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Rf Mute Errors, Daisy Chains & Rf1 Versus Rf2

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#1 fergusom0

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:27 AM

We run a system of 6 XDV70's but 1 transmitter seems to be gives us far more dropouts than the others. We are running RF2 mode (reading here it looks like we should revert to RF1 for a start)

 

However we run an RF scan and see that all our mic's currently seem to be sat in sweet spots between the RF noise from school routers.

 

The strange thing we found is the the problematic mic had registered 306 mute errors during use in 1 morning and the other mics all registered less than 4, a couple had no errors at all recorded.

 

So

Q1, what is an RF mute error.

Q2, it it likely that we have a dud mic/broken mic antenna

Q3, Should we really revert to RF1 mode

Q4, is it acceptable to combine 6 receivers via 2 remote directional antenna's. I think I read somewhere that 4 was the max then I read 6?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 


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#2 RonMarton

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 12:17 PM

...We are running RF2 mode (reading here it looks like we should revert to RF1 for a start)...

 

Well Mark, RF1 is certainly the default mode for my nine systems, (eight V70s, one V75) …the reasoning for which you'll see explained in this old discussion from the archive: http://line6.com/sup...84358?tstart=30

 

...Q1, what is an RF mute error?...

 

I'm only guessing, but I'd assume that particular log would show the number of times (from last power-up) that the receiver "decided" that the data as received wasn't adequate ...and so muted itself to prevent any nastiness from being audible and/or possibly damaging "downstream" equipment.

 

...Q2, it it likely that we have a dud mic/broken mic antenna?...

 

My feeling is that an RF propagation problem from a given transmitter (be it the antenna or something else) is always possible, but not "likely".

 

It's easy to diagnose, however, by re-tuning the suspect unit to "mate" with another receiver that's hitherto remained trouble-free while operating on its "own" different channel.

 

Those symptoms then "following" the suspect transmitter to it's "new" receiver would then seem to identify it as having some kind of propagation problem.

 

...Q3, Should we really revert to RF1 mode?...

 

Asked and answered, Your Honour.  :)

 

...Q4, is it acceptable to combine 6 receivers via 2 remote directional antenna's. I think I read somewhere that 4 was the max then I read 6?...

 

Provided that termination plugs are used on the last receiver in a "daisy chain" of XD-V70 receivers, (and that they're all wired with the correct, short LMR-195 "jumper" and long LMR-195 antenna cables) it's reasonable to expect that a maximum of SIX will indeed work well from a single pair of correctly configured antennae.

 

Even so, my eight receivers are configured as two correctly terminated,  "daisy chained" and rack-mounted "kits" of four, each carrying its own pairs of antennae.

 

I have (on occasion) also successfully operated one of those "daisy chains" with my single self-terminating V75 (my "stand-alone-handheld and update kit") being its "fifth" receiver from a single pair of P180 paddles, but only using the RF1 frequency scheme.

 

Aside from being "self-terminating", (so not requiring those terminating plugs in the last BNC pair of a V70 "daisy chain") XD-V75 receivers are the model that's specified as only "allowing" a maximum of four to each their "daisy chains".

 

Given the nature of the data (and possible errors) in question, I'd be VERY reluctant to "daisy chain" more than four receivers of either type whenever RF2 is being used.


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#3 dboomer

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 02:00 PM

Q1, what is an RF mute error.

Q2, it it likely that we have a dud mic/broken mic antenna

Q3, Should we really revert to RF1 mode

Q4, is it acceptable to combine 6 receivers via 2 remote directional antenna's. I think I read somewhere that 4 was the max then I read 6?

 

Hey Mark

 

An RF mute as Ron says, is when communication is lost for a suficient time that the reciever cannot produce audio ... so it mutes the output.  This is a real drop-out.

 

The antenna on a handheld or a bodypack?  Does this transmitter have a problem when tied to all of your receivers or just one?  Does it work better on a different channel?

 

I would use RF1 mode if it does not interfere with your wi-fi too much or you don't care about or even have wi-fi.

 

Yes, you can use 6 V70 receivers (but only 4 V75s) linked together.  You MUST use the terminators on the last unit.

 

Is your problem transmitter on the last receiver in the chain?



#4 RonMarton

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 03:33 PM

...Is your problem transmitter on the last receiver in the chain?

 

It seems weird, Don...

 

…But just FYI, the "side-ears signal-strength" indicators for RF reception on the LCDs of my two V70 kits invariably seem to show the "terminating" or "last" receiver in my "daisy chains" to be the most robust and the rest of the "chain" being progressively less so, with the "first" in my "chains" seemingly having the least RF sensitivity, …albeit with me almost never having suffered any drop-out problems in RF1.

 

(That applies whether or not I've added my V75 as that "terminator", fifth receiver.)

 

"…I'll be back…"  :)


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#5 dboomer

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:17 PM

The indicators in the LCD window of the receivers are true RSSI indication (signal strength).  The RF LED ladder in the transmitter status window shows data quality.  So it may be just the way you describe it (depending on a bunch of things) as signal strength and data quality while usually linked are not the same thing.



#6 RonMarton

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 05:34 PM

…And for my range of itinerant applications in a huge variety of venues, it's exactly that depth and those analytical qualities of the XD-V75's (and my upgraded V70's) diagnostics that I feel is but one (albeit possibly the leading) feature among many that put them way ahead of any of the wireless systems available for under about five times their asking price.

 

In particular, any "dropping" of those LED ladders seems to be a clear and valuable advance warning of tablets or laptops that may have "walked in" with their WiFi still radiating, whereupon RSSI often remains steadfastly "strong", ...but even the RF1 scheme may be overwhelmed should those devices come to be radiating within a metre of my receiving antennae or the receivers themselves. 


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#7 fergusom0

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:10 AM

Q1, what is an RF mute error.

Q2, it it likely that we have a dud mic/broken mic antenna

Q3, Should we really revert to RF1 mode

Q4, is it acceptable to combine 6 receivers via 2 remote directional antenna's. I think I read somewhere that 4 was the max then I read 6?

 

Hey Mark

 

An RF mute as Ron says, is when communication is lost for a suficient time that the reciever cannot produce audio ... so it mutes the output.  This is a real drop-out.

 

The antenna on a handheld or a bodypack?  Does this transmitter have a problem when tied to all of your receivers or just one?  Does it work better on a different channel?

 

I would use RF1 mode if it does not interfere with your wi-fi too much or you don't care about or even have wi-fi.

 

Yes, you can use 6 V70 receivers (but only 4 V75s) linked together.  You MUST use the terminators on the last unit.

 

Is your problem transmitter on the last receiver in the chain?

We are running 6 V70's. Transmitter is a HH. The problem seems to be frequency/channel independent. I think however the receiver may be the last in the chain. Would be a good idea as suggested here to try with one of the other receivers. So many permutations of tests possible - but I like this one. The 6 are an install in a rack and although it was a while ago I am sure I they are terminated. Note to self/team to check! 

 

Many thanks for replies.


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#8 fergusom0

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:14 AM

Well Mark, RF1 is certainly the default mode for my nine systems, (eight V70s, one V75) …the reasoning for which you'll see explained in this old discussion from the archive: http://line6.com/sup...84358?tstart=30

 

 

I'm only guessing, but I'd assume that particular log would show the number of times (from last power-up) that the receiver "decided" that the data as received wasn't adequate ...and so muted itself to prevent any nastiness from being audible and/or possibly damaging "downstream" equipment.

 

 

My feeling is that an RF propagation problem from a given transmitter (be it the antenna or something else) is always possible, but not "likely".

 

It's easy to diagnose, however, by re-tuning the suspect unit to "mate" with another receiver that's hitherto remained trouble-free while operating on its "own" different channel.

 

Those symptoms then "following" the suspect transmitter to it's "new" receiver would then seem to identify it as having some kind of propagation problem.

 

 

Asked and answered, Your Honour.  :)

 

 

Provided that termination plugs are used on the last receiver in a "daisy chain" of XD-V70 receivers, (and that they're all wired with the correct, short LMR-195 "jumper" and long LMR-195 antenna cables) it's reasonable to expect that a maximum of SIX will indeed work well from a single pair of correctly configured antennae.

 

Even so, my eight receivers are configured as two correctly terminated,  "daisy chained" and rack-mounted "kits" of four, each carrying its own pairs of antennae.

 

I have (on occasion) also successfully operated one of those "daisy chains" with my single self-terminating V75 (my "stand-alone-handheld and update kit") being its "fifth" receiver from a single pair of P180 paddles, but only using the RF1 frequency scheme.

 

Aside from being "self-terminating", (so not requiring those terminating plugs in the last BNC pair of a V70 "daisy chain") XD-V75 receivers are the model that's specified as only "allowing" a maximum of four to each their "daisy chains".

 

Given the nature of the data (and possible errors) in question, I'd be VERY reluctant to "daisy chain" more than four receivers of either type whenever RF2 is being used.

Thanks


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