my Pod T Dt50 2x12 via L6link.
Gibson LP Zakk Wylde w EMG 81/85
Squier Strat w/GF Texas Special - ish HSS
Then Pod hd500 into DT50 2x12 via L6link

Settings are
Studio Direct on LVM
Impedance is set at -1m

I can usually get away with not having to touch the mixer settings

Input 1-guitar
Input 2- variax

There is quite a noticeable difference in oomph of the pre's when in LVM

Now notice these are my LVM settings. It's a whole different ball game when I push the volume knob back in that's when this set up shines in my opinion. This is when I switch back to Combo Pwr amp instead of studio direct mode. Now there are conflicting threads all very the place about the mode and whether or not to use the Cab Sims or turn them off. Here is what I agree with

Leave the CAB ON AND ON ITS DEFAULT SELECTION IF YOU WANT THE CLOSEST EMULATION OF SAID AMP MODEL. they are eqed but rightfully so. I've tried wit them off and wasn't satisfied by any means.

And my last bit of advice is Use YOUR ears to dial things in because all this wisdom is subjective and that's what kicks lollipop. Also to me a lot of the complaints about compressors and distortions and some effects being too much or not sounding as they should are null and void when u connect to a DT. This amp was made to be a sounding board for this POD and Meambobbo and his tone guide are a ton of help but only use them as the great guidelines they are but most parameters will not apply to a DT setup.

The one thing I took from meambobbo's guide as a live player using HD500 into DT25, not a home recorder, is the idea of pre and post amp EQ to really shape your distortion and final tone. The insane amount of diversity you can get out of a single amp model just by shaping frequencies in and out of the amp is stellar.

I used to only use a post amp EQ for final sculpting of my tones, but shaping that signal coming in really lets you choose what dirt tones you want. It's a great guide if you pick what you need out of it, and I applaud Bob for his efforts.
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#13 Metalchef

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:03 AM

The one thing I took from meambobbo's guide as a live player using HD500 into DT25, not a home recorder, is the idea of pre and post amp EQ to really shape your distortion and final tone. The insane amount of diversity you can get out of a single amp model just by shaping frequencies in and out of the amp is stellar.
I used to only use a post amp EQ for final sculpting of my tones, but shaping that signal coming in really lets you choose what dirt tones you want. It's a great guide if you pick what you need out of it, and I applaud Bob for his efforts.


There are other good sections to read. Especially guitar setup and gain staging and such.... But I agree the biggest is his use of Eq but what I found was I really don't require any more than what the amp offered or maybe occasional Dist/Overdrive box. I am currently fiddling with the Fuzz boxes. I've been able to get a good David Gilmour wall era tone pushing the Muff with a tube driver. And have had satisfactory comparison on both the Hiwatt and Blackface. (until you raise the gain on the amp anywhere close to break up then it changes). I can't even fathom the concept of ever selling this rig.
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#14 Stratman82

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:35 PM

I did a comparison last night with the models on the DT25 in standalone, versus the models in the HD500.
With the Park 75 Pre (not the full model with power-amp sim) , the HD500 just doesn't have the same amount of gain as the DT25 in standalone. Even with the drive cranked, it just doesn't have that ooomph.
So I changed the amp to the full version and - wow - that's more like it.
 
When I originally set up the Park and Marshalls, I used the Pre versions in the HD500. And they just didn't have enough of that Marshall gain. Even with the drive maxxed, I still had to add a tube screamer block in front to get enough gain, especially for leads versus rhythm sounds.
 
I'm not talking about a ton of gain. I had tried to get a "Jimmy Page Heartbreaker" tone using the Plexi Lead 100 Pre with the drive at 100% and still needed a Tube Screamer to get close. But I switched to the full model, and I was able to back the drive down and POW! there is is. I had the master volume on DT25 at about 75% and the channel volume pretty low.
 
I know it is documented that the voicing of the models in DT25 are based on the Pre versions in the HD500, but after making this comparison, I'm not so sure!
 
I will probably leave my clean amp presets alone. But I think all of the Marshalls sound so much better using the full versions in the HD500. The JTM45 full is pure AC/DC crunch and I never got that out of the Pre voicing.


I've had the same experience in that generally I'm happier with the DT25s tones/ response/ predictability with full amp patches either in LVM or full power mode.

I put a similar thread up about this recently and most seemed to disagree.

As far as I can tell from these forums it seems that no one (mabye not even Line 6) is entirely sure how the DT25s power tubes are being utilised and influencing tone with full amp patches in full volume mode. If they're not active at all and it still sounds better then there's little point in playing through a tube amp!
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#15 Stratman82

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 11:41 PM

You might know this already, but if you change the DT25 to LVM, the models in your tone actually change to the full models. You don't have to actually change the amp model in the POD.


Are you absolutely certain about this?

As per my reply above the DT25 in LVM, to my ears, more authentically emulates my full amp patches (as heard via pod alone) when fed full amp patches...
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#16 phil_m

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 06:16 AM

Are you absolutely certain about this?

As per my reply above the DT25 in LVM, to my ears, more authentically emulates my full amp patches (as heard via pod alone) when fed full amp patches...

 

 

Yes, I'm certain... In LVM, the power amp and cab modeling is turned on in the DT25 itself... I guess I should clarify is that nothing in the POD is changed when you switch the DT25 to LVM. It's just that the amp model is "filled out" in a way in the DT25 itself when you switch to LVM.


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#17 radatats

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:31 AM

Let's be clear, the DT-25 has a tube power section.  There is no solid state AMPLIFICATION in this sucker.  The tubes are ALWAYS being used for output power.  As I understand it, the only things that change in LVM relate to the signal being applied to the power section and whether it has additional amp modeling and cab simulation to account for the fact that the tubes are not being driven as hard.  It is still a tube power amp with all the goodness that tubes imply.


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#18 Stratman82

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 07:53 AM

Let's be clear, the DT-25 has a tube power section.  There is no solid state AMPLIFICATION in this sucker.  The tubes are ALWAYS being used for output power.  As I understand it, the only things that change in LVM relate to the signal being applied to the power section and whether it has additional amp modeling and cab simulation to account for the fact that the tubes are not being driven as hard.  It is still a tube power amp with all the goodness that tubes imply.

 

Fair enough, I accept thats the case. When I last trawled these forums regularly back when the DT25 had just come out there was debate about exactly what was going on in LVM.

 

It seems the situation is clearer now, although there is always a slightly vague assertion in these types of posts that the amp offers "addittional amp modelling".  I've seen no clear indication of what proportion of the resultant "sound" is coming from the tubes vs modelling. I'm not sure if anyone from Line 6 has ever clarified exactly how the amp configures or controls the influence of digital/ modelled poweramp tone vs whats remains of the tube tone in LVM. Magic I assume!


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#19 talwilkins

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Posted 17 October 2013 - 02:05 PM

Fair enough, I accept thats the case. When I last trawled these forums regularly back when the DT25 had just come out there was debate about exactly what was going on in LVM.

 

It seems the situation is clearer now, although there is always a slightly vague assertion in these types of posts that the amp offers "addittional amp modelling".  I've seen no clear indication of what proportion of the resultant "sound" is coming from the tubes vs modelling. I'm not sure if anyone from Line 6 has ever clarified exactly how the amp configures or controls the influence of digital/ modelled poweramp tone vs whats remains of the tube tone in LVM. Magic I assume!

Yes, Bogner Magic!

From the start I understood that in LVM the DT uses full models but somehow (using Bogner Magic) as the volume goes up the tubes take over more and more.

I can't remember where I read this but I do know it was from Line 6.


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#20 chrishlp

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 10:01 AM

Hi,  I've experienced similar differences where the gain from the HD500 preamps is not the same as you get from the DT25.  I've used the 4 cable method to link the HD500 to other amp and the same thing happens.  I think there is a difference in the hardware preamps between the HD and DT sereis.  One option is to add a Studio EQ (flat EQ/increased gain) or Vetta Juice (low compression/increased gain) to the front of your HD preamp patch and use this to achieve the same gain response with you plug direct into the DT. 

 

  


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#21 innovine

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 08:32 AM

It's amazing that the thing is out several years yet its signal chain is still not fully understood.
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#22 chrishlp

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 08:51 AM

To pick the right model (pure/full) you need to think about how the digital amp model will work with the real valve power amp in the DT25. At low volumes the pre combined with the DT power stage lacks the power amp distortion and compression. This is not a problem on clean tones but is not going to work for crunch and distorted tones, you are better off using the full amp models in these cases.

As you increase the master volume on the DT you reach a point where the valve power section is working hard and producing the distortion you need. At this point you are better off using the pure amp model.

At volumes in between low and high, you can use the full amp model but reduce the HD amp master volume to reduce the modelled power amp distortion.

What this does mean is that if you are using your POD HD / DT for both gigging then you will probably need two sets of patches. the only way around this is to ditch the DT and go for a Stage line or the new amplifier.
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