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Apparently This Is How It's Supposed To Sound? I Think It's Unusable, I'd Appreciate Second Opinions.

distortion fizz clipping

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#1 BlueBrain

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:38 PM

On any distorted patch out of my HD500, I hear a sort of secondary distortion on top of the tone. It could be described as a digital clipping sound.  I thought it was subtle at first, now I can't un-hear it. It's on any patch where there's distortion, whether it's an effect before or after the amp, or just an amp with the drive up enough to get some crunch.  

 

It's not the guitar, input levels, output, etc - my trouble-shooting has been very thorough.  I thought maybe there was something wrong with my unit, but today I went and tested a second HD500 fresh out of the box and it sounded exactly the same.

 

Line6 support has reviewed this sound clip and says they think this tone sounds good, that the sounds I'm hearing are an intentional part of the modelling.  Forgive the lackluster playing: https://soundcloud.c...nted-distortion

 

I found this video as well, and I hear the same "digital clipping" distortion on his tone between 0:10 and 1:00: http://www.youtube.c...M2tP2w0s3Y#t=10

 

So, I'm wondering what you think of this tone.  Does it sound fine to you?  Do you hear the second level of distortion I'm referring to?  Do you hear this on your own unit?

 

Thanks in advance for your input!


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#2 BlueBrain

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:02 PM

Aaaa-ha!  Found a big thread on this issue:

 

http://www.thegearpa...d.php?t=1061955

 

Peeps are comparing it to crossover distortion, and although at times it may be the result of poor gain-staging, it's often most noticeable on simple patches with just a low-gain amp with the drive pushed up just enough to get a bit of break-up, so it can't be dialled out.

 

Whether it's an intentional part of the modelling or not isn't clear; however, nobody who can hear it likes it, and some give up on the HDs because of it.  Many others don't seem to hear it, even in the clips where some find it quite obvious.  I'm leaning towards selling my POD and picking up a tube head and a redbox.  

 

So, I'm still curious: do you hear it in my sample & in that video?  I'm wondering just how many people can discern the wanted part of the distortion in that tone from that unwanted "crossover" distortion.


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#3 radatats

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:33 AM

I hear what you are talking about.  Tell us exactly how you recorded your samples (direct, mic'd etc, what amp and speaker setup, what headphones) and maybe post the patch you used for us to try out.  I get the same thing on some patches too but I think it can be worked out.  It definitely sucks...


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#4 slurry

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 06:05 AM

It's really apparent when going direct out to your computer, but (at least for me) the digital clipping disappears if I send the signal to my amp and record with a mic. Annoying that it requires this work-around for something that shouldn't be an issue in the first place, but what can you do (besides sell the POD).


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#5 phil_m

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 07:04 AM

Just listening out of the speaker I have attached to my computer (which admittedly, isn't great), I don't hear anything too objectionable. I hear it more with earbuds, but even then I don't find it completely objectionable. I do notice a slight sizzle or something, but I doubt it's anything most people would notice in a mix. But, yes, it probably is crossover distortion. It was discussed a lot years ago when the HD line was newer. With the deep editing parameters, you should be able to make it a bit more manageable for you.


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#6 offashead

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 09:05 AM

I have the same issue and find it unacceptable, I have now sold the unit after only 3 months. I got a joyo ac tone and it way ahead and it's analogue. I am a tube man through and through so I knew it was going to be difficult. I spoke to Blue Brain about it, he like me tried all sorts of fixes to no avail. Shame but there you go. Having had Line 6 stuff in the past I should of known better but hey.

 

On another note I do have the JTV 69 which so far has been reasonably ok


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#7 BlueBrain

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 12:02 PM

Hey radatats, the distortion occurs on any amp, any output - it's not patch or output specific.  From what I've read on other threads, some people manage to reduce it in a chain of effects with a lot of tweaking, but it doesn't seem that it can be resolved on a simple slightly dirty tone.

 

Offashead, I think my unit is also going up for sale.  I'm not sure after this whether to not trust modelling in general, or just line6's modelling.  I think I'll go the route of collecting tube heads and recording with a redbox.


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#8 hurghanico

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 02:41 PM

....Line6 support has reviewed this sound clip and says they think this tone sounds good, that the sounds I'm hearing are an intentional part of the modelling...
 
the Line6 guy told you the truth..
what you are hearing is an intentional part of the modeling..
 
real tube amps exhibit to a certain degree those little dirts, they are part of the game, if they disturb you so much the only thing you can do is to try to mask them with your chain of fx and settings..
 
I found an interesting video clip showing 12 cranked low-mid gain real amps
as you can see and hear all tube amps especially when cranked tend to be dirty to some degree
 

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#9 offashead

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:00 PM

Hey radatats, the distortion occurs on any amp, any output - it's not patch or output specific.  From what I've read on other threads, some people manage to reduce it in a chain of effects with a lot of tweaking, but it doesn't seem that it can be resolved on a simple slightly dirty tone.

 

Offashead, I think my unit is also going up for sale.  I'm not sure after this whether to not trust modelling in general, or just line6's modelling.  I think I'll go the route of collecting tube heads and recording with a redbox.

hey BlueBrain. having spent about 3 hours with the Joyo pedal, I seem to have found a little jem. Dead easy, no tweaking for hours on end, it cost £30 and It sounds great for recording. I just plug it direct, line in into the Boss unit as it has it's own modeling engine. It has a very nice tube sound too. Being analogue it can get a very hissy on very very high gain but the pedal is very versatile and for £30 quid it's a no brainer. I have a Vox AC4 and the little pedal is quite close. The pedal is a clone of the Liverpool pedal originally by Tech 21. Since having the HD, I seemed to come to a standstill forever messing about with it instead of actually doing something useful. To many options for me.


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#10 MIKEY9966

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 01:27 PM

This all takes time I find my self tweaking and messing around with pod 500 more than I play guitar. This is very frustrating and I myself am thinking of selling. Some times I can dial in some kid tones . But mostly saying no balls tone for this reason I will be looking for a better product with less hassles so I can concentrate on playing guitar
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#11 MartinDorr

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:36 PM

Would be helpful if you posted your settings. I hear the distortion, but it sounds like your level is quite high. Most suspicious of your your channel volume. Have you tried backing it down to half of your setting. There are amp models where 50% channel volume is too high even with a middle in the road drive setting and guitar input level. Just a thought and a simple thing to change unless you already sold.


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#12 BlueBrain

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:41 PM

Would be helpful if you posted your settings. I hear the distortion, but it sounds like your level is quite high. Most suspicious of your your channel volume. Have you tried backing it down to half of your setting. There are amp models where 50% channel volume is too high even with a middle in the road drive setting and guitar input level. Just a thought and a simple thing to change unless you already sold.

Hi Martin - thanks for the tip.  I've troubleshot EXTENSIVELY to determine that it's not resolved by levels in the chain, guitar type, input settings, output, etc.  It's just how the POD performs.  That's why I didn't share the settings or ask for tips to resolve it, I've already been far down that road.  At this point I'm just curious how many people actually hear the issue, think it sounds fine, think it's unacceptable, etc.


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#13 BlueBrain

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:44 PM

This all takes time I find my self tweaking and messing around with pod 500 more than I play guitar. This is very frustrating and I myself am thinking of selling. Some times I can dial in some kid tones . But mostly saying no balls tone for this reason I will be looking for a better product with less hassles so I can concentrate on playing guitar

 

I hear you.  I expect to have to spend time tweaking to get a great tone on anything, but not huge amounts of time try to eliminate something that sounds unpleasant - that's unacceptable to me.  It's not how I want to spend my time when I'm trying to be creative.


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#14 BlueBrain

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 05:47 PM

 

 
the Line6 guy told you the truth..
what you are hearing is an intentional part of the modeling..
 
real tube amps exhibit to a certain degree those little dirts, they are part of the game, if they disturb you so much the only thing you can do is to try to mask them with your chain of fx and settings..
 
I found an interesting video clip showing 12 cranked low-mid gain real amps
as you can see and hear all tube amps especially when cranked tend to be dirty to some degree
 

 

 

Hey there, thanks for the vid.  To me (and a producer buddy I shared this with) the dirt on these doesn't sound like the dirt on the pod samples.  The pod sample crossover distortion sounds digital and unpleasant to me.


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#15 hurghanico

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 06:52 PM

Hey there, thanks for the vid.  To me (and a producer buddy I shared this with) the dirt on these doesn't sound like the dirt on the pod samples.  The pod sample crossover distortion sounds digital and unpleasant to me.

 

you're welcome

 

everyone has his own opinion

and to me it seems instead that the dirt of the pod samples of your clip is very similar to that of some of the amps shown in the vid I posted..

and all those amps are just cranked, not tweaked at all to give the best tone..

 

what I can say is that in my case with my equipment I don't feel/have the same your problem and personally I'm happy with the sounds I get from my HD500..


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#16 brue58ski

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:48 PM

you're welcome

 

everyone has his own opinion

and to me it seems instead that the dirt of the pod samples of your clip is very similar to that of some of the amps shown in the vid I posted..

and all those amps are just cranked, not tweaked at all to give the best tone..

 

what I can say is that in my case with my equipment I don't feel/have the same your problem and personally I'm happy with the sounds I get from my HD500..

 

I agree.  I was very surprised at how close the HD sounded to the youtube.  Variax on Lester 1, Pulled up the amp on the HD and turned the drive up to 100 with no other adjustment to the amp and no effects.  Slightly different yes but I didn't even try to match the tones.  Just a quick comparison.  It made me very happy about my choice of the HD.  Lets also keep in mind the amps are from extremely different years and who knows what guitar the youtube poster used.  By the way, I played them both through my near field monitors at the same time.


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#17 hurghanico

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:16 AM

...and who knows what guitar the youtube poster used...

 

the youtube poster used a Gibson '61 SG with bridge pickup, he recorded a loop with a Boss Loop Station and connected the FX to every amp..

 

a Shure SM57 was placed against the amp cloth, about 1-2 inches off-center of the speaker. An Apogee Duet A-D converter was used into Garage Band..

 

so I think that with your VAX Lester 1 you should have had very similar to the video results, as was the case..

 

IMO the Line6 programmers did a superb job in nailing the tones and behaviours of the real amps and FXs, so good that you have to really know (or discover) how to tweak properly the models as you should do with the real things to get good results..

 

not too easy and ready packed things here as it's not a toy, it's a professional device..


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#18 stumblinman

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:01 AM

I hear that noise in studio/direct when running straight to PA very clearly, but when using DT25 it isn't there. My direct tones use full amps and my DT tones use preamp only. Power amp modeling issue?
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#19 Karl_Houseknecht

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:16 AM

I hear that noise in studio/direct when running straight to PA very clearly, but when using DT25 it isn't there. My direct tones use full amps and my DT tones use preamp only. Power amp modeling issue?

 

Since crossover distortion occurs in the power section, yes it's a power amp modeling "issue" of sorts.  That's why you don't hear it when using preamp models.

 

Here's a good explanation of what you're hearing, along with a hint on how you might go about reducing it in the HD:

 

http://www.aikenamps...rDistortion.htm


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#20 phil_m

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 06:30 AM

To me (and a producer buddy I shared this with) the dirt on these doesn't sound like the dirt on the pod samples.  The pod sample crossover distortion sounds digital and unpleasant to me.

 

 

Really? To me the distortion in the clips you put up sounds very similar to the distortion in the Youtube clip hurghanico put up... And to be honest, the both sound similar to what happens if I drive the input of a Fender amp really hard with it cranked. The thing is, though, I often don't get to turn up a real amp that much. With the HD, it's very easy to crank the models more than you ever would in real life, so you run into these sorts of things pretty easy.

 

All that being said, I still don't think the tone in your clips sounds bad. I kind of like it, to be honest. Now, if pristine clean is what you were going for, yeah, that's definitely not it. But for slightly broken up and chewy sounding, I liked it.


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