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Variax Vs Jtv Processsor

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#1 arislaf

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 03:26 PM

If the jtv has 4 times better processor than the original variax, then why there is lag when I change pickups, even with a pre 2.0 f.w. update???


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#2 clay-man

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 05:20 PM

If the jtv has 4 times better processor than the original variax, then why there is lag when I change pickups, even with a pre 2.0 f.w. update???

 

That might not be processor speed and just the read speed of the flash memory. 

It's like saying "why does this SD card go slow when my CPU is fast?"

 

I think the lag between pickup selections is amazing already.


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#3 arislaf

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Posted 03 December 2013 - 10:09 PM

This was a long time before, on this site http://www.musicians...electric-guitar  Maybe you are correct and is the read time, but the lag should not be there since the 1st gen. variax did not had it.The lag is a step more then back...


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#4 wolbai

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 12:08 AM

The pickup-switching latency when playing in modeling mode is an existing problem with JTVs.

 

Especially for players who are switching pu-positions in leadparts and most of all in HIGH GAIN leadparts: It just kills the sustain. This is one reason why I have stopped using the JTV-modeling in some songs and go back to the magnetic pups (e.g. Still got the blues, Smoke on the water). And this is even more noticeable when playing the JTV69 or the JTV89 by switching from position 5 to position 1 (or vice versa): the 5-way switch interupts 5-times the played note instead of 3-times on a JTV59.

 

Not sure, if there is a realistic hope that this is going to be fixed by Line6 with a future FW release ... Eventually something where the modeling is still restricted by the physical limitations.of some hardware components as already stated.


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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: Warmoth (H-S-H)-built, JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#5 arislaf

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:02 AM

Yeah, exactly wolbai well said!With the previous ,1st gen variax there was no problems like this, now with the JTV I have to go on with one pickup full song, limiting the usage of the modelling  :angry:


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#6 wolbai

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 01:22 AM

Yeah, exactly wolbai well said!With the previous ,1st gen variax there was no problems like this, now with the JTV I have to go on with one pickup full song, limiting the usage of the modelling  :angry:

 

I have no experience with the 1st gen variax guitars. If the 1st gens doesn't have this pu-switching latency problem as you have mentioned (where I have no reason why I should not trust your observation) this is indeed a step backwards in that specific feature. Well then you need to find workarounds for it in your playing style or just switch to the magnetic pups like I do. 


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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: Warmoth (H-S-H)-built, JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#7 arislaf

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 03:51 AM

that is the best i could find on the moment, check on 2:00 that he plays and change PICKUPS AND TUNNING and no lag at all...this is very disappointing...I have a var 700 and I really miss the non lag sound...Anyway, thank you for your comment and faith :)

 

About work arrounds, i have the 69s, with single coils, I can't play metal with this guitar at all or some serious rock stuff........

 


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#8 jandrio

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 04:50 AM

Alternatively you could connect VDI to HD500 and instead of PU physical switching, use HD500 presets.
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#9 arislaf

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:32 AM

Yeah, that is a way to do it, but God...I get sick of the work arounds all the time...Put paper in the model knob because it doesn't go deep enough to change from pickups, use pod HD to change the sounds of the guitar to kill lag, don't touch the stratocaster on workbench or swap the bridge to the middle and opposite (firmware 2.0)...For a guitar that costs 1000 euro. Let me remind you that the variax 300, the cheapest variax ever, didn't have any of these problems, and it was 1/3 of the jtv....something is terrible wrong here.


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#10 wolbai

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 07:59 AM

Yeah, that is a way to do it, but God...I get sick of the work arounds all the time...Put paper in the model knob because it doesn't go deep enough to change from pickups, use pod HD to change the sounds of the guitar to kill lag, don't touch the stratocaster on workbench or swap the bridge to the middle and opposite (firmware 2.0)...For a guitar that costs 1000 euro. Let me remind you that the variax 300, the cheapest variax ever, didn't have any of these problems, and it was 1/3 of the jtv....something is terrible wrong here.

 

I fairly understand what you are saying ...  Honestly speaking I am a bit in the same "down to earth-mood" with my JTVs after several FW-changes and LIVE-performance experience over the last 2 years.

 

As a consequence of all those complexities (and workarounds) I have chosen only to use my JTVs in the modelling mode for:

- Acoustic sounds and/or

- specific tunings (open G, 7th fret capo, etc.)
 

Everything else I am going to play either with the JTVs and their magnetic pickups or with a different guitar, when really needed. (That is by the way the reason I have swapped my pups in the JTV69).

This new approach reduces a lot of my complexity (like adapting my presets on major FW-releases) and still keep the modelling benefits where I really need them.

 

The workaround suggestion using the POD HD500 to switch the pickups positions (I guess with a specific preset, if I have understood it correctly) will cause similar latency problems:

A sustained sound which you want to change tonally by switching the pickup position will cause similar latency problems with a separate POD HD preset as it does in the JTV modeling mode. May be not so noticeable, but still there.
 


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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: Warmoth (H-S-H)-built, JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#11 arislaf

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:14 AM

Forget to put the video (lol)! Wish they could make the HD sounds on the building and electronic quality of the previous variaxes. Never mind the shape, or the missing pickups, there was QUALITY....And quality check....


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#12 TheRealZap

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:37 AM

having a faster processor will only help so much if you're processing more... i dont know what the marketing blurb is for the variax specifically...

but the pod hd's had a similar difference between the pod x3's... being a processor upgrade etc...

but the hd supposedly processed models with 10x the modeling DNA... (or some similar marketing phrase...)

if the variax follows... that similar type of upgrade you have a 4x faster processor processing 10x greater code...

 

all that said.. i've never had the issue or let the issue bother me to the extent of some others...

i guess i just don't flip things around as much during songs...

 

If the jtv has 4 times better processor than the original variax, then why there is lag when I change pickups, even with a pre 2.0 f.w. update???


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#13 arislaf

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:43 AM

Thanks for replying Zap, but i really still no get it...why there is lag?


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#14 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:47 AM

I do notice quite a nasty sound when I switch models without muting the strings.  My old 500 did not do this except when switching to Acoustic it did pop sometimes.  (usually the first time after powering up)


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#15 TheRealZap

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:47 AM

you don't get minor delays when you for example open a web page? or open line6 monkey etc...

it's just processing new settings and ceasing the processing of the old settings...

it cannot process both simultaneously... so it has a small break during the change.

they've made and will continue to make adjustments anywhere they can to minimize it...

but complete elimination is not likely to ever be possible...

at least not until a dual processor variax...

and even then... people will want to run dual models! so you never know....

 

Thanks for replying Zap, but i really still no get it...why there is lag?


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#16 arislaf

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Posted 04 December 2013 - 09:57 AM

. people will want to run dual models! so you never know....

Lol, this was my idea on ideascale about a month before :P Thanks for your time zap...I understand why there is the lag now, but on the variax of the 1st gen. there was not (or even if it was I NEVER understand it ). In any case, I don't blame any of you guys (experts, or users like myself) but about the quality check and those bugs I mentioned above, line 6 should take care of them on the 3rd gen. variax.


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#17 jandrio

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:50 AM

The workaround suggestion using the POD HD500 to switch the pickups positions (I guess with a specific preset, if I have understood it correctly) will cause similar latency problems:

 

 

 

I extensively use the HD500 presets to do ALL my tone building, including Variax model, tone knob setting and alt tuning and I never had any latency "problems" at all.

 

The technique I use is simple and straightforward:

 

PLAY WITH PRESET A -> MUTE STRINGS -> SWITCH TO PRESET B -> PLAY WITH PRESET B.  

 

Voila! No latency.

Some typical Examples:
-from SMOKE INTRO/RYTHM change to SMOKE SOLO (spank 1->spank 5).
-from AQUALUNG RIFF change to AQUALUNG ACOUSTIC then change to AQUALUNG SOLO and back to AQUALUNG RIFF (completely different banks and positions).
-from HIGHWAYSTAR INTRO/RYTHM change to HIGHWAYSTAR SOLO incl harmony parts (spank 1->spank 5).
-from WALL RYTHM (spank 3) change to WALL SOLO (lester 5).
-from HOTEL CALIFORNIA SOLO PART 1 (lester 1) change to HOTEL CALIFORNIA SOLO PART 2 (t-model 1) and then change to VARIAX MAGS+LESTER 1 for the harmony parts.
etc etc etc

With this approach, switching from position 5 to position 1 occurs immediately.

I beleive there is no other way to implement all these "complexities (and workarounds)" in a demanding live situation without the combination of HD500+JTV.  This is the reason I have chosen to use the JTV69s VDI connected to the HD500 and then XLR'ed to PA as the best and most powerful workaround ever, while my previous analogue gear (vintage 72 strat+fender prosonic custom shop tube amp+many other tube amps+analogue equipment) are now decommissioned.


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#18 wolbai

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:17 AM

I extensively use the HD500 presets to do ALL my tone building, including Variax model, tone knob setting and alt tuning and I never had any latency "problems" at all.

 

The technique I use is simple and straightforward:

 

PLAY WITH PRESET A -> MUTE STRINGS -> SWITCH TO PRESET B -> PLAY WITH PRESET B.  

 

Voila! No latency.

Some typical Examples:
-from SMOKE INTRO/RYTHM change to SMOKE SOLO (spank 1->spank 5).
-from AQUALUNG RIFF change to AQUALUNG ACOUSTIC then change to AQUALUNG SOLO and back to AQUALUNG RIFF (completely different banks and positions).
-from HIGHWAYSTAR INTRO/RYTHM change to HIGHWAYSTAR SOLO incl harmony parts (spank 1->spank 5).
-from WALL RYTHM (spank 3) change to WALL SOLO (lester 5).
-from HOTEL CALIFORNIA SOLO PART 1 (lester 1) change to HOTEL CALIFORNIA SOLO PART 2 (t-model 1) and then change to VARIAX MAGS+LESTER 1 for the harmony parts.
etc etc etc

With this approach, switching from position 5 to position 1 occurs immediately.

I beleive there is no other way to implement all these "complexities (and workarounds)" in a demanding live situation without the combination of HD500+JTV.  This is the reason I have chosen to use the JTV69s VDI connected to the HD500 and then XLR'ed to PA as the best and most powerful workaround ever, while my previous analogue gear (vintage 72 strat+fender prosonic custom shop tube amp+many other tube amps+analogue equipment) are now decommissioned.

 

You don't get my point:

 

play a sustained note (with vibrato), hold the note and switch the pup-position in the modeling mode from 5 to 1 ... sustain will die. Do the same with magnetic pups. Sustain will be kept.

 

If you talking explicitely on songs lets pickup Smoke on the water and Still Got The Blues:

 

RB plays in the final run a 1-tone bended, sustained D-tone where he switches from position 5 to 1. On a JTV69 in modeling spank-mode, the sustain is killed. The same applies to a specific Outro-Part on Still Got The Blues. GM (RIP) switches from a sustained, bended f-tone (if I remember correctly) from pos 3 to pos 1 on his LP WITHOUT any breaks. And that is exactly the point I am talking about.

 

I do not talk about any stops, breaks, in leadparts, which is very obvisiously that you can switch pup-positions either with the JTV or with a POD HD-preset.


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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: Warmoth (H-S-H)-built, JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#19 jandrio

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:48 AM

You don't get my point either.

Instead of loosing all the powerful advantages of the JTV+HD500 bundle, I prefer to play the SMOKE final run 1-tone bended note without switching from position 5 to 1.

After all what it matters is the final sound you deliver to your audience. Besides , if needed, I could use other HD500 "workarounds" to obtain this specific sound change.

Simplicity is power my friend.
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#20 wolbai

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:40 AM

You don't get my point either.

Instead of loosing all the powerful advantages of the JTV+HD500 bundle, I prefer to play the SMOKE final run 1-tone bended note without switching from position 5 to 1.

After all what it matters is the final sound you deliver to your audience. Besides , if needed, I could use other HD500 "workarounds" to obtain this specific sound change.

Simplicity is power my friend.

 

Well, I play since more than 2 years  JTVs / POD HD500 / DT50 as a gigging rig. And I will continue to us them. But I have thrown out several functionalities (like too many amps, two many guitars, etc.) for simplicity and complexity reasons.

 

It was more a pretty specific lack of functionality I am missing - as described above.

 

The funny thing - my friend - is that I am looking for simplicity as well. But obviously we have a different view what simplicity is all about. And that is fair to me. There is no right or wrong at that point to me.

 

So there is a lot of freedom here that we can agree to disagree at that point :D


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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: Warmoth (H-S-H)-built, JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#21 jandrio

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:03 AM

wolbai,
I fully agree with you :D .
John


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#22 phil_m

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:26 AM

The obvious answer is to not play Smoke on the Water... :ph34r:


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#23 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:20 AM

I think that expecting the JTV to switch models totally cleanly while playing isn't realistic. 


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#24 phil_m

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:25 AM

I was actually testing this out last night on my JTV, and while there is a very slight drop, it's nothing that very noticeable to me. I suppose if you are switching pickups or models during a sustaining chord, it will be noticeable. If you have any delay in the tone you're playing, though, it will help to make it a lot less noticeable. I've been playing out with my JTV for the last year and a half and it's honestly not been anything I've ever thought of.


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Time is a train
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Leaves you standing in the station
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#25 wolbai

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:13 AM

Well,

 

I am not searching for peanuts to make my day. I have respond to the original post here which has brought up that point.

 

And yes there are for sure (playing) workarounds for that as there are lots of other workarounds user need  to develop to adapt the equipment to their specific needs.

 

I am not technical experienced enough to say whether this is realistic to be solved by a future firmware or not. I tend to say that it is unrealistic too.

 

But I am experienced enough to say that this is a wrong modeled guitar behavior:

 

Any standard guitar with magnetic pickups deals pretty well with pup-switching when playing HI GAIN sustained notes from position 5 to 1 (I am not talking about pup-switching between breaks or pup-switching on clean tones or anything else). And this is NOT a matter of taste. The only matter of taste in that respect is whether this is something someone feels disturbing or not. I do.

 

The signal chain itself and the amount of sustain which is in there is influencing the degree of awareness in that respect. And it is also different whether to play with a band or when recording. The most noticeable awareness is recording.

 

As audio speaks for itself: Here is a short recording. Just one sustained note. The first one is in JTV-modelled mode (JTV89F) switching from pos. 5 to pos. 1. The second take is with the magnetic pickups of the JTV89F:

 

http://www.soundclic...2&q=hi&newref=1

 

 

I do hear a difference and this difference is VERY noticeable to me.

 

 

Finally:  the pup-latency in a modeled JTV-mode as I have noticed and described is not a show stopper to me. The opposite is still the case. But my rig usage has gone through a learning curve. And I am using my JTVs / POD HD / DT50 rig remarkably different than 2 years ago like any other player which takes his rig seriously.


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______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: Warmoth (H-S-H)-built, JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#26 phil_m

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:28 AM

I do hear a difference and this difference is VERY noticeable to me.

 

I can hear a difference, too, but even when you're switching the magnetics, I kind of find the jump from one sound to another like that kind of annoying. It's not something I would ever really do even with a traditional electric guitar. I guess I'd say that no technology is perfect. There's limitations with any piece of equipment. This particular issue is probably something that most people wouldn't notice very much simply because changing pickups during the time a chord or note is ringing out is relatively rare.


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Time is a train
Makes the future the past
Leaves you standing in the station
Your face pressed up against the glass

 


#27 arislaf

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:37 AM

Well, it is REALLY noticeable, as wolbai showed, and it is limiting. I really don't expect or hope to be solved since it is a hardware stuff (processor) on this jtv, but I hope that the next variax will have the good quality of the 1st generation variax and the sound quality of the jtv, WITHOUT the use of the work arrounds...On the variax the technology was perfect enough, only the sound was different...And yes, I also feel disturbed when it happens for those milliseconds that I lose the sound on the modeled pick ups.


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