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Apparently This Is How It's Supposed To Sound? I Think It's Unusable, I'd Appreciate Second Opinions.

distortion fizz clipping

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#41 BlueBrain

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:54 AM

That would be digital clipping if that was the case, and that means he needs to turn down the final output stage of his chain to not clip, and/or put a compressor/limiter on the end.

 

I get that sound regardless of output levels, via XLR/USB/phones, have tried five different guitars on the front, two different HD500s to confirm it's not a bug, adjusted input impedance, doesn't matter where levels are at in the chain, I hear it on presets and on very simple patches consisting of nothing but a low-gain amp with the drive up just enough for a bit of break-up.  The ONLY way I can seem to clear that clipping-type noise out of the tone is to lower the guitar volume or drive to the point there's no distortion in the tone at all.

I was just curious how many others notice the sound and are or aren't bothered by it, but folks are quick to assume it's just user error.


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#42 BlueBrain

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:01 AM

The sound you hear isn't just because the POD is digital... It's because it's not dialed in correctly. There are ways to get a cleaner tone with the HD series, but you don't seem to be interested in actually finding solutions.

 

The thing is if you have the drive around 40%, that can actually be pretty high on a non-master volume amp. On a Deluxe Reverb, for instance, that very well may be past the point where you start getting power tube break up depending on what type of guitar you have plugged in. Have you tried adjusting the deep editing parameters on your tones?

 

I think you're making a bit too much out of what the Line 6 people said. They were affirming that nothing in your clip was the result of defect, but it is possible to have sounds where the crossover distortion isn't an issue. It's not always there. Forgive me if you said already, but what type of guitar did you use to record these clips?

 

I didn't specify the guitar or patch details, because I've tried five guitars on two HD500s, I hear that unwanted distortion on almost any preset or new patch other than perfectly clean ones - any guitar, any output, every level in the chain tested.  I wasn't looking for solutions in the thread because I already spent weeks on forums, back and forth with line6, out to the music store to check another unit, etc.  The ONLY thing that has worked for me to eliminate that unpleasant clippy sounding distortion is to have no distortion at all, either by lowering the drive or the guitar volume to the point the tone is completely clean.  

Line6 said specifically that they thought the tone sounded good, that they'd be happy with the tone.  That's what got me curious about how many people actually hear that distortion noise I'm referencing in the clip.


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#43 BlueBrain

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:19 AM

I don't know what crossover distortion is, or what digital clipping is, but have you ever played a Plexi? It has a similar kind of character to what you posted, but it really sounds to me that your post is mostly just poorly recorded.

My only point is this: the POD does not sound like your recording when I use it. I'm sure I could dial up something equally terrible if I tried, but I'm trying to make music. So I don't know what your point is. Many people use these things to make really excellent sounding music.

Is it easier to screw the sound up on these--or as others have said, with my old tube amp I could just plug in and go? Sure. More options certainly make anything harder to use. If I wanted easy, that's the route I'd go. But I'm trying to make music.

To me, and I'll grant you it's not everyone's cup of tea, the versatility afforded by these devices far outweigh the minuscule and I'll say "alleged" sacrifice in perfect tonal quality. I'd rather be able to switch between really good models of a Boogie and a JCM800 (in stereo) for a rock song, and go to an AC30 for something quieter, than have to choose one amp and try to make it sound close to all of the above. That to me is a true sacrifice...buying and lugging around a great tube amp for its tone, and then sticking a million pedals in front of it so it can sort of sound like AC/DC once in a while.

 

Yeah, I hear you, I used to perform in show & tribute bands, I needed a wide variety of tone, hence I've been using Line6 from the original bean, the AX212, variax acoustic, and now the HD500.

I'm also trying to make music; record it, specifically, and I picked up the HD500 on spec because of course the versatility appeals, but I can pick a preset or set up a new tone that is nothing but an amp with a bit of drive, grab my strat, tele, ibanez or gibson, and via XLR, USB or phones, I hear that nasty little clipping sound on top of the tone, and I've spent heaps of time trying to dial it out, hunting forums, back and forth with line6. I assumed for the past two months that my unit was defective, just resolved recently that it's not.

Anyway, I realize it's working for a lot of people, so I was wondering if that's just because they don't notice or don't mind that clippy-distortion sound.  Almost all of what I find for recordings produced with the HD seem to be high gain, and of course it's harder to hear that sound in a high gain tone (though I still do) and even harder in a mix.  I finally found an extensive thread of people discussing this exact sound, calling it cross-over distortion, and it seems it is a particular issue on the HDs with low gain amps once the drive is up enough to get just a bit of break-up.  That's the exact tone some of us want, a nice warm light crunch, hence me only providing the short clip with one tone in spite of it being an issue I hear on almost all presets and amp models.

Anyway, just to be clear, it's not a recording issue.  The signal out wasn't too hot, and that sound is there regardless.


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#44 BlueBrain

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:47 AM

https://www.dropbox..../test track.mp3

 

...

 

personally I don't hear any nasty clipping or crossover distortion

 

hope it helps

Hey, that was really nice of you to take the time to do that.  :)  Thank you.

The tone is higher gain than the type I was aiming for, I'd say try the Fender BDR normal with drive dialled in anywhere between 20 to 40ish, wherever it needs to be to just start to get a bit of break-up.

I'll listen to your sample a little later when I can give it more attention, can't at the moment, but first quick listen my impression was that I didn't hear the clippy sound.  


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#45 BlueBrain

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:58 AM

I have the same suspect..

 

I'm tellin' ya, I hear that sound via USB, phones, XLR with a good signal to my MOTU, ... with any of the five guitars I've tried, on both the HD500s I've tried.  I've spent extensive time trying to "dial it out" but only thing that works is to stick with perfectly clean tones.

Whatever it is, it's not the recording.  The signal out to the MOTU for those recordings wasn't too hot, and it sounded exactly the same on phones.


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#46 hurghanico

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:59 AM

The tone is higher gain than the type I was aiming for, I'd say try the Fender BDR normal with drive dialled in anywhere between 20 to 40ish, wherever it needs to be to just start to get a bit of break-up.

I'll listen to your sample a little later when I can give it more attention, can't at the moment, but first quick listen my impression was that I didn't hear the clippy sound.  

 

I'm glad if the recording can be of any help..

 

even if you said that you had the clipping problem with any HD amp, when I'll find the time I'll try to do a recording also with the Deluxe normal channel..

 

I have the impression your problem depends on something else like I dont know, it could be: a bad guitar or USB cable, or maybe buffer/latency not set properly for your computer, too many usb devices connected at the same time.. who knows?


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#47 BlueBrain

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

I'm glad if the recording can be of any help..

 

even if you said that you had the clipping problem with any HD amp, when I'll find the time I'll try to do a recording also with the Deluxe normal channel..

 

I have the impression your problem depends on something else like I dont know, it could be: a bad guitar or USB cable, or maybe buffer/latency not set properly for your computer, too many usb devices connected at the same time.. who knows?

It's not on the computer end, I get it via USB or XLR through a MOTU.  Not guitar, I've tried five.  Not the unit, I've tried two HD500s. I also hear the exact same thing in that video I posted.  I don't think I hear it on your sample.

From what I can tell, it's mainly an issue on low gain amps with the drive at the point of giving just a bit of break-up, though I often hear it on higher gain stuff as well.

This thread kind of went off the rails though, I hadn't intended for it to be about problem solving, I've already been through that extensively, including with Line6 support ... at this point I was just wondering whether people hear what I'm talking about or not.  I was curios whether I just have more picky ears at this point ... if people are getting that sound but just not noticing it or not bothered by it.


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#48 stumblinman

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:12 AM

It's not on the computer end, I get it via USB or XLR through a MOTU. Not guitar, I've tried five. Not the unit, I've tried two HD500s. I also hear the exact same thing in that video I posted. I don't think I hear it on your sample.

From what I can tell, it's mainly an issue on low gain amps with the drive at the point of giving just a bit of break-up, though I often hear it on higher gain stuff as well.

This thread kind of went off the rails though, I hadn't intended for it to be about problem solving, I've already been through that extensively, including with Line6 support ... at this point I was just wondering whether people hear what I'm talking about or not. I was curios whether I just have more picky ears at this point ... if people are getting that sound but just not noticing it or not bothered by it.

It's there. You're not crazy. It's not there on hurghanico's. I wonder if it is an issue with noise/ distortion from the 1/4" in? I assume hurghanico's using the VDI input. Mixer settings? Hurghanico's is boosted +6. Perhaps the output is under driven? I know it sounds stupid, but what do you have to lose?
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#49 offashead

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:57 AM

I know where Blue Brain is coming from as I have tried everything too. It now seems more are hearing it. It matters not to me anymore because the units up the road but it is interesting and I knew I wasn't alone when I first heard it. I don't use computers for music production, just my Roland boss standalone recorder, the HD was Line in. I didn't get around to using it through my amp because that's not what I wanted it for.


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#50 phil_m

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:36 PM

 I won't say that I don't hear it... I do hear a certain amount of fizz or hash or whatever you want to call it, but I don't find it all that objectionable. I hear the same sort of thing if I plug a guitar with humbuckers into a Fender amp a lot of times, too, though. So I guess my feeling is that there are some people who seem to be really bothered by this for whatever reason, but thankfully, I'm not one of them.

 

One thing I would ask that original poster is if he tried switching Input 2 to something other than "Guitar" or "Same". That would make a difference in the gain staging through the unit, definitely.


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#51 hurghanico

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:46 PM

...I assume hurghanico's using the VDI input...

 

Yes, I used the VDI input..


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#52 hurghanico

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:32 PM

...try the Fender BDR normal with drive dialled in anywhere between 20 to 40ish, wherever it needs to be to just start to get a bit of break-up...

 

I did 2 more recording, this time with the Deluxe normal channel, one is done through the VDI input and the other one through the Guitar In (VDI disconnected using batteries on my VAX 700):

 

https://www.dropbox..../Deluxe VDI.mp3

 

https://www.dropbox....e Guitar In.mp3

 

the settings:

 

mic: 4038 RBN

 

inputs: both the same

 

drive: 50%

bass: 6%

mid: 50%

treble: 50%

presence: 0%

 

amp volume: 100%

 

mixer block: both channels at +6 dB

 

the guitar models used are the same as in the previous posted recording in the same order

 

---------------------------

 

again, I can't hear any digital clipping, crossover distortion or else.... both when connected through the VDI and the Guitar In inputs..

 

I have to assume that probably you have a problem or interference somewhere in your equipment that must be investigated..

maybe also that your POD is faulty, I don't know, and you were unlucky to try 2 faulty PODs in a row..

 

what I know is that I don't have your same problem


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#53 BlueBrain

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:36 PM

I did 2 more recording, this time with the Deluxe normal channel, one is done through the VDI input and the other one through the Guitar In (VDI disconnected using batteries on my VAX 700):

 

https://www.dropbox..../Deluxe VDI.mp3

 

https://www.dropbox....e Guitar In.mp3

 

the settings:

 

mic: 4038 RBN

 

drive: 50%

bass: 6%

mid: 50%

treble: 50%

presence: 0%

 

amp volume: 100%

 

mixer block: both channels at +6 dB

 

the guitar models used are the same as in the previous posted recording in the same order

 

---------------------------

 

again, I can't hear any digital clipping, crossover distortion or else.... both when connected through the VDI and the Guitar In inputs..

 

I have to assume that probably you have a problem or interference somewhere in your equipment that must be investigated..

maybe also that your POD is faulty, I don't know, and you were unlucky to try 2 faulty PODs in a row..

 

what I know is that I don't have your same problem

 

Very interesting - I'll take my HD 500 back out of the box this weekend, will set it up again with exact settings matching yours & will see what comes of it.  

Thanks for the time you've taken to help!


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#54 clay-man

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:58 PM

I get that sound regardless of output levels, via XLR/USB/phones, have tried five different guitars on the front, two different HD500s to confirm it's not a bug, adjusted input impedance, doesn't matter where levels are at in the chain, I hear it on presets and on very simple patches consisting of nothing but a low-gain amp with the drive up just enough for a bit of break-up.  The ONLY way I can seem to clear that clipping-type noise out of the tone is to lower the guitar volume or drive to the point there's no distortion in the tone at all.

I was just curious how many others notice the sound and are or aren't bothered by it, but folks are quick to assume it's just user error.

 

If you're talking about the output level set by a volume knob (if the POD has one of those), that doesn't matter. You have to make sure the output level isn't clipping in the digital stages. I'm pretty sure an output knob would just be controlling the level of the analog stage of the output.

 

You have to adjust the output inside your chain and make sure it's not clipping there.


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#55 Karl_Houseknecht

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:58 PM

Since crossover distortion occurs in the power section, yes it's a power amp modeling "issue" of sorts.  That's why you don't hear it when using preamp models.

 

Here's a good explanation of what you're hearing, along with a hint on how you might go about reducing it in the HD:

 

http://www.aikenamps...rDistortion.htm

 

For those wanting the solution to minimize crossover distortion, read the info at the above link.  Adjust the bias deep edit parameter accordingly.  And don't play with the gain so high.


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#56 BlueBrain

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 07:13 PM

Hey all.  Sooooo ... I really had been quite thorough in my earlier troubleshooting, trying different instruments/outputs/amps/levels in the chain, everything suggested to me via line6 support tickets, even going to a store to test another HD 500 with other guitars. Nothing was working.

 

I'm managing now to dial out the clipping sound.  It's still very easy to dial it in, and not entirely clear where it's being introduced.  On the Blackface DBL with gain up I need to keep the bass low and switch to 4038 ribbon mic.

 

I'm still not sold on the unit, so far it's wasted a LOT of my time, I don't think it should be this difficult to achieve a workable tone - but, those of you who said it was possible to resolve that clipping sound with proper settings seemed to be correct.

 

I'm still not sure that it's a matter of gain staging, as if I leave the bass up even above 25% and leave the default mic selected, I can't dial out the clipping without lowering the master and/or drive to the point of zero or near zero distortion.  I mean, you can introduce the same digital clipping sound via poor gain staging, of course, but so far what works to dial it out seems somewhat random, relating to EQ and cabinet/mic selection regardless of gain levels. 

I'm still not convinced it's all a matter of accurate reproduction of the original amps, but whatever the case, if it's digital clipping, why is there nothing in the user interface to show where it's occurring in the chain?  The software should be able to detect that and the user interface should display it.


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#57 hurghanico

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 02:57 AM

...I'm still not sure that it's a matter of gain staging, as if I leave the bass up even above 25% and leave the default mic selected, I can't dial out the clipping without lowering the master and/or drive to the point of zero or near zero distortion.  I mean, you can introduce the same digital clipping sound via poor gain staging, of course, but so far what works to dial it out seems somewhat random, relating to EQ and cabinet/mic selection regardless of gain levels...

 

IMO the issue could depend on the guitar signal level, some guitars have active or very close to the strings pickups and therefore have a very hot output, which fed to a digital device could easily cause some nasty digital clipping, unless there is some sort of input level settings, which unfortunately the POD hasn't, except a very generic 2 ways PAD switch, which is better than nothing


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#58 BlueBrain

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:10 AM

IMO the issue could depend on the guitar signal level, some guitars have active or very close to the strings pickups and therefore have a very hot output, which fed to a digital device could easily cause some nasty digital clipping, unless there is some sort of input level settings, which unfortunately the POD hasn't, except a very generic 2 ways PAD switch, which is better than nothing

 

If the clipping were happening at the input stage, one would expect to hear it consistently, any patch, not just specifically medium gain setups.  Also, if it were a too-hot guitar input, turning down the volume on the guitar a bit should provide a simple resolution, but as I mentioned, I had tried five very different guitars and the only thing that worked was to lower the drive or the guitar volume to the point of zero distortion.

Now I've found that trying different mics, adjusting bias, and keeping the bottom end modest seems to resolve it.

It seems resolvable, but the solutions limit tone options.


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