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Apparently This Is How It's Supposed To Sound? I Think It's Unusable, I'd Appreciate Second Opinions.

distortion fizz clipping

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#21 MIKEY9966

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 07:10 AM

I have not sold I love the pod its just frustrating some times its a great peice for the money, I am just over loaded, its a guitarist thing all way trying for perfection. I am triying to have digital with krk 10s, tube with blackstar ht 5 ; solidstate with Taylor k1, I guess I should take it easy get back to basics, but I do have one question I have asked before with no response, the k 1 has stereo input so would take 2 1/4 outs so how would you hook up the black star I need 1 more 1/4 out?the xlr are in to my interface to power krk, if I use the fx send it would cancel out the 2 1/4, and if I used the head phone jack same thing, can it be done, I am thinking the a spliter out of one of the 1/4? Thanks rock on
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#22 offashead

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 08:46 AM

the youtube poster used a Gibson '61 SG with bridge pickup, he recorded a loop with a Boss Loop Station and connected the FX to every amp..

 

a Shure SM57 was placed against the amp cloth, about 1-2 inches off-center of the speaker. An Apogee Duet A-D converter was used into Garage Band..

 

so I think that with your VAX Lester 1 you should have had very similar to the video results, as was the case..

 

IMO the Line6 programmers did a superb job in nailing the tones and behaviours of the real amps and FXs, so good that you have to really know (or discover) how to tweak properly the models as you should do with the real things to get good results..

 

not too easy and ready packed things here as it's not a toy, it's a professional device..

Well I disagree. Most of the valve amps I have owned needed hardly any tweaking, in fact most them had just a volume and tone control some had no tone control at all. The only one that had a gain control was the tiny terror. Most of these amps were very old but even now I have my recent AC 4 which has only volume and tone. I'm not sure whether the HD stuff is not a toy but it seemed like one to me.

 

I have the JTV 69 and although it sounded reasonable through the HD, when I plugged it into the amp, no effects, the guitar came alive, this same effect happened when I plugged in the Joyo pedal. With the HD it all sounded like a digital mess to be quite honest what with the crossover distortion? and all that. I just don't think Line 6 nail it, in fact no one nails it. The true valve sound I believe cannot be modeled as yet and possibly cannot ever be. Like I say though I am not young, grew up with valves and have stuck with them until this recent experiment, but it's back to analogue for me. It's strange though that the digital variax sounds real good straight through a valve amp but not so good through it's digital companion. Confused.


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#23 hurghanico

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:13 AM

...Well I disagree. Most of the valve amps I have owned needed hardly any tweaking, in fact most them had just a volume and tone control some had no tone control at all...

 

using the word "tweaking" I probably spoke too approximately of what I wanted to say more in general and not only for the amp itself..

as in reality it makes much difference how it's done the whole chain to get a certain sound, the same happens in the digital world of the pod ..

which guitar are you connecting?
which pickups are you using?
guitar volume and tone are set as?


which effects are you using and in what order are they?
which of them are before the amp and which after?

which are the settings of each one?

which amp are you using?
which are the settings?

which cab are you using?
which mic and where?

and the list goes on .. each element contributes to a significant difference in the final result

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

what I know is that I heard c-r-a-p sounds from the 100% real tube things, and also from the digital counterparts..

and as opposed to that, I heard also really excellent sounds from both worlds..

 

this fact for me is more than enough to believe that given that someone has at least a decent equipment, at the end, the final results depends only on its real skills, which if missing can still developed..


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#24 offashead

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:58 AM

using the word "tweaking" I probably spoke too approximately of what I wanted to say more in general and not only for the amp itself..

as in reality it makes much difference how it's done the whole chain to get a certain sound, the same happens in the digital world of the pod ..

which guitar are you connecting?
which pickups are you using?
guitar volume and tone are set as?


which effects are you using and in what order are they?
which of them are before the amp and which after?

which are the settings of each one?

which amp are you using?
which are the settings?

which cab are you using?
which mic and where?

and the list goes on .. each element contributes to a significant difference in the final result

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

what I know is that I heard c-r-a-p sounds from the 100% real tube things, and also from the digital counterparts..

and as opposed to that, I heard also really excellent sounds from both worlds..

 

this fact for me is more than enough to believe that given that someone has at least a decent equipment, at the end, the final results depends only on its real skills, which if missing can still developed..

Most of the above concerning the list I don't have to think about, just plug the guitar in turn the amps up and bobs your uncle, very simple. Live, the sound chap set the mic up and the whole show went through the PA, I just did the usual thing, play.

 

I do think and having owned many ancient valve amps that less is more, the biggest amp I owned was a Roost Session master from 1976 which was 100 watts it had a few more knobs to twiddle, the Ac 30 from the 60's had a few too, but these were relatively simple beasts and once sorted they stayed sorted. Most of them since have been 15 watts or less which I find to be on the money. I can pretty well play anywhere with these very simple amps/ combos. No matter what I did with the HD I knew it would not be able to cut it even without the crossover distortion, but I had a go.

 

There will always be arguments between the digital crowd and the tube/valve fanatics. I went to a hi fi event down in Windsor at the weekend and the bitchin about valves v digital was loud, clear and very vocal towards who's right and who's wrong. The answers  probably blowing in the wind. Me, I have never really used digital amps apart from a Line 6 spider which I bought and sold two weeks later, but I thought lets give them another try. Like I say. The Variax is quite a nice guitar, it still has the digital thing about it, but it's very versatile for what I am up to now. In my opinion the HD isn't, which is a shame. Maybe I should of gone with the stripped down 300 version instead. but it's to late now.


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#25 hurghanico

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

...Most of the above concerning the list I don't have to think about, just plug the guitar in turn the amps up and bobs your uncle, very simple. Live, the sound chap set the mic up and the whole show went through the PA, I just did the usual thing, play...

 

probably that's the point..

 

you're used to playing live with a real amp not too close to your ears ..
so the air and the surrounding environment function as a filter respect to what you hear and perceive, masking some less pleasant nuances ..

is only the sound guy then that does all the "dirty" work and other things to make the most of what comes from the microphone attached to the amp
..

 

especially if you use the pod for recording you have to think a little more as a sound engineer, and you should expect to grasp also some strange little nuances and dirts that you didn't note before when playing live..

 

probably if you just connect the pod to an external amp and play it live many of those little details will be lost in the ambience


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#26 brue58ski

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 03:26 PM

probably that's the point..

 

you're used to playing live with a real amp not too close to your ears ..
so the air and the surrounding environment function as a filter respect to what you hear and perceive, masking some less pleasant nuances ..

is only the sound guy then that does all the "dirty" work and other things to make the most of what comes from the microphone attached to the amp
..

 

especially if you use the pod for recording you have to think a little more as a sound engineer, and you should expect to grasp also some strange little nuances and dirts that you didn't note before when playing live..

 

probably if you just connect the pod to an external amp and play it live many of those little details will be lost in the ambience

 

Yes.  I think he's comparing playng a live amp and what you hear (and feel) from the amp itself to the HD.  Technically that's not what the HD is reproducing.  It's reproducing a recorded amp or amp through a PA, not a live amp.  In each case a mic is used.  So essentially the HD reproduces a miced amp, not a straight amp.  Two different things.  That's why it comes so close to that youtube clip.  He essentially used what the Line 6 gear was reproducing down to the same mic and mic position.


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#27 hurghanico

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 05:12 PM

...essentially the HD reproduces a miced amp, not a straight amp.  Two different things...

 

absolutely yes,

 

when you use the full amps/cabs models to record something that's what you get:

a close miced amp sound like the one a sound guy would get from a studio miced real amp..

 

differently if you don't use use any cab/mic model, you can send the amp processed still pure electric signal to a powered real cab, and again, if you use just your ears from some distance you'll hear a thing, but if you close mic that real cab and record that signal, you'll get a somewhat different thing than before, and probably you'll hear some more details, which at times can be not so pleasant..

 

if you hear any amp from 3 meters distance on stage, and if you put instead your ear very very close to the cab, sure you'll hear some differences, even if not as many as a mic could capture..


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#28 Rewolf48

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:40 AM

"if you hear any amp from 3 meters distance on stage, and if you put instead your ear very very close to the cab, sure you'll hear some differences, even if not as many as a mic could capture.."

 

Yikes... :o

 

There is also the beam thing - most guitarists set their tone with their ears way off axis because they don't have ears on their knees.  So what if the audience gets ice pick treble beamed at them at least it sounds good to me....


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#29 brian6string

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:48 PM

I don't know dude, I know I get really nice tone out of my POD. I agree the tone in your recording sucks, and when I went to SoundCloud the first thing I noticed was the audio "graph" (the visual they give you of the audio signal) was pegged all the way thru--it looked like a rectangle more than a wave form. In my experience, that happens when my input signal is too high for my recording device or software. Just a thought.

So again, I agree what you posted sounds pretty terrible, but I know first hand that this device is capable of producing really good tone. So, no offense, but your recording is not "just how the POD performs."

Hi Martin - thanks for the tip.  I've troubleshot EXTENSIVELY to determine that it's not resolved by levels in the chain, guitar type, input settings, output, etc.  It's just how the POD performs.  That's why I didn't share the settings or ask for tips to resolve it, I've already been far down that road.  At this point I'm just curious how many people actually hear the issue, think it sounds fine, think it's unacceptable, etc.


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#30 BlueBrain

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:01 PM

everyone has his own opinion

and to me it seems instead that the dirt of the pod samples of your clip is very similar to that of some of the amps shown in the vid I posted..

and all those amps are just cranked, not tweaked at all to give the best tone..

 

See, it's that jagged surface distortion on the softer playing half way through my clip in particular - I can't eliminate it it (have tried, very thoroughly) and I don't hear that on recordings of real tube amps.  What I'm confused about is whether other players hear that distortion and just don't mind it, or whether they just don't really hear it at all.  To me there's a nice warm very slightly crunchy tone underneath, and this nails-on-chalkboard dirty distortion on the surface, and I can't record with that, not for any kind of delicate playing in a subtle mix.  Listen to my clip again from the mid point, do you hear what I'm talking about, and if so, do you think it sounds good?  Honest question.  https://soundcloud.c...nted-distortion

 


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#31 BlueBrain

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:06 PM

All that being said, I still don't think the tone in your clips sounds bad. I kind of like it, to be honest. Now, if pristine clean is what you were going for, yeah, that's definitely not it. But for slightly broken up and chewy sounding, I liked it.

 

No, I'm going for slightly broken up, and I like the tone in general, but particularly from the mid point on with softer playing, there's an unwanted distortion on the surface that just sounds wrong to me, and to others.  Listen really closely from the middle on, listen for that messy break-up that falls off about 3/4 of the way through each chord ringing out: https://soundcloud.c...nted-distortion


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#32 BlueBrain

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:18 PM

...
which are the settings?

which cab are you using?
which mic and where?

and the list goes on .. each element contributes to a significant difference in the final result

I realize you weren't asking me, just replying to the other post, but for reference, I tried with multiple guitars with different pickups, multiple outputs, adjusted input impedance, all the levels in the chain, and the sample is a simple amp with no effects in the chain, drive probably around 40%.  I didn't bother specifying anything because I hear this "crossover distortion" sound on almost every preset or new patch, whether it's a distortion pedal or a simple amp with a bit or a lot of drive.  Sometimes it's more obvious, sometimes it's kind of subtle, and sometimes if there's an effect like a flanger after the amp in the chain it's not there.

The ONLY thing I can do to eliminate it is by lowering the guitar volume or the drive on the amp to the point the tone is completely clean.

In my clip I think you can hear it most clearly on the light playing half way through - it's the rattly distortion on top that falls off 3/4 of the way through each chord ring-out.  https://soundcloud.c...nted-distortion

Line6 says that's how it's supposed to sound, but it just sounds wrong to me, and to a few others with very pro ears that I've run it past.  I plugged into a Hughes & Kettner tube head at the store this weekend, dialled in a very slightly distorted tone like that, and most definitely didn't hear that sort of "crossover distortion."

I don't mean to be a troll with this post, I was honestly very curious whether other people hear it in the sample and if they do, whether they find it acceptable or not.


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#33 BlueBrain

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:24 PM

especially if you use the pod for recording you have to think a little more as a sound engineer, and you should expect to grasp also some strange little nuances and dirts that you didn't note before when playing live..

 

Just to play devil's advocate here a bit: I shared the sample, and the video I linked to with a friend who used to engineer for years and then went on to produce big names in LA, now producing big names in Canada ... his diagnoses: "Yeah, that's digital. No, I don't have to try to filter that sort of thing out when recording from tube amps in the studio."

 


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#34 BlueBrain

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 10:36 PM

I don't know dude, I know I get really nice tone out of my POD. I agree the tone in your recording sucks, and when I went to SoundCloud the first thing I noticed was the audio "graph" (the visual they give you of the audio signal) was pegged all the way thru--it looked like a rectangle more than a wave form. In my experience, that happens when my input signal is too high for my recording device or software. Just a thought.

So again, I agree what you posted sounds pretty terrible, but I know first hand that this device is capable of producing really good tone. So, no offense, but your recording is not "just how the POD performs."
 

A few thoughts:

1) in my experience soundcloud pretty heavily compressed the file, so not sure how much of the shape of the waveform may be a result of that,

2) regardless, that "crossover distortion" noise is audible via XLR outs with a prime signal level into my MOTU, USB, or headphones out, regardless of any levels in the chain.  The only thing I can do to eliminate it is drop the drive or the guitar volume WAY down until there's no distortion left at all.

3) I hear the exact same noise on the video link I posted

4) when I say it's "just how the POD performs" I'm quoting Line6.  They listened to the sample in their "lab" - and they apparently all agreed that it was "a good tone" and sounded how it was supposed to sound.

See, you're the first one (on here) saying it sounded terrible.  This is what I was most curious about and intended in the post: I wanted to know how many people actually HEAR that nasty distortion, and whether they think it sounds fine or unacceptable.  I think it's unacceptable, as does the profoundly amazing guitar player at the music shop (while trying out a new HD 500 at the shop to rule out it being a problem with my unit), as does my producer friend, etc.  I was baffled to have Line6 reply that the tone sounded good to them.

Anyway, I hadn't intended to argue that it's bad, I just wanted to know how many people hear it, but, yeah: "just how the POD performs" were Line6's words.

 


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#35 clay-man

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:55 AM

 It's reproducing a recorded amp or amp through a PA, not a live amp.

 

That's something people need to understand. Hearing your guitar from a cab is totally different from hearing your guitar from a mic'd up cab or anything simulating that. A mic'd cab will only get certain frequencies of the cabinet, depending on position, and frequency response of the mic.

 

 

I don't know dude, I know I get really nice tone out of my POD. I agree the tone in your recording sucks, and when I went to SoundCloud the first thing I noticed was the audio "graph" (the visual they give you of the audio signal) was pegged all the way thru--it looked like a rectangle more than a wave form. In my experience, that happens when my input signal is too high for my recording device or software. Just a thought.

So again, I agree what you posted sounds pretty terrible, but I know first hand that this device is capable of producing really good tone. So, no offense, but your recording is not "just how the POD performs."
 

 

That would be digital clipping if that was the case, and that means he needs to turn down the final output stage of his chain to not clip, and/or put a compressor/limiter on the end.


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#36 phil_m

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:35 AM

Just to play devil's advocate here a bit: I shared the sample, and the video I linked to with a friend who used to engineer for years and then went on to produce big names in LA, now producing big names in Canada ... his diagnoses: "Yeah, that's digital. No, I don't have to try to filter that sort of thing out when recording from tube amps in the studio."

 

The sound you hear isn't just because the POD is digital... It's because it's not dialed in correctly. There are ways to get a cleaner tone with the HD series, but you don't seem to be interested in actually finding solutions.

 

The thing is if you have the drive around 40%, that can actually be pretty high on a non-master volume amp. On a Deluxe Reverb, for instance, that very well may be past the point where you start getting power tube break up depending on what type of guitar you have plugged in. Have you tried adjusting the deep editing parameters on your tones?

 

Anyway, it's not my place to try to make you like the product. If you don't, you don't. I just think you're selling it a bit short.

 


Anyway, I hadn't intended to argue that it's bad, I just wanted to know how many people hear it, but, yeah: "just how the POD performs" were Line6's words.

 

 

I think you're making a bit too much out of what the Line 6 people said. They were affirming that nothing in your clip was the result of defect, but it is possible to have sounds where the crossover distortion isn't an issue. It's not always there. Forgive me if you said already, but what type of guitar did you use to record these clips?


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#37 brian6string

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:44 AM

I don't know what crossover distortion is, or what digital clipping is, but have you ever played a Plexi? It has a similar kind of character to what you posted, but it really sounds to me that your post is mostly just poorly recorded.

My only point is this: the POD does not sound like your recording when I use it. I'm sure I could dial up something equally terrible if I tried, but I'm trying to make music. So I don't know what your point is. Many people use these things to make really excellent sounding music.

Is it easier to screw the sound up on these--or as others have said, with my old tube amp I could just plug in and go? Sure. More options certainly make anything harder to use. If I wanted easy, that's the route I'd go. But I'm trying to make music.

To me, and I'll grant you it's not everyone's cup of tea, the versatility afforded by these devices far outweigh the minuscule and I'll say "alleged" sacrifice in perfect tonal quality. I'd rather be able to switch between really good models of a Boogie and a JCM800 (in stereo) for a rock song, and go to an AC30 for something quieter, than have to choose one amp and try to make it sound close to all of the above. That to me is a true sacrifice...buying and lugging around a great tube amp for its tone, and then sticking a million pedals in front of it so it can sort of sound like AC/DC once in a while.
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#38 hurghanico

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:50 AM

..In my clip I think you can hear it most clearly on the light playing half way through - it's the rattly distortion on top that falls off 3/4 of the way through each chord ring-out.  https://soundcloud.c...nted-distortion..

 

https://www.dropbox..../test track.mp3

 

just for a test and comparison I did a quick recording (the link above here) for you and I played 3 different VAX 700 guitar models with some energy to emphasize any possible part good or bad of the HD amp model sound

 

the settings:

 

inputs: both the same

 

amp model: AC-30

mic: 67 cond

 

drive like yours: 40%

 

bass: 5%

cut: 100%

treble: 50%

presence: 0%

amp volume: 100%

 

mixer block volume: both channels at +6 dB

 

no effects at all, no reverb

 

the guitar models used in the order are:

 

Gibson LP Standard bridge PU

Gibson LP Junior bridge PU

Rickenbacker 360 bridge PU

 

each guitar had the tone and volume knobs full open

 

personally I don't hear any nasty clipping or crossover distortion

 

hope it helps


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#39 hurghanico

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:29 AM

...but it really sounds to me that your post is mostly just poorly recorded...

 

I have the same suspect..


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#40 clay-man

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 06:33 AM

I don't know what crossover distortion is, or what digital clipping is, but have you ever played a Plexi? It has a similar kind of character to what you posted, but it really sounds to me that your post is mostly just poorly recorded.

My only point is this: the POD does not sound like your recording when I use it. I'm sure I could dial up something equally terrible if I tried, but I'm trying to make music. So I don't know what your point is. Many people use these things to make really excellent sounding music.

Is it easier to screw the sound up on these--or as others have said, with my old tube amp I could just plug in and go? Sure. More options certainly make anything harder to use. If I wanted easy, that's the route I'd go. But I'm trying to make music.

To me, and I'll grant you it's not everyone's cup of tea, the versatility afforded by these devices far outweigh the minuscule and I'll say "alleged" sacrifice in perfect tonal quality. I'd rather be able to switch between really good models of a Boogie and a JCM800 (in stereo) for a rock song, and go to an AC30 for something quieter, than have to choose one amp and try to make it sound close to all of the above. That to me is a true sacrifice...buying and lugging around a great tube amp for its tone, and then sticking a million pedals in front of it so it can sort of sound like AC/DC once in a while.

 

Digital clipping is what happens when the volume exceeds the maximum amplitude that a digital signal can have. The bit-depth of a digital signal is how many bits are used to tell where the sample's amplitude is. If the volume is larger than the bit depth, then you lose that data of amplitube and it just clips to the top or bottom of the maximum decibel level that bit depth can give you.

 

Digital clipping is basically hard clipping distortion.


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