Jump to content


Photo

I Had To Roll Back From 2.0 To 1.9


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Jhatem81

Jhatem81

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 26 posts

Posted 28 December 2013 - 03:39 PM

I did the update and there was a noticeable volume decrease on the high B and High E string....for the tele and strat models. I mean really bad. I tried to update using workbench but every string was set to 100% volume anyway. Then i tried upping the overal DB of the patch but even though it was louder overall, it still had the volume decrease in High B/A. 

Did anyone get this? How did you adjust/ Not happy about this....i went back to 1.9 and everything sounds good again


  • 0

#2 Inerzia

Inerzia

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 169 posts

Posted 28 December 2013 - 05:34 PM

It has happened to a lot of people here.
For a while I tried to make it work, balancing the overall and the individual string volumes the best I could,
but it wasn't just a matter of volume, there were tone differences between strings too, so, in the end,

I rolled back to 1.9, and that's what I have now.
I hope they fix that.


  • 1

#3 aeugle

aeugle

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 152 posts
  • LocationMunich, Germany

Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:29 AM

me too. These models are crap


  • 0

#4 katiekerry

katiekerry

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • LocationMinnesota

Posted 29 December 2013 - 01:28 AM

Yeah I had the same issues, and others after the upgrade.. I also rolled back, I still think it should have been a Beta release so people would have known how half baked that update was...  So you are not alone....


  • 2

JTV 59 Tobacco Burst

HD500

Alesis DM10 Studio

 


#5 broker2

broker2

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 74 posts

Posted 29 December 2013 - 07:22 AM

A lot of us had those problems.


  • 1

#6 phil_m

phil_m

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 5489 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis, MN

Posted 29 December 2013 - 09:00 AM

I notice a slight volume drop on the B and E strings, but it's not enough that it sounds unnatural to me. I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't simply decrease the volume of the other strings and increase the overall volume of the patch. I understand that there will still be volume differences between the models, but that's what happens in real life, too. A Les Paul has a much hotter output than a Strat, typically. Oddly enough, if you look around different forums, having lower volume on the E and B strings is a pretty common complaint/observance with real Strats and Teles. So perhaps this is just something that was inherent to the guitars Line 6 chose to model.


  • 0
Time is a train
Makes the future the past
Leaves you standing in the station
Your face pressed up against the glass

 


#7 Inerzia

Inerzia

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 169 posts

Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:41 AM

I notice a slight volume drop on the B and E strings, but it's not enough that it sounds unnatural to me. I'm having a hard time understanding why you can't simply decrease the volume of the other strings and increase the overall volume of the patch. I understand that there will still be volume differences between the models, but that's what happens in real life, too. A Les Paul has a much hotter output than a Strat, typically. Oddly enough, if you look around different forums, having lower volume on the E and B strings is a pretty common complaint/observance with real Strats and Teles. So perhaps this is just something that was inherent to the guitars Line 6 chose to model.

Lucky you, Phil, for me it wouldn't qualify as "slight", but more in the range of 6db... even the differences are inconsistent, it seems...
As I said, I tried to make it work, but it wouldn't sound right no matter how many times I succesfully (according to the monkey) flashed with 2.0 or how many tweaks I made.
Maybe some real strats and teles have some volume differences between strings (I'll take your word for it, no need to look it up) but I wouldn't tolerate such a behavior
in a supposedly professional instrument. I'd return it or try to fix it immediately. I consider it a fault, an inconsistency.
Most people, me included, would prefer something more even, I think.
Even if volume differences between strings or between models are something desirable, why not present even volumes by default and leave it up to us to drop some of them if we wish to do so?
I get it, a real LP sounds hotter/louder than a strat, but those two are two different guitars. When I pick one guitar, I expect it to be consistent from pickup to pickup, and also from model to model if it's something like the variax, so that I can freely switch between them without having to touch the volume pot, unless I want to.
And, if preHD firmware versions of the models had even volumes when the real guitars wouldn't, why the h€ll change that now? Unless it is a bug...


  • 1

#8 arislaf

arislaf

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1095 posts
  • LocationGreece

Posted 29 December 2013 - 10:42 AM

witch means that line6 doesn't care to take the best of if this was their point when they decide to choose which model to put into...There shouldn't be a reason to decrease the volume, or stuff the model knob, or adjust the volume pot screw, from first hand.

For a line6 instrument that even the korean guitars are expensive, there should be better QC before release at anything...

 

P.S. I am not fighting you phill, you really saved a lot of people, ang I understand that as an expert you must calm us down, but this is really something that even you should be angry about (QC of latest line 6 product-fw)..


  • 0

#9 phil_m

phil_m

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 5489 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis, MN

Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:01 AM

I don't know why the difference in string volumes seems to affect some guitars more than others. I suspect it might be differences in the volumes of the piezos themselves. Perhaps in 1.9 Line 6 was doing something more to deal with these inconsistencies through compression or something - I don't know. On mine, I'd say the difference in levels between the E and B strings and the others is probably less than 1db. I only noticed it because I specifically listened for it.

 

I get it, a real LP sounds hotter/louder than a strat, but those two are two different guitars. When I pick one guitar, I expect it to be consistent from pickup to pickup, and also from model to model if it's something like the variax, so that I can freely switch between them without having to touch the volume pot, unless I want to.

 

Well, personally, I'd say I want a modeled Les Paul to react like a real Les Paul. The hotter output from a guitar with humbuckers is integral to how that guitar drives an amp, reacts with pedals, etc. So I don't think the levels should be entirely consistent between the different models. If someone wants to make it so the volume differences are less pronounced, that's a pretty easy fix in Workbench.


  • 0
Time is a train
Makes the future the past
Leaves you standing in the station
Your face pressed up against the glass

 


#10 Inerzia

Inerzia

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 169 posts

Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:12 AM

 If someone wants to make it so the volume differences are less pronounced, that's a pretty easy fix in Workbench.

And why not the other way round, as it was before HD? Why change it deliberately?
I bought a guitar that is partially digital, and that digital part is updateable/upgradeable, so I expect it to be updated/upgraded from time to time, but changing the volume paradigm from "evenness" to "variety" is not what I would call a step forward, specially when it is such a pretty easy fix that those interested could have been making, up until now. Did you ever feel the need to lower the strat models for the sake of realism?


  • 1

#11 phil_m

phil_m

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 5489 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis, MN

Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:35 AM

Did you ever feel the need to lower the strat models for the sake of realism?

 

No, to be honest with you, levels aren't something I obsess over that much. Even before I had the JTV, I would use three or four different guitars at a gig, each with different output levels, and somehow I managed to make it work. I never thought the Strat model before was too hot, but I do feel that the 2.0 Strat model is more realistic all around.

 

I'm not trying to argue for just the sake of arguing. I just feel like there's a lot of controversy around the HD update that I find hard to understand. I guess I'm trying to filter out what is simply a preference versus what are legitimate bugs/deficiencies. It seems that a lot of the level issues come down to preferences. It does also seem that different guitars react differently. I only have my one JTV, so I don't have any way to test it. I think the issue is frustrating to people because everything we see here is anecdotal evidence that none of us can fully reproduce.


  • 0
Time is a train
Makes the future the past
Leaves you standing in the station
Your face pressed up against the glass

 


#12 Charlie_Watt

Charlie_Watt

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1106 posts

Posted 29 December 2013 - 12:48 PM

I am with Phil on this.  The 2.0 models are fine on my 69S.  The B and High E are on the low side for some models but not that much and the models sound ok after a little tweaking.


  • 0

#13 katiekerry

katiekerry

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 120 posts
  • LocationMinnesota

Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:52 PM

I am with Phil on this.  The 2.0 models are fine on my 69S.  The B and High E are on the low side for some models but not that much and the models sound ok after a little tweaking.

Yeah I also had spent a month or so tweaking, String volumes ( overal volumes had to reduce other strings by up to 8db on some models), Pickup configurations, body types and pot variations.  Even with the accoustic models had to dial back volume still sounded overdriven or way to much reverb or room ambience or something.  I thought I had it worked out pretty decent.. Then one day I decided to roll back and see why others rolled back also.. wow what a difference it made the only model I mis from 2.0 is the Tele  the rest for my personal taste sounded better in 1.9 and I didn't have to do any adjustments through work bench so I am staying at 1.9....  hopefully like someone else stated its just a glitch with our guitars either way I am happy with 1.9 and I am OK with it..


  • 0

JTV 59 Tobacco Burst

HD500

Alesis DM10 Studio

 


#14 edstar1960

edstar1960

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1195 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 08 May 2014 - 08:52 AM

This has happened again with v2.1

 

I am trying to gather info and ask Line 6 to fix the issue, and I am gathering info in this thread to hopefully get it fixed:

 

http://line6.com/sup...-flash-upgrade/


  • 0

#15 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 832 posts

Posted 08 May 2014 - 11:01 AM

me too. These models are crap

 

Really? Working on it for 2-3 years and they're crap? Perhaps rushed, but not crap. I agree they need to fix some of the unrealistic issues the guitar has.

 

One thing I have to question is this "sustain" emulation. First off, what if we have a 69? That's a strat guitar already, wouldn't the hardware already compromise sustain? If anything, Strat needs to be left alone and LP and others need to be boosted in sustain with a subtle compressor.

 

I also agree with the string volume issue. Unless they're absolutely sure that's how a strat acts, then I don't think it should be doing that. It also doesn't count if it's because the guitar you modeled has the pickups extremely low riding on the treble side. Set the guitar up properly.

 

I wonder if they still did things through algorithmal frequency analyzing processes and if they did something strange to some of the guitars that makes it a bit off. I'm not sure how that all happens, but obviously if it's doing something it shouldn't do, they need to be fixed.

 

I think disregarding that, they sound really great, like I said, they need to fix some of the glitches, and yes there are glitches whether or not you want to admit it.

 

Perhaps it's hardware issue as well, that for some reason there's a difference between piezo e and b on people's guitars that gets thrown off harder on 2.0/2.1 than 1.9 and below.

If that IS an issue though, I highly suggest adjusting the global volumes on the E and B even if it sounds fine on the LP and other humbucker guitars. 

 

What you should do is run it into a DAW or something you can analyze the volumes with. Hit each string and make sure they're at the right settings you'd like. I prefer all the volumes to be even so that a string doesn't drown out another string when playing chords.

Play each string as hard as you can and even out the volumes between them all. 

 

It's how I set up the string volume on my 600, sounds great. Just high enough to be loud and just low enough for all the models not to clip the signal.


  • 1

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#16 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 832 posts

Posted 08 May 2014 - 12:22 PM

All this will accomplish is trading one problem for another. If some models sound balanced and others do not, then using the global string volumes to address the issue will only serve to fix one model, while ruining others. In the above scenario, adjust the affected models, and leave everything else alone. Otherwise all you've done is go from good Les Pauls and lousy Strats, to good Strats and lousy Les Pauls. Adjusting global settings in the absence of a global problem doesn't make any sense.

 

You do have string volume adjustments on a patch-by-patch basis so you could always use that, you know. The problem is not impossible to address, but the guitar should definitely not have the problem if your strings ARE balanced.

 

Like I said, it could be a hardware problem with the piezos, so why would it be that the people who aren't having the volume problem not be complaining about the other models being too loud on the e and b strings? Just give it a try, that's all.


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#17 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 832 posts

Posted 08 May 2014 - 03:45 PM

You're missing my point. Why are some people not having trouble with the E & B string then? 

If it's a hardware issue with the piezos being unbalanced then why aren't they complaining about the LP being too loud on the E & B strings? All I'm saying is try and see if it DOES fix the problem.

 

The main reason why the string volume existed wasn't for preference but to balance out piezos being uneven in volume. All I'm saying is give it a try. Maybe you just can't hear it on the LP because it's more compressed. The whole problem could be that the E and B string volumes are too low in general, not for that set.

 

You understand?


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#18 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 832 posts

Posted 08 May 2014 - 10:47 PM

Then why doesn't everyone complain about the volumes? It can't be software if it doesn't happen to everyone.

 

Also, it's not an assumption, it's a fact. It's why the original workbench has a global string setting but not a patch-by-patch string volume ability. The update for HD to adjust string volume is most likely for further customization.


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#19 edstar1960

edstar1960

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1195 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 09 May 2014 - 12:21 AM

Then why doesn't everyone complain about the volumes? It can't be software if it doesn't happen to everyone.

 

 

 

From all the reports I have read it seems that the problem has varying degrees of severity - for most people it's so subtle they don't even register it unless they go looking for it and even then it doesn't bother them - for others the difference in volumes is so significant they have to be fixed and people either tweak in Workbench or they roll back to v1.9.   And some people have reported that reflashing the firmware several times either resolves or significantly reduces the problem.

Nobody can understand why a reflash helps but it seems it does.  So the evidence does seem to point to a software glitch that has varying effect on users.

 

Bottom line is that something is wrong and it should be fixed, we just need to narrow down where Line6 need to look for the problem and help them reproduce it and then hopefully they will fix it for us.   I have raised a support ticket for the issue and they are looking into it.   I will be providing them an audio file with evidence of the severity of the issue today, as my JTV59 did have a significant string volume difference on E and B  for T-MOD 1,3,5, and SPANK 1-5 . when I rolled to v2.1 -   I had to roll it back to v1.9 for a gig - but now I need to reflash and recreate the issue and record it for them.


  • 1

#20 edstar1960

edstar1960

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1195 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 09 May 2014 - 01:08 AM

I have attached an audio clip demonstrating problem to this thread: http://line6.com/sup...-flash-upgrade/

 

It demonstrates a T-MOD pos 1, I play twice from high E to low E on the 5th fret, using an AC-15 model, then I engage default NOISE GATE and TUBE DRIVE and play the notes twice again which just serves to emphasise the effect.

When you view it in a DAW you can clearly see how each note increases in volume, revealing that all strings are affected, and that there is in fact just a steady crescendo through to the low E.  Please note I picked each note with the same standard intensity.  I wasn't trying to pick lightly or pick as hard as I could - just a steady constant pick.


  • 0

#21 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 832 posts

Posted 09 May 2014 - 05:50 AM

 

Then why doesn't everyone complain about the volumes?

 

Because not every one has the problem. That much is obvious. I don't know what's causing it, and I never claimed that I did. But I am capable of evaluating the available evidence and applying basic logic to rule things out. Which leads us to:

 

It can't be software if it doesn't happen to everyone.

 

And it can't be hardware if the VERY SAME GUITAR functions normally with one firmware version, malfunctions with another, and returns to normal with the re-installation of the older firmware. The guitar and all it's hardware neither knows nor cares what firmware version is installed. Hardware either works, or it doesn't. So here we are...I don't know the cause, and neither do you. It's for the L6 engineers to figure out.

 

 

Also, it's not an assumption, it's a fact.

 

The only FACT is that the old Workbench was different. It had fewer options for adjusting string volume. I don't know why they changed it, and neither do you. Ergo, proclaiming to know otherwise is an assumption. Somebody saw the need...maybe they knew the new HD models were gonna be very different with regard to relative volumes, maybe it was a bunch of requests from ideascale...I don't know, only the engineers do. We can all guess until we turn blue and pass out. Won't make any of us right, except by chance.

 

It's why the original workbench has a global string setting but not a patch-by-patch string volume ability. The update for HD to adjust string volume is most likely for further customization.

 

Oh, I see...so yesterday personal preference had nothing to do with it, and today it does. What will be the reason tomorrow?

 

 

Lovely. You're completely missing my point. I'm saying it was originally for optimizing volume on your guitar ON THE OLD WORKBENCH, not new. Perhaps the new volume levels are for adjustment and not preference, but it would indicate laziness on their side. I don't see the point in having hardcoded some volume defaults for it to be the correct volumes on the strings on a patch by patch basis. If they honestly said "Throw this in and let them figure it out themselves" it's a pretty bad resolve for the problem. 


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 


#22 clay-man

clay-man

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 832 posts

Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:52 PM

I missed nothing. I addressed what you've said point by point. We just don't agree, and thats fine. I'm not taking it personally because neither one of us really knows the root cause of the problem anyway. We're both guessing.

Initially I only took issue with your advice to adjust global volume settings when the problem only exists for one or two models, and I maintain that to be pointless, as you'll only succeed in moving the same problem to another location. But do what you like, I surrender. Neither one of us will convince the other of anything. You want to be right? Fine you're right. Changing settings on every model to solve a problem with one is a terrific idea. Happy Friday!

 

If it is software then yes you are correct. I just don't understand what is causing people's firmware to f up to cause that problem. I still stand by my claim that the original Variax's global string setting is to calibrate the piezo volumes


  • 0

For a minute there, I lost myself.

Radiohead_bear-728286%5B1%5D.png 





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users