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A Whole New World At Higher Volume...and A Clean Question

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#1 grandinq

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 12:40 PM

I've had my DT25 since March, and while I've been loving it, I never turned the master volume beyond 3, as it always seemed plenty loud.  I had noticed reading this forum that many of you keep the master a 1 or 2 o'clock, and with the family out today and the house to myself, I decided to give it a try.  Wow!  What a difference!  I ended up turning down a lot of the patch volumes on my POD hd500.  There was just something magical about the master volume being up that high.  The Plexi 100 for the first time sounded amazing to me.  I noticed I dialed back the drive or distortion effects more at higher volume, as they amp was doing plenty of driving on its own.

 

My only concern was that my clean sounds lost their clean-ness with the master volume up.  For some songs, I like a really pristine, glassy clean sound.  But when the master volume is beyond 12 o'clock, this nice overdrive kicks in -- nice if that's what I wanted.  I tried playing around with different combinations of Twin, Bassman, etc.  The closest I could come to maintaining a clean quality at high volume was an AC15, though it lacked the Fender character I was looking for.

 

Has anyone been able to dial in a nice clean sound while keeping the master volume cranked?

 

Thanks!

 


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#2 geppert

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 03:10 PM

What I do with the Fender preamp and the DT25 Master up past 12 0'clock, is to reduce the "drive" (not the Channel Volume) on the preamp to get the volume down to a manageable level. This keeps things nice and clean. Give it a try and see if it works for you.


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#3 grandinq

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 05:46 PM

I tried our what you said, geppert It helped, but it is still not a pristine clean tone. There is a part of a song we do where I want a very clean tone wth wah, and with the master volume as loud as I had it, the sound was breaking up. Like I said before, it is a great sound, but not what I want in that case. It seems I can keep the sound clean only at quite low volume, which means then my crunch tones will be very loud by comparison.
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#4 boyce89976

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 05:58 PM

You should be able to get a clean tone with the master up past 12. What are your other settings? Drive? Pentode/triode? Class A/AB? Topology I, II , III, IV?

What pickups are you using?
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#5 geppert

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 09:48 PM

Granding ….. that's odd? With the Fender preamp, I manage easily to get a very nice clean tone with the Master up past 12 o'clock. Also, with the Fender, I would dime out (100%) the Channel Volume (this particular preamp model is the lowest volume). Then, as I mentioned, use the "Drive" control for your amp volume. Unlike the other preamps, the "drive" pot on the Fender preamp doesn't add much distortion. As  Boyce89976 said, what are your other settings? When you select the Fender Preamp on the 500, the Topology should automatically be "I", the Class should be AB, the Tube setting should be Pentode.

 

Let's put it this way ….

 

1) Try it first with just the amp (no HD500). Plug your gtr right into the amp.

2) Pick TOP 1 (by default, it is the Fender preamp model)

3) Make Sure it is set for Class is AB (should be set by default when you select Top 1)

4) Make sure you are on Pentode (should be set by default when you select Top 1).

5) Master Volume ~12 o'clock or more if you wish

6) Channel Volume 100%

7) Tone Stack set to taste (maybe turn off the Reverb for the test)

8) Drive set to the overall volume you need.

 

This should provide a nice clean tone. I get this no problemo on my DT25. I rarely run my Master Volume more than 1 0'clock and it is plenty loud.

 

If this all works for you ….. then add the HD 500 as the front end with Line 6 Link. You should totally be able to duplicate the results as the amp standalone.

 

If you can't get a decently loud clean sound using the above settings, something is wrong? …. IMHO anyway.


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#6 nikoniablue

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 03:01 AM

Try turning your guitar volume down too - that will potentially reduce the amount of distortion in the tone - possibly more than it cuts the volume.


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#7 Metalchef

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 02:56 PM

Hooray for the upgrade... I finally have been able to get some killer sounds at near (close enough) bedroom levels and I'm guessing that is a feat with a 50w combo Tube amplifier pushing to 12" speakers. And right when I was debating a rock crusher attenuator. Thank you Line 6.
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#8 grandinq

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:22 PM

Hello again!

 

I am still puzzled by everything with clean sounds.  I went step by step through geppert's instructions (nicely laid out -- thank you!).  My clean sound is still not that loud, even with the Master at 3:00.  If I add more drive, it starts to get that grit to it.  

 

I've noticed a few things and tried a few:

 

1) Topology 2 seems more than twice as loud as Topology 1.  I put Channel A on Top 1, maxed out the channel volume, and had the Drive about halfway up.  I put Channel B on Top 2, with the same Drive setting, but channel volume at around 11:00. (Class A/B and Pentode on both channels).  Channel B was at least as loud as A.  Top 2 seems even louder than Top 4, which I thought would have felt the loudest.  It is this discrepancy that is hindering my progress.  My overall goal was to get patch volumes at about the same level, both clean and crunch, and then nudge up the lead patches a bit more.  If the clean ones always sound so quiet, then I find myself turning down the crunch patches so much that overall the amp is not that loud at all.

 

2) The saturation/grit that comes cranking the Master volume for a clean sound is most noticeable on my bridge humbucker.  (I have a PRS McCarty).  In fact, when I do the push/pull coil split thing, I don't get that grit it all - it's quite clean. It's as if that bridge humbucker is overloading the signal.

 

3) For the heck of it, I dug out my old Pod XT, ran my guitar into and put the output into the DT25 fx return.  Setting the Pod XT to a clean sound (Double Verb), I had a really nice clean tone -- more like what I've been trying to get!  I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from this.  I prefer my pod hd500 for crunch sounds over the old XT, so I don't want to make the XT the solution.

 

I can't get past the feeling that somehow the clean sounds just aren't that loud.  I know you can add tube compression in the pod hd to make the sound louder, but I find that tends to increase the saturation effect.  I also have the mixer up to +8, so I've tried that.  I also can't get past the feeling that *something* has happened over the past few months, as I don't recall feeling this way about the clean sounds when I first got it.  

 

Still loving the crunchy aspect of this amp, especially when linked with the pod hd500; best tones I've ever got.


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#9 grandinq

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 06:17 PM

I tried something else as well. I put the old pod xt with the Fender clean patch into the fx loop of the pod hd500. I was able to get some good volume for a clean sound -- although it was the xt sound running into the hd, so it was a little odd. I suppose I could use this as a solution but I really don't want to drag around the old pod xt just for a clean sound.
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#10 grandinq

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 06:19 PM

I tried something else as well. I put the old pod xt with the Fender clean patch into the fx loop of the pod hd500. I was able to get some good volume for a clean sound -- although it was the xt sound running into the hd, so it was a little odd. I suppose I could use this as a solution but I really don't want to drag around the old pod xt just for a clean sound.
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#11 stumblinman

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 06:53 PM

Have you ever replaced the tubes? Have you ran the HD500 through a PA to see if the dirt is from your modeler or the amp itself? Are you using preamp models or full? Using L6 Link or some other method of connection? You should be able to get great cleans well up past noon. 


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#12 boyce89976

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 08:44 PM

Played with this a little bit today.  Wife and kids were gone, so I took the opportunity to "dime" the DT to full master volume.  Master on the POD HD was at about 3 o'clock... REALLY LOUD!  I only did it for a literally a couple of minutes, and my ears were actually ringing afterwards.  But, I was able to get pristine cleans at that volume.  Overdrive patches were equally stunning!  

 

Using the Blackface LUX PRE, in Class A/B, Pentode, Topology 3 for the clean sound.  


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#13 grandinq

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:04 AM

Played with this a little bit today.  Wife and kids were gone, so I took the opportunity to "dime" the DT to full master volume.  Master on the POD HD was at about 3 o'clock... REALLY LOUD!  I only did it for a literally a couple of minutes, and my ears were actually ringing afterwards.  But, I was able to get pristine cleans at that volume.  Overdrive patches were equally stunning!  

 

Using the Blackface LUX PRE, in Class A/B, Pentode, Topology 3 for the clean sound.  

 

Just tried this.  Much to my disappointment, my ears weren't ringing on these settings.  When I switched to a Marshall/Park sound, then my ears were feeling it.  Not with the Fender clean models (Double or Lux) -- just not that loud, given where the amp settings were.  I think I may bring it somewhere to get new tubes.


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#14 radatats

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:40 AM

yeah, something doesn't sound right here.  My DT25 through a 2X12 cab is deafening at those levels, at least in my space, certainly much different in a larger venue or outdoors...


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#15 radatats

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:55 AM

Try these patches I worked on for clean tones at high DT master level.  Set DT master to 3 o'clock, POD master maxed, guitar volume max...  Dbl Clean seemed to stay clean but Lux Clean just went to a sweet dirt with the DT master turned up that I really like... 

 

I ended up setting them up as dual amps letting some raw guitar signal through on channel B and it took some harshness off and I changed cabs.  Play around with it, mute channel B, change input settings, whatever, let me know if you like them...  Go higher on the mixer gain if you like until it gets where you want it.

 

http://line6.com/cus...ne/tone/256931/ - Blackface Dbl Clean

 

http://line6.com/cus...ne/tone/256932/ - Blackface Lux Clean

 

By the way, my patches are not necessarily geared towards recording, they are pretty much all for live use with a DT amp and L6 connection.  They may not sound the same under other conditions or with other rigs.


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#16 grandinq

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:40 PM

Try these patches I worked on for clean tones at high DT master level.  Set DT master to 3 o'clock, POD master maxed, guitar volume max...  Dbl Clean seemed to stay clean but Lux Clean just went to a sweet dirt with the DT master turned up that I really like... 

 

I ended up setting them up as dual amps letting some raw guitar signal through on channel B and it took some harshness off and I changed cabs.  Play around with it, mute channel B, change input settings, whatever, let me know if you like them...  Go higher on the mixer gain if you like until it gets where you want it.

 

http://line6.com/cus...ne/tone/256931/ - Blackface Dbl Clean

 

http://line6.com/cus...ne/tone/256932/ - Blackface Lux Clean

 

By the way, my patches are not necessarily geared towards recording, they are pretty much all for live use with a DT amp and L6 connection.  They may not sound the same under other conditions or with other rigs.

 

Thanks for the patches!  Like you, I am using these patches just for live use, DT25 and PodHD500.  

 

The Lux is much louder than the Double.  I loved the phrase "sweet dirt."  It's so hard to describe sound, but that one's a keeper!  I wish I could get the Double as loud as the Lux -- that would be the tone I am looking for (pristine but loud), though I also like the Lux a lot.

 

I always thought great crunch and high gain tones were the hardest to get, but I've been getting plenty of satisfying sounds for those. Go figure!


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#17 radatats

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:47 PM

try pushing the mixer gain to max for the Dbl Clean and see how it sounds...  Also, consider changing the amp model with the same setup.  Hiwatt and Slo Clean are others to try...  So many options so little time... LOL...


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#18 grandinq

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:02 AM

This morning (wife and kid out again -- lucky me for volume purposes!) I tried the Gibtone amp with the drive low.  I actually used a full model as well instead of the pre.  I am getting closer to a good plain clean sound!  Thanks radatats and everyone for all the advice -- you guys opened me up to ideas I hadn't thought of.

 

I still wonder if my Double/Twin model is not working right; it's still the quietest of all.  I don't recall it being like that when I first got the amp.


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#19 boyce89976

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 09:57 AM

This morning (wife and kid out again -- lucky me for volume purposes!) I tried the Gibtone amp with the drive low.  I actually used a full model as well instead of the pre.  I am getting closer to a good plain clean sound!  Thanks radatats and everyone for all the advice -- you guys opened me up to ideas I hadn't thought of.

 

I still wonder if my Double/Twin model is not working right; it's still the quietest of all.  I don't recall it being like that when I first got the amp.

 

Try the PHD Motorway too... With the drive all the way up in the amp model, I couldn't get any real saturation out of it at any volume.  The drive control seems to do a good job of emulating the tube compression of the original, resulting in singing sustain with a clean sound.  It's also the thickest sounding clean tone I've been able to get out of the POD.  Great for a Strat or a Tele.  


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#20 radatats

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 05:48 PM

This morning (wife and kid out again -- lucky me for volume purposes!) I tried the Gibtone amp with the drive low.  I actually used a full model as well instead of the pre.  I am getting closer to a good plain clean sound!  Thanks radatats and everyone for all the advice -- you guys opened me up to ideas I hadn't thought of.

 

I still wonder if my Double/Twin model is not working right; it's still the quietest of all.  I don't recall it being like that when I first got the amp.

 

Try my Dbl Clean patch again but switch to Class A, I forgot and left it at Class A/B.  That means we are running at 10 watts, switch it up to 25 watts and it gets louder!


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#21 boyce89976

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 07:51 PM

Try my Dbl Clean patch again but switch to Class A, I forgot and left it at Class A/B.  That means we are running at 10 watts, switch it up to 25 watts and it gets louder!

 

I think you mean that the other way around?  Class A is 10 watts, Class A/B is 25.  

 

Class A will run out of headroom and begin to clip/saturate much sooner as you increase volume.  For some reason (I haven't played with it enough yet to figure out why) Class A is louder than Class A/B up to a point.   

 

Almost all power amps run in Class A up to a certain output.  For example, my Parasound Halo runs Class A up to about 25 watts, then switches automatically to Class A/B when the required load exceeds the Class A bias.  So, it may have something to do with the fact that you can SELECT Class A or Class A/B and "lock in" that class in the DT's, or it could be the way the power amp section in the DT's is biased.  Would love for someone to chime in here that knows more about this stuff than I do.   


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#22 radatats

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:18 PM

yep, you got me hard on that one... :huh:  

 

8.  Class A / Class AB SwitchClass A operation is more dynamic with greater touch sensitivity. Use Class AB operation for greater headroom and power. In addition to setting the operating class, this switch also determines the wattage and bias type: When set to Class A the amp is running at 10 Watts and cathode biased. When set to Class AB the amp is running at 25 Watts and fixed biased.  Try both settings with each voicing to see what sounds best to you.


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#23 boyce89976

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:21 PM

yep, you got me hard on that one... :huh:

 

8.  Class A / Class AB SwitchClass A operation is more dynamic with greater touch sensitivity. Use Class AB operation for greater headroom and power. In addition to setting the operating class, this switch also determines the wattage and bias type: When set to Class A the amp is running at 10 Watts and cathode biased. When set to Class AB the amp is running at 25 Watts and fixed biased.  Try both settings with each voicing to see what sounds best to you.

 

Hey, just trying to help!   ^_^


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#24 CrispyFunk

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 08:35 AM

i was wondering if your using your amp with the low volume switch on?  i noticed when in low volume mode the sound breaks up a whole lot sooner than if it was in normal tube mode. i use low volume mode most of the time for bedroom levels .


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#25 radatats

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 08:42 AM

Personally I do not use the LVM.  Just Pre models into the DT with DT master up and POD master to control volume.  You can also lower the volume with Class AB and Triode mode...  I know Class A is 10 watts and Class AB is 25 but I swear Class A is louder...

 

I played around with the PHD and the 9/15 models last night and really found some sweet spots.  Very interesting with the double drive settings on the 9/15.  Just learning more about using this gear all the time...

 

Luckily I don't get too many complaints at home and can turn it up to a decent level...  No work tomorrow (Happy New Year!) so I will be trying out some more new ideas... :D


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#26 boyce89976

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Posted 31 December 2013 - 04:32 PM

Personally I do not use the LVM.  Just Pre models into the DT with DT master up and POD master to control volume.  You can also lower the volume with Class AB and Triode mode...  I know Class A is 10 watts and Class AB is 25 but I swear Class A is louder...

 

I played around with the PHD and the 9/15 models last night and really found some sweet spots.  Very interesting with the double drive settings on the 9/15.  Just learning more about using this gear all the time...

 

Luckily I don't get too many complaints at home and can turn it up to a decent level...  No work tomorrow (Happy New Year!) so I will be trying out some more new ideas... :D

 

^  This is exactly how I do it too... LVM just seems a little too sterile.  The way radatats explains gives you tube warmth all the time.

 

I have changed a couple of old patches over to the PHD (mainly for the songs I play on the Strat)... gives the Strat a really ballsy, fat sound without loosing the jangle.   


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#27 grandinq

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:21 PM

I'm a very happy to report a great update to my original issue!

 

I replaced the tubes and wow! the amp I knew and loved was back!!!  My clean sounds were clean and loud, and only gritty if I really crank the drive.

 

Moral of the story for me: make sure to keep those tubes fresh!  

 

Now I will enjoy my DT25 again....until I read about the Jan 23 "reinvention" of the amp!

 

Thanks to all who replied.  I am saving you advice.  Great forum


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#28 boyce89976

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:00 PM

Glad you got it working!
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