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Had Enough Of The Hd500...buying A Kemper


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#21 hurghanico

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:33 AM

...i want my own sound...

 

me too

 

just to clarify, the meaning of my last post wasn't how to copy someone else sound, but rather to find your own voice with the gear you have


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#22 Jeffsco

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:38 AM

When I hear the statement "Tone is in the fingers"   I take it with a grain of salt and I strongly differentiate between the concepts of "Tone" and "Sound"

 

 I've seen/ heard  footage of Edward Van Halen noodling thru a small practice type amp during a Party at his house. It's a little practice / Champ type affair with a little 8" non descript speaker. Doubt there was even tubes in it. The tone is HORRIBLE....but the playing, the riffs,the attack of the strings, inflections, etc... It's sounds like Edward Van Halen. No mistaking who's playing.

 

So....his "Tone" sounds like the terrible, consitpated / small speaker sputtering that those hideous little amps produce. It does not sound like the first Van Halen album..or any album in between. Now..I've heard him at NAMM, plugging in thru an assorted array of the 5150 series amps. Sounds Edward Van Halen...sounds like the Albums we know / love/hate... That's his tone..that's the amp and guitar and the settings he used.

 

A musicians "sound " is in his fingers...but the "tone" he gets is dependant on the amp, gain settings, distortion pedal, EQ at the amp, EQ at the board, and our perception of that sound is further augnmented / distorted by the accuracy of what we are listening back on.

 

So....while a piece of gear will not change a musicians sound...that piece of gear has EVERYTHING to do with creating a musicians TONE!

 

That's another reason why I'm pursueing the Kemper route....in addition to ease of use there is a difference in the unit's ability to produce tone.


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#23 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:05 AM

That's another reason why I'm pursueing the Kemper route....in addition to ease of use there is a difference in the unit's ability to produce tone.

 

If I may suggest: since you're getting the Kemper, also get the Eleven with Expansion Pack. For under $400, you can try it out and if you don't like it, you can resell it on Ebay, I doubt that you'll lose any money on Resale. If you like it, you can return the Kemper and put the couple of grands on something else.  SO far  based on my research it seems that there are small improvements as you spend more money, but nothing mind blowing or signifcant. It bottoms down to getting comfortable and enjoying the specific piece of gear where it inspires you to play. The HD500 can still inspire me to play but now that I have the eleven, the HD500 is a controller only.

 

In the Eleven, The Bogner EXtacy three models are dead on, the fender Super Reverb and Vibros are amazing, I honestly think that all the amps are amazing in the Eleven, 4 band parametric EQ and amazing reverbs! 

 

Just to clarify I still use the HD500 to control the eleven and I'm hoping a new update will improve things in the HD but as it stand, Eleven is so easy to get good tones and it sounds and react more like the amps it simulate.


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#24 Akeron

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:24 AM


Now, I'm not tempted to sell any of my amps or guitars because of this. But I do think that when it comes to gear and personal style, we care about it much, much more than the people listening to us. A big part of it is simply being comfortable with the way you personally can interact with the gear. That morning, I wasn't comfortable, but I was able to muddle through it.

 

I don't think that playing with a washing machine would be that funny, even if the audience can't tell the difference with an amp :)

 

 I've seen/ heard  footage of Edward Van Halen noodling thru a small practice type amp during a Party at his house. It's a little practice / Champ type affair with a little 8" non descript speaker. Doubt there was even tubes in it. The tone is HORRIBLE....but the playing, the riffs,the attack of the strings, inflections, etc... It's sounds like Edward Van Halen. No mistaking who's playing.

 

I agree. The technique is in the fingers, what you mute, what you don't mute etc. This is particularly true if you play with your fingers without a pick. I think most if not all the "stories" told by famous guitarists about magical fingers (Brian May telling about playing trough Jimi Hendrix amps for example) are made up or they were unaware of hidden gear...


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#25 toneman2121

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:35 AM

When I hear the statement "Tone is in the fingers"   I take it with a grain of salt and I strongly differentiate between the concepts of "Tone" and "Sound"

 

 I've seen/ heard  footage of Edward Van Halen noodling thru a small practice type amp during a Party at his house. It's a little practice / Champ type affair with a little 8" non descript speaker. Doubt there was even tubes in it. The tone is HORRIBLE....but the playing, the riffs,the attack of the strings, inflections, etc... It's sounds like Edward Van Halen. No mistaking who's playing.

 

So....his "Tone" sounds like the terrible, consitpated / small speaker sputtering that those hideous little amps produce. It does not sound like the first Van Halen album..or any album in between. Now..I've heard him at NAMM, plugging in thru an assorted array of the 5150 series amps. Sounds Edward Van Halen...sounds like the Albums we know / love/hate... That's his tone..that's the amp and guitar and the settings he used.

 

A musicians "sound " is in his fingers...but the "tone" he gets is dependant on the amp, gain settings, distortion pedal, EQ at the amp, EQ at the board, and our perception of that sound is further augnmented / distorted by the accuracy of what we are listening back on.

 

So....while a piece of gear will not change a musicians sound...that piece of gear has EVERYTHING to do with creating a musicians TONE!

 

That's another reason why I'm pursueing the Kemper route....in addition to ease of use there is a difference in the unit's ability to produce tone.

wrong


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#26 toneman2121

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:51 AM

i'm just tired of people posting on here saying they can't get the sound/tone/effect or whatever from the pods; old or new. then say. 'i'm gettin' this 'cause it's better', comparing line6 stuff to _______ (fill in the blank). why do they compare _______(fill in the blank) to line6 stuff? i'll tell you why. because line6 stuff is good. the stuff people compare it to because that's the standard. if you go to other gear sites line6 is there somewhere getting beat by their members. and stop comparing a $500 piece of gear to a $2000 piece of gear. would you rather hear me play through my gibson 30w goldtone and my 40w fender deville or van halen play through a pignose.

 

find something that costs $350 new like my hd bean, yeah i got a discount, then compare that to the hd bean. 

 

man, i like posting on the web, people have to listen and they can't interrupt :)


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#27 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:55 AM

If tone was "only" in the fingers then all guitar players would use the same guitar and the same amp. Granted almost all solid state and tube amps can be made to sound similar, but differences from the players' prospective are not only in the sound, but in how the guitar and the amp reacts to the fingers. Isn't that the number one reason why tube amps are perceived to be better to most players even though quite a few used solid state amps, DIme bag, Boston guitar player, T REx etc...


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#28 toneman2121

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:59 AM


If tone was "only" in the fingers then all guitar players would use the same guitar and the same amp. Granted almost all solid state and tube amps can be made to sound similar, but differences from the players' prospective are not only in the sound, but in how the guitar and the amp reacts to the fingers. Isn't that the number one reason why tube amps are perceived to be better to most players even though quite a few used solid state amps, DIme bag, Boston guitar player, T REx etc...


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#29 geeker

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:29 AM

gear is the comfort food to ones tone..... I bet every guitar player can dial in a tone that they like on any piece of equipment. Tone is subjective and personal......... What I would think is a killer tone will make someone else cringe with disgust.... I say go for the gear that makes you happy and inspires you.... I use a pocket POD to a small 15 watt Ibanez amp with no effects to practice tunes with..... simple and effective..... tone is about personality.... everyone is different...... 


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Is that?????????????


#30 Guitarmaniac64

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:10 AM

Although slightly off topic, I disagree with the statement "Tone Is In the Fingers" to a point. Yes the more talent you have the better you sound. But I've always said a great guitarist with a crap sound sounds like crap. But an average guitarist with a great sound sounds great.

Back on topic, the PODHD is difficult and complex and that may not be for everyone. I struggled for months with it and was very frustrated to the point of almost giving up and going a differant direction. Then I finally got it working the way I wanted and I couldn't be more satisfied. I use a somewhat differant live setup than most. I have a pair of Marshall amps in stereo, spread on opposite ends of the stage, and the PODHD allows me some very nice features to control the stereo effect.

I came very close to giving up and buying something else like Kemper, Eleven Rack, or AXE-FX. I'm very curious to hear the comparison from someone who seems to have had a similar experiance to myself and a number of other people.

I dont agree i once saw  Mattias IA Eklundh in a video from a french mall where he played thrue a simple russian dist pedal and a gorilla solid state combo and he sounded good and it was recorded thrue a videocam mic..

 

have a look for yourself 

 

And there are hundreds of stories about several famous guitarist that have played with shitty guitar trhue a shitty amp and sounded just like they ALWAYS have..

 

The same goes the other way around i have read that many people tried Jimi Hendrix rig and guitar when he was in England.

And they didn´t sound anything like Jimi.

 

I also read about people who have tried Van Halens guitar and amps when they where supporting them and they didn´t sound like Eddie.

 

so yes it is mostly in the FINGERS but if you then have great gear you will sound even better..


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#31 PremiumJones

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:06 AM

wrong

 

your wrong is wrong. :D

 

Seriously, its semantics for the most part. What we each call "tone" is a different thing. I agree with Jeffsco. Tone is in the gear. Sound/style/mojo/etc is in the player. You can substitute whatever words you want since none of them really have a standard definition.

 

To use an extreme example - if I am playing metal into a clean JC120 with no distortion pedals or processing of any kind, I am not going to get a good metal tone. I might play the parts well, I might have the aggression, attack, technique all down pat, but it wont sound right becuase the tone isnt right. Nothing I do with my fingers is going to change that.

 

If its James Hetfield, or Devin Townshend, or any other metal rhythm player you think is the bees knees... he still wont have the right tone with that rig. He might SOUND just like himself, but his TONE wont be right at all. Nothing he does with his fingers will change that.

 

Now, give me and James the same high end, high gain rig, tuned for metal, and you will see where the fingers matter. James will wipe the floor with me, and it will be entirely based on teh fingers, becuase everything else is equal. The tone coming from the amp will be the same, the sound of me and the sound of James will be very different.

 

So, call those things what you like. Call the first one "processing" and the second one "tone" if you like. Call them both "tone" and further muddy the waters if you like. :D  The fact remains that what comes out of the amp is not at all solely dependant on what you do with your hands. Signal processing/manipulation, be it digital modelling or old lollipop analog tone and gain stacks, make a crucial difference to what comes out of the amp.


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#32 toneman2121

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:14 AM

your wrong is wrong. :D

 

Seriously, its semantics for the most part. What we each call "tone" is a different thing. I agree with Jeffsco. Tone is in the gear. Sound/style/mojo/etc is in the player. You can substitute whatever words you want since none of them really have a standard definition.

 

To use an extreme example - if I am playing metal into a clean JC120 with no distortion pedals or processing of any kind, I am not going to get a good metal tone. I might play the parts well, I might have the aggression, attack, technique all down pat, but it wont sound right becuase the tone isnt right. Nothing I do with my fingers is going to change that.

 

If its James Hetfield, or Devin Townshend, or any other metal rhythm player you think is the bees knees... he still wont have the right tone with that rig. He might SOUND just like himself, but his TONE wont be right at all. Nothing he does with his fingers will change that.

 

Now, give me and James the same high end, high gain rig, tuned for metal, and you will see where the fingers matter. James will wipe the floor with me, and it will be entirely based on teh fingers, becuase everything else is equal. The tone coming from the amp will be the same, the sound of me and the sound of James will be very different.

 

So, call those things what you like. Call the first one "processing" and the second one "tone" if you like. Call them both "tone" and further muddy the waters if you like. :D  The fact remains that what comes out of the amp is not at all solely dependant on what you do with your hands. Signal processing/manipulation, be it digital modelling or old lollipop analog tone and gain stacks, make a crucial difference to what comes out of the amp.

ok. your right, i'm wrong 


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#33 spaceatl

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:47 AM

I have no doubt a Kemper sounds and feels great...I would love to have one.

 

I also have no doubt that an HD is going to be extremely frustrating when an XT tweaking approach is taken. I tried that...I complained at a time I really could not talk about it. Shortly after that it became very clear to me that the tonestacks on the amp models in HD actually work...They actually are very powerful and seem true to what I remember of the real amps I have used that are in there...XT tonestacks have a very narrow range where they are effective without becoming cartoon tone...Even still, outboard EQ was a must in those days as were tube buffers and additional outboard FX...But some folks seem to forget how much "Harmonic Convergence" help was needed for that hardware...I find HD needs very little additional help as XT did...But then my tweaking approach on HD is completely different from XT...

 

XT generation sounds good. It just never felt right to me at all on its own...decent feel, just nothing worth writing home about...The only way I could ever get my XT hardware close was too use a lot of outboard gear and a good bit of correction EQ...


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#34 Jeffsco

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:32 PM

Some great points being made here...It wasn't so much the XT Sound or tone or whatever. vs the HD500....it's primarily an ease of use issue. And I spent months working with it, reading ad nauseaum all the posts and studying meandbobbo's pdf (which is stellar by the way..) . After all was said and done..I had a handful of good tones from the HD 500 but I took several years off my life in the process. You really had to work hard with the HD to get it to do what you required from it.

 

I use Ozone and EQ / Tone match every patch I use with the original recording. Being able to use the Parametric EQ in the XT that read out in Hz was key. In using the HD I had bits of Meand Bobbo's pdf taped all over my walls in order figure out what frequencies i needed to alter to match what Ozone was telling me...all that time to dial in a 45% cut at what gain? And then you get a signal cain with the components you want and ...DISTORTION...cause something wasn't put in the same slot and was stereo instead of Mono???

 

Anyways folks...just got a call from the music store. The Kemper has arrived. I'm going down to pick it up this afternoon.I'll report back what I find in a few days.


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#35 SiCantwell

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

Played out with the new HD500 Saturday. Some of the best advice I got on my post asking for newbie tips was to keep it simple, get a handful of models I'm comfortable with and develop about four decent tones.
I had three decent tones; the rest all sounded a lot better in my living room than on stage with another loud guitar.
But the gig was successful and I figure that's a good start. I enjoy tinkering with the HD500 and I'm excited about the possibilities, even if I'm not there yet tonally.
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#36 Aeolianreflex

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

I can tell you from experience that tone is mostly from a persons touch and approach more than just about anything else. Most people confuse sonic quality from guitars amps and effects with tone. It is not tone. Being an old guy I've been around a lot of players who've spend thousands of dollars trying to sound like someone else and in they end they always sound like themselves. In 1978 I was lucky enough to score all access passes to a concert with Van Halen and Ted Nugent on the bill. During Van Halens sound check Ted played Eddies rig and sounded like Ted with a lot of reverb and flange. Eddie was back stage on Teds Birdland using Teds Fender twin playing Just What The Doctor Ordered and Snakeskin Cowboys and it still sounded like Eddie. That experience stuck with me.

Yeah, it was f'ing cool to be there that day.....


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#37 Akeron

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 01:48 AM

I can tell you from experience that tone is mostly from a persons touch and approach more than just about anything else. Most people confuse sonic quality from guitars amps and effects with tone. It is not tone. Being an old guy I've been around a lot of players who've spend thousands of dollars trying to sound like someone else and in they end they always sound like themselves. In 1978 I was lucky enough to score all access passes to a concert with Van Halen and Ted Nugent on the bill. During Van Halens sound check Ted played Eddies rig and sounded like Ted with a lot of reverb and flange. Eddie was back stage on Teds Birdland using Teds Fender twin playing Just What The Doctor Ordered and Snakeskin Cowboys and it still sounded like Eddie. That experience stuck with me.

Yeah, it was f'ing cool to be there that day.....

 

Maybe the confusion arises with the term "sound". What do you mean? If you do mean that it was clear who was playing it's a thing, but had he a sound similar to van halen records? I guess no. I too "sound" like myself through everything because that's the way I play but the tone could be very different from unit to unit...


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#38 toneman2121

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 02:04 AM

"Yeah, it was f'ing cool to be there that day.."

 

i bet it was!


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#39 joel_brown

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 04:34 AM

toneman, no need to sound defensive.  We can discuss and disagree.  Besides I didn't totally disagree. 

 

And btw I have had people all over the world hear me play.  I used to do studio work for Fox TV and co-wrote/performed theme songs back in the late 90s that were played world wide.

 

just to clarify things "tone is in the fingers" isn't my quote' i heard it from a prominent guitarist. and when you play all over the world, i'll pay attention.  


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#40 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:26 AM

"Tone is in the fingers", let's all ditch our amps, Pod HDs, Kempers, and seymour duncan pickups, Dimarzios, and go back to the original POD 2.0 and a pignose and save our money. Forget about TONE. This thread  was, the way I see it,  about "Production of Sound". You want to call that TONE, then talk about Production of tone. Injecting that phrase "tone is in the fingers" was just a red herring.

 

The OP seems to think it would be easier to produce sounds or tones using a Kemper and I wish him luck. I'm sure the problem is not in his fingers!  If I had the cash, I would do the same thing.


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