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Power Amp And Cab Live - Are You Using Pre Or Full Models?

live cabinet power amp preamp full models

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#1 NinoScholz

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

So i run my Pod HD Pro into a Mesa 50/50 power amp and a 4x12 V30/G12T75 Cab. On my pod, i run in stack pwr amp mode with the cab modeling off. When setting my tones up, i've always felt like i get a better tone using the full models (power amp included) vs preamp only models, but i have not tried the pre-only models yet in a band setting. Once i get to practice, i'm always wanting to test my latest tweaks to my usual full amp model patches - and i never really tweak at the gig. GRanted, i really feel like i'm getting some great, realistic tones from the full models, but i'm always looking to improve my tone. I realize in theory the "pre-only" models make more sense with my setup, but i'm going by my ears.

 

So my question for those using the pod live with a power amp and cab - do you use the full models or preamp only models. Would love to hear some other folks' experience on this and what you think of each. Thanks!


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#2 partytrain

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:22 PM

I use them both equally.  Right now my setup is running the PodHD through effects return of a fender mustang.  Originally I was using the full models of all the amps, it wasn't until recently that I started even trying the pre-models.  For me it just depends on the patch/amp.  I prefer the pre-model Treadplate, but the full model Slo.  If it sounds good to your ears, you're doing it right.


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#3 RipperShred

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 08:32 PM

Use Pre only; Pro into a velocity 300, into a 4x12 cab. It's glorious.


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#4 NinoScholz

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 09:05 PM

Thanks for the responses. Ill probably try a preamp patch next practice just to see how it sounds  in the band mix. I had the velocity 300 for a bit and i think it may have actually colored my tone more than the 50/50 which seems pretty neutral...maybe part of reason the power sims work well for me. I tend to use the recto as my main rhythm tone, and prefer the full amp, so yeah, up to taste i guess - plus so much of our other gear affects the tone...cabs, power, etc

 

Think i found a good mix of the two settings tonight by running the master volume on the full amp model lower, its almost like a "mix" knob for the power amp sim, allows me to dial in just enough of the power amp portion to taste. The pod just keeps getting better. On thing i really dig about the pod is getting my tone tweaked a bit better, then testing it with the band each time and hearing the improvement at volume....last practice was indeed "glorious"!!!!


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#5 joel_brown

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:21 AM

I use a PreAmp patch with cab and mic into the power amp of a Marshall and cab for live use.


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#6 gunpointmetal

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:27 AM

HD 500->Crate PowerBlock->4x12 Grundorf Cabenstein here.... It really depends on the tone I'm after. Most of my clean tones have full models, while my rhythm distortion is a pre-only model, and for leads I also use a full model...I basically think of the power amp modeling as more EQ in this set-up so I use it if I need it.


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#7 HDProJohn

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:20 AM

I much preferred full models when using a 50/50 into an Avatar V30 4x12.


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#8 RipperShred

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 07:38 PM

Yeah, like much of Rocktron rack gear, the velocity 300 has a very marshall-EL34 vibe to it, ESPECIALLY noticeable as you turn up the "definition" control. You really start to hear the wooly upper mid marshally focus. I find keeping the reactance from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock give you the warm tubeness and girth, and keeping the definition around 12 o'clock, and moving it up very, very sparingly from there keeps that in check. If you get your presence/upper mids from the pod, and not from the poweramp definition control, it is indeed glorious.

 

Set the controls wrong, and I agree, it does colour your tone pretty heavily, and in a potentially undesirable way.


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#9 briandshelby

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:16 AM

Use Pre only; Pro into a velocity 300, into a 4x12 cab. It's glorious.

 

Yeah, like much of Rocktron rack gear, the velocity 300 has a very marshall-EL34 vibe to it, ESPECIALLY noticeable as you turn up the "definition" control. You really start to hear the wooly upper mid marshally focus. I find keeping the reactance from 12 o'clock to 9 o'clock give you the warm tubeness and girth, and keeping the definition around 12 o'clock, and moving it up very, very sparingly from there keeps that in check. If you get your presence/upper mids from the pod, and not from the poweramp definition control, it is indeed glorious.

 

Set the controls wrong, and I agree, it does colour your tone pretty heavily, and in a potentially undesirable way.

 

 

This is my setup too, and my presets sounded thin to my ears without the full models. I haven't played with the 300's controls at all though, so good to know.


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#10 NinoScholz

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 07:37 AM

This is my setup too, and my presets sounded thin to my ears without the full models. I haven't played with the 300's controls at all though, so good to know.

 

Thats kinda what i'm hearing, the pre models kinda lack some girth, but they are way more "In your face". I think they will cut through the mix better, but they just don't sound as authentic and reactive to me. Even after using the full models with the master turned down, i went back to my old patches with the master turned up. Turns out i just prefer it, just proves there is no right and wrong way

 

By the way, the 50/50 is nice, but was not a huge improvement over the velocity 300. I was just hell bent on getting some tubes in the chain. I can't even pinpoint the improvement, it just sounded slightly better. I did miss the reactance control of the 300.


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#11 radatats

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 10:13 AM

So this is an area i have struggled with too.  I have an older 300 which I love and can feed either a 2X12 cab wired in stereo with Eminence speakers or a pair of Peavey PA speakers.  I use the full amp models in Studio Direct in order to get the modeling of both the preamp and power amp section of the amp I am choosing in the POD (IMHO).  The 300 does have some slight coloration and the reactance mimics tube compression to a degree but it will never replace the modeled characteristics of the power section in the POD.  It is not a guitar amp power section so I do not try to run Stack or Combo outputs to it, they sound like crap to me except going to my DT 25.

 

I do like to change the cab sims though.  Going to the PA (FR) speakers I always use a cab sim though I may experiment with different cabs and mics for slight tonal variations.  Going to the guitar cab I usually use no cab sim as the cabs own real world action is great.  I don't want to add another simulation of a cab's performance on top of the actual performance of my cab.  I can use EQ to change the tone if I want or need.  I also run the stereo signal through an ADC equalizer before the 300 for global EQ when necessary. I find that more effective and easier to dial in than taking up an extra block in my patches and it works across all my banks wherever I am.

 

I also have the DT25HD and I run it into either one or two of my 2X12 cabs.  I connect with the L6 link.  For my ears I much prefer the preamp models with no cab selected. The full amp models and even the cab settings change the tone enough that I begin to hear the dreaded fizz. I don't get that with the pre's and no cab.  The tone is a little fatter and a little less presence but I can EQ if I need it.  I really like the tone of my cabs anyways. If I had a combo it might be different since Line 6 designed it to use the cab sims and when you use the DT without a POD, there is cab simulation by default.

 

Since you are using a 4X12 guitar cab, it will not act like a FR cab.  It has it's own color, feel, reactance, whatever...  You may want to see what your tones are like with out the POD cab sim.  Let your own cab do the work.  Take some time to build set lists with various combinations, full, pre, cab, no cab etc... with no other effects and just listen to them and see what you like as you switch back and forth.  Even the guitar you use makes a difference. It's your gear and ears and no matter what we think about ours, you have to find what works for you!  Most of all have fun doing it...   :)


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#12 NinoScholz

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 02:57 PM

Radatat - thanks for the insight. I always go with no Cab models. I recently swapped the Emi big blocks in my Splawn cab for a V30/G12T75 X pattern. This combo is great for distorted guitar and the pod is no different. I just got back from practice and frankly it SLAYED!!! No problem sounding good next to my other guitarists Splawn Quickrod. Plus i have killer cleans from the pod too.We play alot of covers with many effects (rage against the machine for example) and the Pod is pulling it all off with flying colors. The physical cabinet can really make or break the tones coming from the pod.

 

I'm sticking with the full models. After todays practice, I was clear as a bell in the mix (2 guitar band) with my new speakers, sounds great. Also - got a dead on SRV tone with the Fender vibrolux model.

 

Full amp models, no cab models --> Tube power --> good cabinet = Great live tone


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#13 joel_brown

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 08:13 PM

This is why I like this forum.  Something that should have been obvious for me to try but didn't. 

 

Full Amp, no cab model, into tube power amp and cab.  I've been using PreAmp with cab into tube power amp and cab. 

 

I'm really happy with my tone and feel but when I can press a few buttons and maybe get something better, what the hell...

 

Just for grins, I backed to back my Marshall JCM900 with new ECC83s tubes in the preamp and new EL34M power tubes versus the PODHD into the JCM900 power section.  It's really hard to tell the differance, other than the PODHD has less noise.


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#14 NinoScholz

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 08:56 PM

 

 

I'm really happy with my tone and feel but when I can press a few buttons and maybe get something better, what the hell...

 

 

 

Yup, couldnt have said it better myself. Definitely one of the things i love about using the pod, or a modeler in general.


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#15 NinoScholz

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 08:34 AM

I've changed my tune on this.Havent tried it live yet, but im pretty sure the Pres are going to sound better in a band setting. Last gig i was getting a bit too much "high end noise" from the full models. Not humming or anything, just within the tone there was more processed sound than i'd like. I've set all my patches to pre amp only, and the results are good so far. Lacks some of the tube type feel, but ithink up loud that will change with my 50/50 cranked up. Will report back after next weekends gig


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#16 gchaddock1972

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:00 AM

So i run my Pod HD Pro into a Mesa 50/50 power amp and a 4x12 V30/G12T75 Cab. On my pod, i run in stack pwr amp mode with the cab modeling off. When setting my tones up, i've always felt like i get a better tone using the full models (power amp included) vs preamp only models, but i have not tried the pre-only models yet in a band setting. Once i get to practice, i'm always wanting to test my latest tweaks to my usual full amp model patches - and i never really tweak at the gig. GRanted, i really feel like i'm getting some great, realistic tones from the full models, but i'm always looking to improve my tone. I realize in theory the "pre-only" models make more sense with my setup, but i'm going by my ears.

 

So my question for those using the pod live with a power amp and cab - do you use the full models or preamp only models. Would love to hear some other folks' experience on this and what you think of each. Thanks!

I use my pod with a TS100 Carvin tubed power amp, and two 12" line6 speakers. They were from an old Flextone IILX. I use full amp models and cabs on studio mode because you get more tone variation with it set up that way. It does take some tweeking but the pay off is much greater. I love what you said about using your ears as the final judge and not "what it's supposed to be". People are so stupid. These are not tubed preamps, it's digital so why worry about what's supposed to be. I don't even try to use a particular model when trying to mimic a guitarist tone. I just use the amp model that sounds the best.

 

P.S. are you tweeking the Master % SAG % and Bias%/XBias % if not you are missing so much more tone enhancement. Throw both bias % on 100 for more of a fender tone sound.     


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#17 NinoScholz

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Posted 22 November 2013 - 11:18 AM

Hello gchaddock! Yeah i've messed with the Sag, Bias etc quite a bit. It does make a nice difference. I like getting the sag just enough to add that tube feel without compromising the attack too much. So you are basically modelling the whole rig before the flextone speaker, whereas i am using my power amp and real cab to shape the tone as well. I bought v30's specifically for that reason.

 

I hear the carvin TS100 is pretty transparent so that makes sense the way you are using it. Like you said, as long as you find somethign that sounds good to you that's all that matters - there are so many options, especially once you start using cab models and dual amps, there can be no "right" way.

 

I'm gonna give the preonly models a whirl at next gig, and if I'm not blown away, i'll go back to tweaking the full models, turning the master down a little to ease up on the power modeling. I've got to try it with the band to really judge the tone.

 

Can't wait to try out  my current patches at band volume! thats one of the joys of using a modeler - almost like showing up with a new amp everyweek sometimes.


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#18 NinoScholz

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 10:53 AM

Update - last night i used the pre-amp only models at a gig for the first time. no contest, totally slays the full amp models at high volume. again I'm using a mesa tube power amp for power into a splawn 4x12.

 
I had always used the full models since they sound amazing at low volume, but once things got loud they kinda lost definition and low end. With the preamp-only models, my rhythm distortion sounded clear as a bell, killer low end, totally amp like. :yesway:
 
Still use the full models for SRV type tones, but for everything else, including cleans, i've gone to preamp only - not looking back.

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#19 joel_brown

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:58 AM

Sounds like we both do the exact same thing.  Except I use Marshall amps and cabs.

 

A couple tricks I picked up is the Resonance, Low Cut, and Presence can really help with the final polishing of the tone.  Atleast for me, they made a significant differance in getting the tone just the way I wanted.  I usually had a problem with too much low frequencies and getting the mids to come through clearly without having that biting treble that hurts.  Those three knobs made a big differance. 

 

It's been a looooong road but, I think, I might, maybe, possibly, not sure, almost be 100% happy with my tone.  There I said it...


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#20 NinoScholz

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 01:33 PM

It's been a looooong road but, I think, I might, maybe, possibly, not sure, almost be 100% happy with my tone.  There I said it...

 

Joel - yeah I have just got to that point too. I've been satisfied with the pod for some time now, but i was always scratching my head a little at the gigs with the aforementioned clarity issue. After last night, i'm 100% loving my tone from the Pod HD and mesa 50/50. Having used a Mesa dual recto before going to the pod, i feel like my tone is as good as it was then, only now i can cover all the tones and crazy effects (we cover Rage against the machine) in our cover band with one box, not to mention lead boosts, all with the push of a single button - no tap dancing..

 

Set up and breakdown is simple, i only have one cable on stage for the FBV controller, tone is now top freakin notch. Also, since i run my cab in stereo i use the side that's not miced as a stage monitor i can turn up without affecting the PA mix. I couldn't do that with a mono amp head. 

 

We have another gig tonight. I worked out all my volume matching issues last night at our regular gig, so i'm ready to kill it at a new venue tonight!! HAIL THE POD HD!!!! Yup, i'm that happy with it

 

by the way joel - those settiings you mentioned are in the cab block right? I keep the cab models off.


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#21 joel_brown

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:11 PM

Yep they're in the cab block.  That's something that can work for you and against you at the same time.  Atleast for me I found the 4x12 XXL V-30 and 4038 Ribbon Mic worked for me once I tamed it with Low Cut, Resonance, and a little Presence.  Not recommending you change what you have by any means.  There's so many ways to setup the PODHD and depending on your guitar, pickups, amps, speakers, etc., whatever way works is the right way. 

 

I think that's why people get frustrated sometimes.  There's soooo many ways to configure, setup, route, and tweak everything that it can be a little overwhelming.  I guess that's the trade off for versatility.


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#22 NinoScholz

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 12:05 AM

Yep they're in the cab block.  That's something that can work for you and against you at the same time.  Atleast for me I found the 4x12 XXL V-30 and 4038 Ribbon Mic worked for me once I tamed it with Low Cut, Resonance, and a little Presence.  Not recommending you change what you have by any means.  There's so many ways to setup the PODHD and depending on your guitar, pickups, amps, speakers, etc., whatever way works is the right way. 

 

I think that's why people get frustrated sometimes.  There's soooo many ways to configure, setup, route, and tweak everything that it can be a little overwhelming.  I guess that's the trade off for versatility.

 

I couldnt have said this better myself. just got back from gig#2. Another winner,  now my only issue is not having anything left that needs an upgrade in my rack! just kidding ill find sometrhing


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