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Incorporating Old ( Good ) Qsc Speakers With Stagescape And L3m's


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#1 1finger

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

Hello men.
I own the stagescape mixer , 2 qsc k12's , and 2 ksubs.
I recently ordered 2 - Line6 L3m speakers , to add to my PA , due to a slight lack of sound for my venues.
I was going to buy a few more qsc - kw series , but since I already own the stagescape mixer , I felt compelled to buy the L3m's ; in order to get what I hope is , the most out of the mixer.

My question here is , how do I use the already great sounding qsc speakers and subs I already own , WITH the L3m's , in order to enhance my FOH sound ? I'm looking for connection scenarios and such ........

- I was thinking about 6Link to L3m's , then tapping off L3t's - to qsc k12's , then to ksubs.

- or , 6Link from stagescape to L3m's , then out of analog main LR stagescape - out to qsc k12's and ksub's.

Any knowledgeable Line6 people give me advice ? Thanks.
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#2 RonMarton

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 11:57 AM

I'm with you, in that I've always liked the sound, flexibility and build quality of QSC's as well.

 

It's just that the StageSource gear seems to have totally "reinvented" everything and made all of the others seem like "last year's model". :lol:

 

The truth is that you'll very quickly discover that you don't actually need advice, in that you'll very quickly find yourself configuring all manner of "in/out loop through" and/or "mixer analog out" ways of integrating your K-Series gear to great effect.

 

I don't believe that there's really all that much you can "get wrong", given that you already have the knack of setting crossovers and so on.

 

A friendly warning, however...

 

...You will very quickly yearn for the effortless operation granted by total system control via Line 6 Link running an all-StageSource rig. :)


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#3 1finger

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 12:04 PM

Well , thanks for the reply , but , can the speakers be configured in both ways I mentioned ?
And , have you added other speakers to the 6Link setup , and with ( what results ) - if so ?
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#4 dboomer

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 02:40 PM

You'll essentially have the same thing either way. One slight advantage to using both the analog and the L6 link at the same time would be redundancy if someone were to kick out a cable or the power from the L3. But the audio will be the same either way.

#5 1finger

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 03:10 PM

You'll essentially have the same thing either way. One slight advantage to using both the analog and the L6 link at the same time would be redundancy if someone were to kick out a cable or the power from the L3. But the audio will be the same either way.


So , if I come out of the board with the analog mains to the QSC's , and 6Link to the L3m's , I won't have the ability to have 2 separate EQable mains ?
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#6 dboomer

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 05:14 PM

Well there's no way to have two stereo completely independent outputs ... But ... You would have the 6 band parametric EQ and then the 1/3 oct graphic exclusively for the L3's. So if you weren't doing crazy amounts of EQ adjustments it would almost feel like independent outs.

#7 ArneLine6

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:07 PM

You could use the monitor outs if they are available. As long as all monitor sends are linked and a stereo monitor out is used you have an independent output with 6 band EQ. Maybe Don's proposal is better since you would keep the monitor outs.
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#8 1finger

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Posted 24 November 2013 - 07:39 PM

So , you're saying I would potentially have two different main outs ? The analog to the QSC's , and the 6Link to the L3m's. Each having their own EQ. 6 band for the QSC'S , 31 band for the L3m's ?
Levels of each , adjustable by the on board volume control on both sets of speakers.


Or I could tap off the L3m's , directly to the QSC's , and both sets would SHARE the same 31 band EQ ? - could this be done ? The salesman at a ( Big Time Music Store ) - that I won't mention - couldn't tell me if I could come off the back of the L3m's to the QSC's.

- do you guys know these answers ?
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#9 jaminjimlp

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 12:16 AM

sat night I used my dream stage to run sound for a friends band and the drummer uses a small powered sampson monitor and I always  use the L6 link and he did not have enough mic cable to make it back to the M20D to plug into the extra monitor connection [I use 3- L2M's for monitors] he was on the opposite side of the stage and I plugged him into the "Mix Out Output" on the L3T speaker on that side of the stage and it worked perfectly how ever I am not sure if the mix it was getting was the same as the FOH but it "implies" that it would be. he did say it sounded great. In the manual it says "14. Mix Out Output – This output sends a mix of all three channels (Channel 1, Channel 2, and back panel inputs)" but it obviously gets a signal from the L6 link as well because there was no analog input to the speakers just L6 link.

 

If it was me I would go this route..... but try both anyway.


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May you be blessed and our Lord Jesus keep you!!!


#10 dboomer

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Posted 25 November 2013 - 09:48 AM

What you get is one set of level controls that will affect both L6 and analog outputs at the same time.  Both sets of outputs will also share the 6 band PEQ and only the L3's will be affected by the 31 band GEQ.  The 31 band is built into the Line 6 speakers and is not a part of the mixer itself (other than the controls are on the mixer).

 

So you would have to offset any differences in level by adjusting the QSC sensitivities up or down.  If you mute you will shut off both speakers.

 

If you need complete independence you would need to use a set of monitor outs for the QSC's.



#11 1finger

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 03:53 PM

Got the Line6 speakers.
..... I don't know.
They are not as loud as I had hoped. Not as loud as my K12's. - didn't see that coming.
They sound alright. I came out of the L3m's , to the ksubs , and then to the K12's.

I was really hoping for a bigger sound from these. Every review of KW153's said they sounded BIG , with no subs. I may do the exchange. The 6Link single cable hookup is nice , but I think the only serious PA setup would need to include 2 pairs of the L3m's and 2 pair of L3s's. Over 8 grand ? Ick.
....
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#12 dboomer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:03 PM

L3's are well louder than K12's. You may be mistaking drive sensitivities for maximum output levels. How are you comparing them?

#13 1finger

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 05:12 AM

L3's are well louder than K12's. You may be mistaking drive sensitivities for maximum output levels. How are you comparing them?


..... by standing in front of them.
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#14 dboomer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:22 AM

OK :D

 

But that won't give you an apples to apples comparison.  What you need to do is set each speaker's sensitivity knob so that with a fixed signal both speaker play at the same level when at low volume and then turn them up until they run out of gas.  In you case, the QSC products have a sensitivity that would give them an unfair advantage if you were to say turn up both speaker's knobs to full.  In this case the QSC's will play louder.

 

I can tell you because I've done it, if you use the analog outs from the mixer and set L&R with a mono signal, set the QSC knob at about 10:30 and the Line 6 at 12 o'clock.  This is a little sales trick they are using to make unsuspecting listeners think they are hearing something that doesn't really exist.  Now keep turning them both up.  I can tell you that if you use measuring equipment like I have you'll see that the L3s go quite a bit louder and with less distortion than K12s.



#15 ArneLine6

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:42 AM

When they are at the same level you can check which one goes into the limiter first.


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#16 1finger

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:12 AM

I'm coming out of the output on the L3m's to the QSC's.
The L3m's are connected through 6Link to the stagescape.
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#17 dboomer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:27 AM

Right  ... and that's how you should hook it up.  My suggestion above was only for comparative testing.  But you are actually sending more drive percentage to the QSC's than you are to the Line 6 speakers.  So that's why you hear a difference.  When to send enough to drive the QSC's to full you will only be at about 60-70% 0f what the Line 6  speakers can do.  You should balance them out by turning down the sensitivity controls on the QSC's.

 

btw ... adjusting these controls up or down does not affect the maximum out power of either speaker ... just the drive level it takes to get there.  And since most mixers have enough power to overdrive powered speakers by 10X that would be a good thing to do.  It's actually automatic in the Line 6 system when you use Line 6 link and set the knob to the click stop at 12 o'clock on the speakers.



#18 RonMarton

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:41 AM

As a long time QSC fan, my one-fingered friend...

 

(One who has neither affiliation with, nor particular loyalty to Line 6, QSC or to any other supplier or manufacturer)

 

…I thought you may find it both odd and handy to learn that my observations (along with similar ones from many others) fully support what the Line 6 staffers are saying here.

 

Accordingly, I feel sure that once you've mastered (pun intended) the correct input settings for the "apples to apples" comparison Don Boomer's set out, you'll join the rest of us in being absolutely blown away, …not only by the power and majesty you've bought in your upgrade to StageSource gear, but also by the unique flexibility it offers.

 

So PLEASE...

 

…Take the time to review and digest the advice Don and Arne have given before you conduct your next comparison.

 

Oh ...and if you are driving both systems to the point where their "clip" LED indicators give similar indications on the loudest peaks of the identical source material that's being fed to both of them, it might pay to have first checked the structural solidity of the entire immediate neighbourhood...

 

…It will be THAT f***ing loud !  :lol:


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#19 gordwait

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:32 PM

As well, it's really hard to judge relative loudness "by ear". If a (speaker + amp) is even slightly clipping, it will seem a lot louder than another setup that isn't clipping when both are set to the same SPL.

 

You really would have to first adjust for sensitivity as everyone mentioned above, then use a DB meter and a reference source to compare relative output power scientifically. 

Even a difference in frequency response will give you a false "reading" of loudness by ear... 

 

A friend in a music store once showed me a PA demo (can't recall the make, may have been QSC) and he cranked it up, sounded nice and clear. I went to say so to him and I could not hear myself speak,

but it didn't seem that loud till I tried to speak..

 

I rented the 2T to demo as a floor monitor for a month, damn nice clean sound especially for vocal monitoring! You can set it to "stun" and still have no feedback.. Our drummer plays loud so this was a valuable thing..

 

Buut .. I don't have the budget and my bass player loaned me a Yorkville monitor for free..

Ah well, maybe next year!


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#20 1finger

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 02:10 PM

Hi. I'm not here to bash Line6.
I'm just here to find out if I'm doing something wrong. Powered speakers are expensive.
If QSC KW series are a better buy for me , I need to know so I can send these back.
I own several Line6 products , including the stagescape. ( which ; despite having mixed in a studio setting for over 15 years , find it a bit tricky to navigate. ) I think the mixer was designed with a know-nothing numbnuts could use , or an experienced engineer with unlimited time for tweaking hundreds of parameters.
- I feel a bit " left out " in the design. That's why I'm a bit hesitant to invest further in this setup.
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