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Xd V35 Slight But Audible Distortion Hi Mid Range + Questions !


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#1 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:46 AM

Hi guys,

 

This is my first post here !

 

I recently bought a XD-V35. I knew it would be a great product, since I'm very happy with my G50 (line6 wireless guitar system)

 

Anyway, it works very well, and I like the sound a lot.... but.... when the vocalist of my band sings powerful notes, there's a slight noticeable distortion in the high medium range. I'm wondering where the problem is located... maybe there is too much being asked of the capsule itself - though I doubt it. Maybe there's a small preamp in the transmitter just behind the transducer itself, that can not bear so much pressure without distorting. In this case, I would search for a 10 dB pad, but there's no such thing on the mic.

 

To solve that problem, I've been thinking of 2 ideas :

 

- Buying another capsule. Do you know other capsules more "accepting" in regard of high volume ? Are there capsules with/without preamp, with/without 10 dB /20 dB pad ? I must say that I tried a Beta58 capsule, but I was surprised by the fact that the output volume is *wayyyyy* quieter that the line 6 capsule - and then the S/R ratio is quite bad. Is this normal ? What about Heil capsules ?

 

- Buying a XD-V55 or 75 to replace my v35 (I will use the 35 for another application). Questions : is the Line6 capsule the same for the 3 models (I know the V55 and V75 add more mic emulations, but what about the physical capsule itself?) - (I need a cardioid - not super-cardioid). Is there a 10dB pad in the transmitter itself (I'm not talking about the volume adjustment on the receiver) ?

 

Any hint/ideas would be greatly appreciated !

 

Thanks a lot !


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#2 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 06:46 AM

Welcome aboard !

 

...maybe there is too much being asked of the capsule itself - though I doubt it...

 

Me too, ...but others (and I) have indeed had some vocalists cause exactly this problem.

 

...Buying another capsule. Do you know other capsules more "accepting" in regard of high volume ? Are there capsules with/without preamp, with/without 10 dB /20 dB pad ? I must say that I tried a Beta58 capsule, but I was surprised by the fact that the output volume is *wayyyyy* quieter that the line 6 capsule - and then the S/R ratio is quite bad. Is this normal ? What about Heil capsules ?

 

It seems to me that, being Line 6's "entry level" (cheapest) system, the V35 is really intended to do just one thing ...and I believe it does that (and only that) really well.

 

That "one thing" is to provide the cheapest way of obtaining a classic SM58-like sound (or a beltpack alternative) in a wireless system that can be counted on to cover 99% of the applications faced by the gigging performer.

 

Aside from often doubling the original investment, you've already struck one of the anomalies that attend capsule swapping on this system.

 

...Buying a XD-V55 or 75 to replace my v35 (I will use the 35 for another application)...

 

Now, we're on to something !

 

Check out this short conversation: http://line6.com/sup...put-distortion/ which covers a range of solutions that have definitely solved exactly such problems when I've faced them with my four V70 (THH12) and one V75 handhelds.

 

(Sadly, the cheaper V55 "misses out" on the internal model that's my first choice solution in such cases, being Line 6's faithful emulation of the beautiful articulation from Audix's OM5 vocalist microphone.)

 

An even cheaper solution (at around half the cost of an entire system) that you haven't yet considered might be to only buy a V75 handheld by itself, with your existing THH06 handheld becoming a "back-up".

 

(When working to your existing XD-V35 receiver, the newer handheld will be restricted to the first six of up to fourteen channels that it might otherwise use.) 

 

It's known as a V75-HHTX and should it not actually be one of their regularly stocked items, your local outlet can order it for you using Line 6 part no: 98-033-0044.

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/XDV75HHT/

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/line6_tx_v75.htm


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#3 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:17 AM

Hey Ron !

 

Thanks a LOT for your input.

 

Yes indeed, I listened to the sample and that's the kind of problem I have -though less pronounced. I do think it is related with specific techniques of some vocalists... and obviously, you can't ask the perform to do things differently to adapt to the technique. :P

 

Your idea of getting one handheld V75 is brilliant ! You mean that the Audix mic is modeled in the transmitter, not the receiver, right ? (just to be sure). And then if I still have problems, I'll be able to try other capsules as well. That sounds awesome.

 

But anyway, I'm considering getting the whole V75 for another reason... I want to use both receiver outputs (for one mic), one for the FOH, one for our inear monitoring system. Sometimes, I get some ground loops problems between our monitoring system and the FOH. The idea I have is to use one Line6 receiver for the FOH, and another receiver for the monitoring system. That way, there won't be *any* physical between the two circuits. Of course in that case, if I use my  XD V35, I'll have to stick to one of the 6 first channels.


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#4 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:05 AM

...You mean that the Audix mic is modelled in the transmitter, not the receiver, right ? (just to be sure). And then if I still have problems, I'll be able to try other capsules as well...

 

That's right. All of the models "live" in transmitter firmware. The one that I use for exactly this situation is labelled "o5" and mimics the classic Audix OM5 wired mic.

 

...But anyway, I'm considering getting the whole V75 for another reason... I want to use both receiver outputs (for one mic), one for the FOH, one for our in ear monitoring system. Sometimes, I get some ground loops problems between our monitoring system and the FOH. The idea I have is to use one Line6 receiver for the FOH, and another receiver for the monitoring system...

 

I'm a little confused by that, as most of us drive IEM systems from a line level "Aux", "Matrix" or another "buss" output of our FOH desks, as (among other reasons) the Line 6 philosophy of their receivers being "one for one" replacements for cabled mics results in only (the far lower) mic level being available from their outputs.

 

Could it be that the "hum" you've heard during an attempt to "parallel" from your V35 receiver is more the product of your IEM's base station transmitter struggling for gain than just an earth loop ?


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#5 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:20 AM

Yes, that's a feature that I miss and that was available in the Shure PG24 receiver : the XLR outputs a mic level, and there's another output at line level. (So Line6, if you read this, that would be a cool feature to add to your products ;) ).

 

About the hum, it's not a matter of gain. Generally, I can suppress it by placing some transformer/isolators here or there between the receiver and the FOH or between the receiver and the monitoring system, but I haven't found yet a solution that works in every venue, which is a pain in the **s (but once I've found the right cabling set up, it works very very nicely). That's why I want to try the solution of having 2 receivers. That way, I will have zero problem, whatever the venue. Using my spare XD V35 will be ideal for this I think :).


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#6 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:22 AM

(forgot to mention that when I switched from my Shure wireless mic to the Line6, I added a small preamp to compensate for the gain. So our IEM works with the exact same line level as before)


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#7 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:24 AM

So the only thing sent to your IEM is that one mic ?


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#8 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:27 AM

Oh no... we have 6 IEMs, with 6 different mixes of all instruments. The mic is on one track of a line mixer.


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#9 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:31 AM

Why then do you need to "parallel" at your XD-V35 receiver ?

 

I would think that all six IEMs are being driven from line level outputs at the FOH mixer.  


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#10 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 09:57 AM

It's because it would imply making 6 different mixes from the FOH and feeding the 6 IEMs. Even if it was technically possible in all venues, 80% of the times, we have 20 minutes for install/line check everything (festivals, you know). With our system, we don't need to spend any time at all on monitoring problems : everything is set up before hand. All the change-over time is focused on getting the right sound for the audience...


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#11 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:03 AM

So each IEM only "hears its own" mic ?

 

Sorry to keep on about this, but it would be great to arrive at a cheaper solution for a problem that, to my mind, shouldn't exist in the first place.


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#12 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:33 AM

Ha ha, no, it's difficult to explain :D. Would be easier with a drawing.

 

Each musician, including the singer, plugs into a "custom" line mixer (6 inputs + clic track) which resides on stage. The mixer itself has 6 mono outputs (line level), feeding 1 IEM each. On each mono output, we have a mix of the whole band... but it is a different mix for each musician, since for example, the drummer wants to hear the bass, the clic track, but not the synth - I, guitar player, hate to have to loud the bass - the singer hates the click, etc, etc...  And obviously, there's no time to redo 6 mixes each time we play, so mixes are prepared beforehand, and never touched while we tour.

 

Huh, I don't know if I'm much clearer ? ;)


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#13 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 10:43 AM

...Huh, I don't know if I'm much clearer ? ;)

 

You are.

 

Just what I needed to hear, with maybe only one more detail required to save you tying up a whole receiver...

 

…Please describe the input and output connectors of the mixer you guys use to create what amounts to your 6 x 6 monitoring matrix. (A very elegant solution, by the way !)

 

3-pin XLs all around ?

 

3-pin XLs in, but tip-sleeve (guitar) jacks out, or vice-versa ?

 

Any RCA plugs involved ? 


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#14 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 11:20 AM

Ha ha, nice to talk about all this. That's what these forums are all about !

 

Remember I cautiously wrote "custom" line mixer ?

 

So, here is the whole thing : we have very little time to install... but we have also very little space in the car when we tour, so everything has to fit in 6U rack. IEMs + mixer + my own guit preamp (1U). So our "custom mixer" is made of 3 SM Pro Audio DI8E. You can see the thing here : http://www.thomann.d..._audio_di8e.htm.

Every musician plugs into one input (there are 8 available). On each input, there is a "Link" output : we plug a very short cable from the "link" output" to the input of the next DI8E.

 

On the rear of the DI8E, there are 1 L and 1 R jack signal, which is a mix of all the inputs that are ajusted by the potentiometers : each track has a volume AND a pan. That way, we create a different mix on the R and L outputs : 2 different mixes. Since we have 3 DI8E, we end up with 6 different mixes.

 

So, everything is plugged with jack Tip Sleeve. No XLR involved in our monitoring system.

 

To add some more details to the whole picture : The mic output is sent through a TC electronic M300 (I know, it sounds insane to have everything packed in a 6U rack, ha ha !) to the 1 DI8E. Now I have switched to the XDV35, I added a small preamp ART Dual Pre before entering the M300.

 

And of course, the mic is sent to the FOH via a XLR cable.

 

Now, I'm pretty sure you want a picture of that insane set up, right ? So here it is ;). The M300 and the other IEM is on the back of the rack. The XDV35 is not plugged here. I generally put it on the top of the rack.

 

pav8.jpg


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#15 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 11:23 AM

And by the way, if you want to see this in action, here is a video of a show last week-end. You can see this very rack on the right side of the drumkit.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=08RI7QoId6Q


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#16 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 12:43 PM

Got it.

 

So here's what I'd be doing to create the hum-free split you need:

  1. Make up or buy a correctly wired 3-pin XL "y cord" parallel splitter cable, 1 x XL female to 2 x XL males.
  2. Use that y-cord adapter cable from your XD-V35's XL output into both "sides" of your (excellent) ART Dual Pre's "front" XL mic inputs.
  3. You'll now need a pair of specially made-up jack cables (details below) to run from the ART Dual Pre's balanced output "left" and "right" jacks to both sides of your wonderful M300 processor.
  4. One standard tip-sleeve "guitar" jack to jack cable would then plug from the first of your M300's rear panel output jacks to "your input" of that really ingenious Di8E matrix.
  5. Another custom cable, this time standard tip-sleeve "guitar" jack to 3-pin XL male, (details below) would then provide a line level feed from the other M300 output jack to FOH. (If, for some weird reason, the FOH guys can't handle line level, find a cheaper version of this http://www.thomann.d..._audio_di8e.htm and insert it in the line.) 

(The only slight "limitation" to using both "halves"of your TC Electronic M300 like this is that it needs to be configured so that both of those halves operate in "parallel" or "stereo" mode for FOH to get the same effect that we'd be hearing on stage, …something easily done by leaving its rear push-button in the "out" or "top diagram" position, which is most likely how you already have it set.)  

 

Special Cables:

 

For the above Point 3, it's absolutely vital that the TRS plugs at the ART preamp do NOT have anything connected (or accidentally shorting) to their "sleeves" or "shield" connections or metal cases.

 

Instead their "tips" must connect to the (equivalent) "tips" on the "guitar-style" tip-sleeve plugs, with their "ring" contacts being the ONLY things connected to the outer "sleeve" or "shield" contacts of the "guitar-style" plugs that go into your M300.

 

A similar warning applies to the above Point 5, only this adapter is far easier to make, as all we effectively end up doing is "chopping" a tip-sleeve jack off a standard (if much shorter) tip-sleeve to tip-sleeve "guitar" or "patch" lead ...and replacing it with an XL male plug.

 

The final hum-eliminating "trick" lies in only wiring the inner or "tip" conductor to pin 2 and the outer "shield" or "sleeve" conductor to pin 3 of that XL male plug, with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING connected to pin 1 of the XL plug that feeds line level to FOH.  


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#17 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 01:12 PM

Wow, I have to read this calmly to fully understand :D

 

One thing : we use the M300 (very nice box indeed) only for monitoring. The FOH mixing desk gets the dry signal. So I think I just can send one of the 2 male XL directly to the FOH console. The other one in the M300, right ? In this case, should I make a special XL short cable, with pin 1 unsoldered ? And this means I wouldn't use the unbalanced output of the XD V35 at all.


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#18 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 01:26 PM

I also bought recently an ART Split com Pro.

 

http://artproaudio.c...ct/splitcompro/

 

I think it has that "ground lift" feature that I *feel* is the basis of what you indicate.

 

Do you think I could use it to avoid making too different cables ? In this case, I would use the Split Com Pro instead of the Y cable. Sending the Main mic output to the FOH. The isolated output has the ground lift feature, so that it would isolate the ground of the FOH from the ground of the M300. I could use the cable you suggest in point3, to further eliminate one ground connection between ART and M300 ?


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#19 RonMarton

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:00 PM

...One thing : we use the M300 (very nice box indeed) only for monitoring...

 

Woo-hoo ! The luxury of an M300 just for in-ear ambience !  :)

 

(I like your style, guys…!)  :lol:

 

Ok then...

 

...And this means I wouldn't use the unbalanced output of the XD V35 at all.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

As the M300 now seems to be for you guys to enjoy in private, the system hook-up should accordingly be as follows:

  1. Correctly wired XL y-cord "splitter" from XD-V 35 to both XL input "halves" of the ART Pre, exactly as above. 
  2. One "custom" jack cable (made up as per the instructions relating to point 3 of my original description) that takes a balanced TRS line output from the ART (let's say its "left") to an unbalanced input of your magic M300, for "passing on" from the M300's mono output jack (via a standard "guitar style" jack to jack "patch" cable) to your Di8E monitor matrix (also as above) …and...
  3. Yet a different style of cable to provide a balanced line level output to FOH from the other output (let's say the "right") of the ART Pre.  

That last cable's available "off the shelf", as it's a standard TRS balanced to XL male adapter that has the "tip" going to the XLM's pin 2, the "ring" going to pin 3 and the "sleeve" to pin 1, …with the option of the tubular 40dB in-line attenuator I mentioned, if required.

 

I also bought recently an ART Split com Pro.

 

http://artproaudio.c...ct/splitcompro/

 

I think it has that "ground lift" feature that I *feel* is the basis of what you indicate.

 

Do you think I could use it to avoid making two different cables ?...

 

Sorry, but I don't think the SplitComPro would fully solve this problem either.

 

As you rightly say, its ground-lift would indeed work as an earth-loop preventer, but only for AN XL PAIR of the many possible sources of hum in this unique set-up, (only working for those possibly plugged into its XL input "side") ...meaning that you'd still need custom jack cabling anyway.

 

Why not keep it the for high quality recording jobs and so forth that it's designed to do ?


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#20 vynceleff

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:15 PM

Great ! Thanks a lot for all the explanations !!!

 

I'll try that at our next show (29.11) and I'll report here. Normally, I will also buy the V75-HHTX Handheld, and I'll test the om5 setting.

 

I'm eager to test all that !

 

Thank you again !


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