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Xd-v70 Handheld - Element Rattle

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#21 branhan

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 07:45 PM

I have two units. The first is going "out" to the second one's "ins"; the first has terminators on it's "ins"; the second one is going "out" via the extensions (which, as I said, may be the wrong cable type - the daisy chains are the ones that came with the mics - the extensions up to the antenna strip may not be) to the antenna strip at the top of the rack. So, am I doing something wrong?  

 

wait...I may have got that backwards (I'm not looking at them)... in any case, I only have one set of terminators installed on one of the units, and I'm fairly confident that I have it set up the way the manual instructs. But I will double-check tomorrow.


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#22 RonMarton

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 08:04 PM

Always worth a double-check !

 

It probably won't surprise you to hear of the huge number of variations to original installations (via "t" adapters, weirdly swapped cabling and the like) that I've encountered on my visits to venues.

 

I have two units. The first is going "out" to the second one's "ins"...

 

I'm sure (or Shure) you now understand that's exactly as it should be, given that the first of your two "daisies" has the pair of antennae connected to its BNC "In" connectors.

 

Your "second daisy" just needs a pair of those terminators on its BNC "Out" connectors.

 

That's it.

 

You seem to be doing nothing "wrong" there, which leaves... 

 

...the extensions (which, as I said, may be the wrong cable type - the daisy chains are the ones that came with the mics - the extensions up to the antenna strip may not be)...

 

It's also worth noting that the supplied "rubber ducky" antennae are intended for chassis mounting and so are not meant for a cable run of longer than roughly one metre or three feet.

 

At microwave frequencies, longer runs than that will almost entirely negate their effect, requiring the use of a cable-compensating RF amplifier at the base of the antenna, …as is built into both types of Line 6's optional remote antennae.


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#23 branhan

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 09:11 PM

[quote name="RonMarton" post="27405" timestamp="1385957081"]

Always worth a double-check !

It's also worth noting that the supplied "rubber ducky" antennae are intended for chassis mounting and so are not meant for a cable run of longer than roughly one metre or three feet.

****
Sorry, doing this from my phone. Might've messed up on the quoting. Anyway...

More testing, checking, troubleshooting. Still no joy. My antennas were hooked up properly. Only thing could've been the cables going from the first unit to the antenna strip. The distance was close enough that I could swap them out with the short line 6 daisy chain cables that came with the units. Same performance. I'm getting less than 100' of range before I start experiencing dropouts, which is an improvement over Sunday, when it was happening at 30-40' but with a room full of people.

So we know it's not the antenna cables; it's not other wireless devices; it's not the capsule because it does it on the beta58 cartridge too; dropout may just be handling the mic poorly and blocking the antenna (I accept that, even if I find it disappointing compared to my other wireless mics); but I still have that flutter / rattle that prompted this whole deal. :-( I'm ready to throw in the towel, unless something else comes to mind!

Again, I greatly appreciate all the help.
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#24 RonMarton

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 11:44 PM

...I'm getting less than 100' of range before I start experiencing dropouts...

 

...may just be handling the mic poorly and blocking the antenna...

 

Nah...

 

Using any of my XD-V70 handhelds at full power (not "Battery Save") …and with the transmitting antenna being "cupped" in the hand, I still manage over fifty feet of range with four of my receivers correctly "daisy chained" from one pair of "rubber ducky" antennae that are correctly splayed from the topmost receiver.

 

I even get to around twenty or thirty metres with no antennae connected to the receivers at all !

 

Something else is amiss, ...so it's looking like a trip to the mic doctor for your entire system. 


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#25 dboomer

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 07:22 AM

I have two units. The first is going "out" to the second one's "ins"; the first has terminators on it's "ins"; the second one is going "out" via the extensions (which, as I said, may be the wrong cable type - the daisy chains are the ones that came with the mics - the extensions up to the antenna strip may not be) to the antenna strip at the top of the rack. So, am I doing something wrong?


Sounds like you are operating without antennas. The antennas should connect to the number one's "In's" and it's outs to number two's in's. The terminators go in the outs of number two.

#26 branhan

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 08:49 AM

Sounds like you are operating without antennas. The antennas should connect to the number one's "In's" and it's outs to number two's in's. The terminators go in the outs of number two.

No, I double checked. Unless I'm completely not getting it, it's hooked up right. Can you make out any problems from this photo? The Left unit is going up to the rubber-duckies on the antenna strip, via the supplied line 6 cable. The L unit is going "out" to the R unit, and R unit's "outs" have terminators on them.

 

 

 

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#27 dboomer

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 10:53 AM

So I think we are trying to solve two independent issues ... dropouts and noises.    You may be fighting a battle that has already been won.  There are significant improvements in the new V2.x firmware.  Upgrading to the newest firmware may solve both issues or not, but it will improve them.  What firmware version do you have (push and hold the encoder while powering up the receiver)?

 

Working on dropouts first ...  If you were in free outdoor space with no RF interference you could probably get 600 feet using a single system with direct line of sight.  As you move indoors you begin to lose range and any number of small things continue to diminish the max range.  When enough things stack up (like covering the antenna with your hands) you'll eventually get to that proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.  So what we need to do is eliminate as many of them as possible.

 

Probably not much you can do about the RF background noise (cause from ALL other transmitters, including a second Line 6 unit).  I assume that you have done channel scanning and selected the most appropriate channels. Are you getting full triangles looking at the LCD screen on BOTH receivers?   Your antenna height is a small problem as it sounds like your performers are "under" their max field.  Lowering them to be within a couple of feet over the heads of the performers is optimal.  Your situation may require using the paddle antennas.  That's the "pro" way to do wireless.  How close are your antennas to a wall?  they should be at least 6 feet away to avoid getting too many reflections (as your whip antennas are omnidirectional).  Here's where the directional P180 paddles can also help a lot ... they get far fewer reflections and should improve your range a bunch.

 

How close are your antennas to any other transmitters?  wi-fi (even in laptops), walkie-talkies, WAPs, IEMs.  The more distance you can get them from your antennas the better.  How close is the nearest cell tower?  All of these things become straws for that camel and every one we can reduce adds one more layer of reliability.

 

Teaching your performers to not cover the antennas will also give you one more layer.  Check the first 45 seconds of this ...    Here you have super expensive systems run by the best professionals in the business, and it still happens :)  It can become that "straw" with any system.



#28 RonMarton

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 03:54 PM

Steve Buscemi's handling of that mic is indeed a perfect illustration to cap off your comprehensively excellent suggestions, Don !

 

I'm now hoping that my next "..AAH …HA !!!" moment may prove to be more helpful than my first in this thread...

 

...Can you make out any problems from this photo?...

 

Your snapshot seems to show a pair of older model Sennheiser "EM" receiver chassis immediately below what look to be your pair of Shure receivers, with all of those chassis pressed hard against each other.

 

Now "normally", (if there is such a thing in showbusiness) that's the way many such installations are configured, with no problems whatsoever...

 

…HOWEVER...

 

have often experienced HUGE problems with the copious amounts of RF "trash" that seems to radiate from many of the older models of Sennheiser rack-mount receiver, specifically those that feature their comprehensive menu-driven LCD displays, ...as distinct from their simpler and/or newer versions.

 

That broadband "junk" has given me a plethora of "buzzes", "splats", "thumps", "hums", "whistles" and data anomalies whenever that older type of Sennheiser chassis has been operating near all manner of systems, ...be those disrupted systems digital, analog, video, lighting control and/or audio.

 

…So...

 

Try yet another test of your XD-V set-up, (which your pic does indeed seem to show as having its antennae correctly connected) but, this time, ...with the power cables FULLY disconnected from the chassis of all of your Sennheiser systems.

 

Should that improve matters, you'll then need to explore a means of granting increased space (as well as possibly installing some "Sennheiser RF junk shielding", via a metal rack-mount "shelf" or some such) between your Sennheiser systems and your other receivers.

 

(It's worth noting that, in my experience, entire "walls" populated with huge and comprehensive installations of those older Sennheiser receivers operate really well in themselves, the "huge problems" to which I've referred only having arisen when attempts have been made to operate other systems in their immediate vicinity.)


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#29 branhan

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 05:59 PM

Your snapshot seems to show a pair of older model Sennheiser "EM" receiver chassis immediately below what look to be your pair of Shure receivers, with all of those chassis pressed hard against each other.

 

Thanks Ron - I will try what you suggested tomorrow. In the meantime let me clarify what you're seeing there. I have (3) newer sennheiser EW100 g3 units and (1) older model of the same unit (whatever the EW100 was a replacement for). Those four are clustered together, and I've left one space (looks like) between them and the v70 units. My Shure PGXes are actually on top of the rack as the receivers are "tabletop" style (I know I could mount them on a rack shelf, but just haven't done it yet). So the Shures are not pictured.

As I said before, one of my troubleshooting steps was to disconnect power to all my wifi routers and power down all the other wireless mic receivers. So I've already tried that, and didn't notice any difference. However, I may not have (as you suggested) disconnected the power supplies - I simply don't remember - so I will try that as well. 

FWIW, the oldest sennheiser is primarily a backup; we hardly ever use it, and if for some reason it is a problem, I could keep it disconnected. Also, the Senns and the Shures have been around for awhile, have always been in close proximity with each other, and haven't ever created any issues with each other. The Line 6es are the new kids on the block, which is why they are the ones on trial.  

Thanks.


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#30 RonMarton

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:34 AM

...FWIW, the oldest sennheiser is primarily a backup; we hardly ever use it, and if for some reason it is a problem, I could keep it disconnected...

 

That's probably the one I'd be suspecting most.

 

...As I said before, one of my troubleshooting steps was to disconnect power to all my wifi routers and power down all the other wireless mic receivers. So I've already tried that, and didn't notice any difference... However, I may not have (as you suggested) disconnected the power supplies...

 

I must confess that I also found it very surprising, ...but the reason I specified testing...

 

 ...with the power cables FULLY disconnected from the chassis of all of your Sennheiser systems...

 

…was our eventual discovery that much RF grief stemmed from the fact that our offending older model Sennheisers' inbuilt power supplies were remaining fully active, ...DESPITE the receivers in question seemingly being "all dark and quiet", having supposedly been "switched off".

 

The superseded models in question were also notable for having IEC cables providing mains voltages directly to their rear panels, as distinct from the now ubiquitous external "wall wart" supplies.


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#31 branhan

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 08:33 AM

The superseded models in question were also notable for having IEC cables providing mains voltages directly to their rear panels, as distinct from the now ubiquitous external "wall wart" supplies.

 

All (4) of mine have wall warts. I will do some more testing today, incl. figuring out my firmware version for dboomer (it's not the latest, that much is certain; but short of buying or finding someone to borrow a v75 unit from, what can I do about that?), testing with my antennas a bit lower and so on. I'll go back through everything you guys suggested and keep trying. Thanks!


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#32 dboomer

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:18 AM

Finding the firmware version could be critical to your problems.

 

btw ... it's common for lots of devices to not completely shut down when you turn off the power switch.



#33 RonMarton

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:08 PM

...btw ... it's common for lots of devices to not completely shut down when you turn off the power switch.

 

Indeed it is, Mr B !  :)

 

Indeed many systems (including my inventory of eight trouble-free XD-V70s and one V75) depend on that "partially awake, stand-by" technique for various aspects of their operation.

 

What's not "common" is emitting nasty RF whenever mains is connected !  :(  :wacko:

 

All (4) of mine have wall warts…!

 

…In which case they almost certainly will NOT be radiating the troublesome RF that we've experienced with those older Sennheiser rack-mounted systems.

 

Finding the firmware version could be critical to your problems...

 

Quite so.

 

In accordance with "clues" (such as the one above) posted by the amazing Don Boomer, (and the rest of this thread to date) I'm now wondering about the "history" or "provenance" of these two problematic XD-V70 systems.

 

...What firmware version do you have (push and hold the encoder while powering up the receiver)?...

 

Is there ANY possibility that one of your two handhelds arrived configured for RF2 operation, in order to "pair" with its "companion" receiver that had indeed been upgraded ?

 

Could this...

 

branhan, on 02 Dec 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:snapback.png

...Not sure about my firmware - whatever came on it...

 

…have led us down the treacherous "assume" path, in that your current struggle arises from the self-defeating practice of actually trying to operate with an RF1 system adjacent to one that's running RF2 ?

 

Check this out:

 

http://line6.com/sup...frequencies-r90


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#34 dboomer

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 05:06 PM

Is there ANY possibility that one of your two handhelds arrived configured for RF2 operation, in order to "pair" with its "companion" receiver that had indeed been upgraded ?

 

I gotta tell you I've been stung by that.  I was helping a local school with a play.  We were using a dozen V75's with belt packs.  No I personally set and checked every single beltpack before the tech rehearsal and they were all on RF1.  About an hour into it I started having problems and since I had personally set the units I didn't look there.  Took me about a half an hour of hair pulling (and trust me I don't have more than 40 minutes of hair to pull) that one of the kids had switched one of the transmitters back to RF2.  I guess I hadn't locked out the performers, which is against my own rules.  I always do that ... yeah, right.  :rolleyes:



#35 branhan

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:03 PM

Finding the firmware version could be critical to your problems.

 

Both units display the same.
 

How do I check RF1 vs. RF2?

Also - am I missing something completely obvious, or is there really no way to attenuate (+ or -) the output level on these devices?

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#36 branhan

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:14 PM

…In which case they almost certainly will NOT be radiating the troublesome RF that we've experienced with those older Sennheiser rack-mounted systems.

 

unplugged all the sennheisers and shures. same performance.

 

Are you getting full triangles looking at the LCD screen on BOTH receivers?  

 

How close are your antennas to any other transmitters?  wi-fi (even in laptops), walkie-talkies, WAPs, IEMs.  The more distance you can get them from your antennas the better.  How close is the nearest cell tower? 

 

Yes, full triangles. Scanned for clear channels; all are clear. There are two wifi routers (one Apple AirPort Extreme and one Cisco POE unit) but both are a good 60' away - routers are in balcony, mic rack is in a rack near (above) the platform - opposite sides of the room. No walkies, no other WAPs. IEM rack is below (on-stage, not above like the mic-rack), and I've tested the mics with all of this off - I'm getting the same performance even when I turn off and unplug every other wireless device in the room. :-(

Not sure about nearest cell tower, but we're a fairly small farming town that's not known for strong reception (certain don't get great reception in the church building, as I know all too well), so my GUESS would be, not that close.


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#37 branhan

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:26 PM

I assume that you have done channel scanning and selected the most appropriate channels. Are you getting full triangles looking at the LCD screen on BOTH receivers?   

 

Your antenna height is a small problem as it sounds like your performers are "under" their max field.  Lowering them to be within a couple of feet over the heads of the performers is optimal.

 

How close are your antennas to a wall?  

 

How close are your antennas to any other transmitters?  wi-fi (even in laptops), walkie-talkies, WAPs, IEMs.  The more distance you can get them from your antennas the better.  How close is the nearest cell tower? 

 

Scanned - all channels open; yes, full triangles on both.

I can experiment with that; although the performance was the same even before I moved the mic rack from the balcony (near the sound console) to the stage area. Hard to say if the performance was any different re: dropouts because, as I mentioned before, they were previously being used as vocal mics on stands, so we didn't have the dropout issue until we started using it hand-held as a speaking mic; so it seems to be primarily poor mic technique / covering the antenna on the transmitter. I accept that, and am now more focused on the sound quality / rattle issue.

 

Antennas are in a very open "loft" type space about 8 feet above the platform. They are about 6 ft away from the nearest wall.

 

They are only in proximity to my other wireless mic receivers; (2) wifi routers (and apple airport extreme and a cisco POE device) are in the balcony, some 60 ft. away, and the performance has been the same with them both turned off and unplugged, as well as with all the other wireless devices in the room turned off and unplugged.

No walkie talkies.

My IEM rack is about 20' away and below the mic rack, down on the stage. Tested with all that turned off too.

We use iPads for music charts and stuff - those would be, say, 15-20' away from the receivers during a service, and would be connected to wifi, as well as bluetooth (for a footpedal that flips pages).

Not sure about the nearest cell tower but we are a fairly small farm town; not known for great cell reception, certainly not inside the church building (as I know all too well) - so my guess would be, not close.


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#38 branhan

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:28 PM

(oops - sorry, I didn't think that 2nd response to both of you actually posted, so I rewrote it, but since I went into more detail, I'll leave it as is. But sorry for cluttering up the thread - which I've done again now with this explanatory post!)  :rolleyes:


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#39 RonMarton

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:39 AM

How do I check RF1 vs. RF2?

 

No need, branhan...

 

Your latest pic shows that the firmware in both of your receivers will only allow operation in the RF1 scheme, so the fact that you're receiving decoded audio at all makes me think that your transmitters must also be running in RF1.

 

...Also - am I missing something completely obvious, or is there really no way to attenuate (+ or -) the output level on these devices?

 

No, you're missing nothing. Output level adjustment is one of the features that "arrived" with the later v2 firmware.

 

...We use iPads for music charts and stuff - those would be, say, 15-20' away from the receivers during a service, and would be connected to wifi, as well as bluetooth (for a footpedal that flips pages)...

 

Neither of those have ever caused me the slightest problems when using the RF1 scheme that you're locked into, unless they've been within about a metre (3 feet) of my receivers and/or their antennae.

 

Walking one of my transmitters (operating in RF1) over to them, however, has definitely affected their use of WiFi and/or Bluetooth.

 

Not sure about the nearest cell tower but we are a fairly small farm town; not known for great cell reception...

 

As for cellphones, neither the base stations nor the phone frequencies themselves have ever been an issue for me, so I think it's really starting to seem as though we might be back to this...

 

...Something else is amiss, ...so it's looking like a trip to the mic doctor for your entire system. 


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#40 dboomer

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:54 AM

Just to clarify as there is a lot of confusion about this.  Interference from other transmitters will not present itself as audio interference.  That is to say not in the RF section.  It is possible to get cell phone noise into a microphone and then that microphone signal will be transmitter ... but it doesn't happen in the radio.  It can also happen in the analog output section or in your cables.

 

Enough interference when close enough can cause dropouts ... but not audio problems

 

As far as the output level adjustment, personally I would never use it except in an emergency.  The best way to treat it is at the mixer just in the same way you would if it were a wired mic.  Adding gain would increase the noise floor and lower the headroom just as it does in all wireless receivers.  Unfortunately because of the limited dynamic range in conventional wireless systems it's just a bad habit that everyone learned and should now quickly forget :)







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