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How Much I Liked This Song When It Came Out..

variax 700 hd500 strato plexi blackmore input2=null smoke on the water

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#61 radatats

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 08:27 AM

hahahah! :)


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#62 hurghanico

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 09:52 AM

hahahah! :)

 

laughter is the best medicine ;)

 

your tests were interesting but are based on what happens to the levels that reach 2 amp models each one placed in its path, depending on the input settings..

 

but what we can say about what happens in the case of an amp in the default pre position, or even better, what we can say about what happens in the case of a completely empty patch?

 

could you peraphs agree with me that with an empty patch and default input settings you are actually hearing simultaneusly 2 separate paths each one with its raw signal, ie a total of 2 identical raw signals?

 

and could you peraphs agree with me that if you put something mono in pre position it will take both signals in its inputs?

 

I'm not saying that I found the right explanation of the routings, this is just another possible point of view


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#63 radatats

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 11:49 AM

that is exactly correct. 

 

An empty patch with Guitar/Same will have the raw signal from Input 1 duplicated and sent separately to both Path A and Path B, completely independent of each other.  Put a stereo effect in the Pre position and the two independent signals again pass separately to Path A and Path B.  Put a mono effect in the Pre position and those two indepent raw signals are summed and then mixed down to a single raw signal of the same strength as either of the two incoming raw signals.

 

Input 1 - Guitar (6db) ----- path A (6db)

                                   \

                                    \

Input 2 - Same              ---- path B (6db)

 

 

Input 1 - Guitar (6db) ----- path A (6db) \                                       

                                   \                            \                                      

                                    \                            >--- (6+6=12) -> MONO -> (12/2=6db)

                                     \                          /                                      

Input 2 - Same               --- path B (6db)/                                        

 

 

 

An empty patch with Guitar/Variax will have the raw signal from Input 1 sent directly to Path A and no signal sent to Path B.  Put a stereo effect in the Pre position and input 1 again passes to Path A and nothing to Path B.  Put a mono effect in the Pre position and that one raw signal is summed with the blank signal from input 2 and then mixed down to a single raw signal.    However, due to the mix down of only one signal, the resultant output is weaker than it would be with both inputs active!

 

Input 1 - Guitar (6db) ----- path A (6db) \                                       

                                                                \                                      

                                                                  --- (6+0=6) ---> MONO -> (6/2=3db)

                                                                /                                      

Input 2 - Variax (0db) ------ path B (0db)/                                        

 

PS - my numbers are purely arbitrary and for demonstration purposes only...


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#64 hurghanico

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 01:15 PM

Input 1 - Guitar (6db) ----- path A (6db) \                                       

                                   \                            \                                      

                                    \                            >--- (6+6=12) -> MONO -> (12/2=6db)

                                     \                          /                                      

Input 2 - Same               --- path B (6db)/

 

given your schemes it would seem that you agree that with the default input settings a mono block in pre position is reached by a doubled input, and conseguently could be overloaded


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#65 radatats

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 01:41 PM

ABSOLUTELY.  

 

However, it is SUPPOSED to be reached by both inputs and we are simply ADVISED to be aware of the POSSIBILITY of overloading.  The NORMAL configuration is to feed both inputs and the ADVICE is to reduce your GUITAR volume, not to disable one of the inputs...

 

Even though that does offer an alternate method of signal reduction.  So does using the PAD switch by the expression pedal...


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#66 hurghanico

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 01:51 PM

..However, it is SUPPOSED to be reached by both inputs..

 

I understand your point of view, but personally I still have some doubts and no certainty


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#67 radatats

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 02:02 PM

that's cool bro.  leaves open the possibility of new discoveries!   :)


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#68 hurghanico

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 03:24 PM

that's cool bro.  leaves open the possibility of new discoveries!   :)

 

holy words! .. ;)

however as well as in some cases a few pictures are worth a thousand words
in a case like this a few sounds can work the same way ..

without the need for patches especially designed, you can simply open a new empty patch, and take a tour of all the amp models (especially the no-hi-gain ones) leaving them at their defaults, first with a certain setting of the inputs and then with the other one, and judge yourself how you get the best results..

 

of course everyone has their own tastes, for me it was not at all difficult to decide which solution I like the most..


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#69 stumblinman

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 07:33 PM

Holy hijacked thread Batman!


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#70 perapera

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 06:12 AM

1- I asked 2 times to continue the discussion here:

http://line6.com/sup...vs-both-inputs/

 

2- in that thread I posted a new test which gives some scientific basis to what hurghanico and others hear in the difference between single vs dual inputs,

 

this is what I was searching for with all these tests: some confirmation and measurable differences

 

3- my routing schematics were drawn after intensive testing (confirmed by the tests by radatats, by meambobbo and by you hurghanico, more than a year ago)

so there is no doubt that they are correct and that the pod was designed to be used with the two inputs active as a default

 

this is in NO contraddiction with the fact that some amps can sound different or even better with the single input approach (and my last test is totally in harmony with this)

 

4- my comments on the advanced guide statement at page 6.2

 

they write:

"Note that when utilizing both Inputs 1 & 2 (or when using “SAME” for either of these Input options) the two Input signals are combined to allow them to be fed into any Amp or mono FX Model within the Pre position, which can result in a hot signal level. Reduce your instruments’ volume as needed to avoid overloading your Pre-positioned Models."

 

 

I- they do not say "don't use both inputs" they say "Reduce your instruments’ volume"

 

II- I think this is a misleading statement and should have been more like

"Note that when utilizing both Inputs 1 & 2 (or when using “SAME” for either of these Input options) the two Input signals are attenuated and summed to allow them to be fed into any Amp or mono FX Model within the Pre position without overloading it.

Anyway, if you hear that the Amp or mono FX Model is overloded you can try to select a "dummy" input for input 2 (like variax, if you're not using a variax) to reduce the input level"

 

III- this is NOT the only point of the documentation where it lacks clarity and information or says something wrong

just some examples:

- the "pan" pots of the mixer are actually balance controls ("Pan A (Knob 3): Adjusts the left/right stereo balance of the Path A output." this introduces even more confusion in the words used... but beyond labels and words the correct behaviour of the control is not explained)

- the fx loop looses 5dB at the send jack in the "amp" position, confirmed by many users and tests and no official statement on this was done

see here for details:

http://line6.com/sup...-the-send-jack/

- ...

 

if the manuals were better written, 90% of all my testing and a big part of the meambobbo guide would not have been necessary


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#71 hurghanico

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 10:24 AM

1- I asked 2 times to continue the discussion here:

http://line6.com/sup...vs-both-inputs/

 

2- in that thread I posted a new test which gives some scientific basis to what hurghanico and others hear in the difference between single vs dual inputs,

 

 

1) I'm going to copy and paste this reply to the other thread ;)

 

2) I never would have imagined I could have a scentific support.. wow.. I don't know if I deserve so much :o

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I have always admired the tenacity of the people in defending their own ideas ..

on a logical level all that we (I, you, meambobbo, radatats, etc.) have discovered and proved is impeccable .. B) even if it will never officially approved..

but the POD is not the result of some Pythagorean theorem, it is an object that should serve to give to us guitar players the sounds that we have always dreamed of having ..

Now talking on a less theoretical and most practical way, and based on our experience even with real things
, tell me what you think:

suppose to look for a clean sound using a volume pedal, a guitar and a tube amp

first with the volume pedal to maximum and a certain gain setting of the amplifier, and then with the gain cranked and the volume pedal down until you get a clean sound..

 

from your experience with the real things may be equal to each other those two clean sounds?

based on my experience I can say that will never happen, of course it is not like going from a violin sound to a trumpet, but there will still be significant differences for me, attack, dynamics, compression, bass middle treble response, etc.. etc. ..

in the same way if you find a crunch sound or distorted sound that you really like using a precise combination of input level and amp gain
level, you will never be able to recreate the same sound by changing those proportions

 

You can more or less get close, but you still have to accept some changes and compromises

Now in my opinion, if the modeler is doing right its work it should reproduce this behavior, and I can confirm
that's the way it works


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#72 perapera

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 07:41 AM

> hurghanico, on 27 Dec 2013 - 7:24 PM, said:

>

> but the POD is not the result of some Pythagorean theorem

 

 

well, actually the pod would never have been invented without the Pythagorean theorem...

nor any amplifier or the electric guitar itself for that matter...

 

 

> hurghanico, on 27 Dec 2013 - 7:24 PM, said:

>

> suppose to look for a clean sound using a volume pedal, a guitar and a tube amp

>

> first with the volume pedal to maximum and a certain gain setting of the amplifier, and then with the gain cranked and the volume pedal down until you get a clean sound..

>

> from your experience with the real things may be equal to each other those two clean sounds?

>

> based on my experience I can say that will never happen, of course it is not like going from a violin sound to a trumpet, but there will still be significant differences for me, attack, dynamics, compression, bass middle treble response, etc.. etc. ..

>

> in the same way if you find a crunch sound or distorted sound that you really like using a precise combination of input level and amp gain level, you will never be able to recreate the same sound by changing those proportions

 

 

I totally agree with your real life example!

the volume pedal has a passive pot and at different positions it is changing the impedance matching between the guitar and the amp

 

the volume pedal on the pod is not simulating that at all (because it CAN'T),

it's just multiplying the the value representing the level of the signal

 

and this is exactly what the input settings + first mono effect in the chain are doing: multiplications

 

changing from 2-inputs to 1-input active, in the real world, is more similar to having a

[ guitar > buffer > amp ] configuration and adding a 6dB linear pad after the buffer

 

indeed, if you can't get a good clean tone from an amp, I would suggest this setup in the real world better than a volume pedal fixed in a midway position

 

as I wrote, this differs to lowering the gain of the amp because in many (all?) amps there is a gain stage before the gain pot

 

 

what I found here is that the POD is correctly simulating this behaviour: so lowering the drive pot of an amp model is not the same as changing to 1-input only

 

all this is just telling us that:

there is nothing wrong in using one input active (guitar/variax)

and

there is nothing wrong in using two inputs active (guitar/same)

it all depends on what you want to achieve

 

I just think people must know that:

- by using only one input, you are just attenuating the signal at the input by 6dB (=halving it)

- this effect ENDS after the first mono gain related effect block (comp, dist, ...) you insert in the pre-path

- this has no effect at all if you don't use a mono effect/amp in the pre path (i.e.: you put everything path A)

 

“Knowledge is freedom and ignorance is slavery”

Miles Davis

 

peace!

Lorenzo


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#73 hurghanico

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:23 PM

I just think people must know that:

- by using only one input, you are just attenuating the signal at the input by 6dB (=halving it)

- this effect ENDS after the first mono gain related effect block (comp, dist, ...) you insert in the pre-path

- this has no effect at all if you don't use a mono effect/amp in the pre path (i.e.: you put everything path A)

 

First thing, once again you are hijacking my threads..

 

second thing, I'm not very interested in seeing who discovered the great truth between you and me, and so I think this discussion could end here ..

 

I believe that what you think you've found is nothing but a possible interpretation of the facts, and has never been confirmed, nor officialized .. it is only your opinion and as such is worth ..

 

with this and other my threads I just wanted to share (can I??) with others what I've noticed, and what works best for me, and I have also provided audio demos of various kinds, not only here..

 

those interested, that could perhaps find my informations useful, take advantage of that, and those who prefer other solutions or interpretations, are obviously free to do as they wish, is not my business ..

 

and really, I am only interested in what works best to play good music, and I would gladly avoid all the remaining bla bla bla..

 

also, be careful not to make unnecessary citations, which give only evidence of how much you think you are important and essential in this context,.. unjustifiably


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#74 stumblinman

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:39 PM

Oh snap!
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