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#21 radatats

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 11:33 AM

I see what you are saying but I never felt it really worked that way.  I may be wrong but I look at it like 3 separate levels of gain staging.  If I am forced to keep the POD master full up, the only way I can lower the signal to the power section to allow me to turn up the horsepower is to lower the audio level being carried on the signal to the power section.  Doesn't seem the same.  Plus I either have to adjust every patch individually to change volume or turn down the DT master, exactly what I don't want to do.

 

And the bigger engine is what gives us head room and the ability to respond to transients and pick attack.  Both engines may get us to 10 mph but the big engine can easily spurt up to 50 mph...

 

That's it from me... If anyone else can explain it better or differently please have at it...


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#22 innovine

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:17 PM

Just tried with the pod master down and the dt at max, then with the dt down and the pod at max. I've turned it down pretty far so as to not wake the kids, buti can't hear any difference at all. Bf double nrm, pretty clean. Maybe the difference only shows up after a certain volume? I was told the power amp dist wouldn't be heard at home listening levels tho. What am I missing?
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#23 innovine

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:21 PM

Alsoe I see how the pod master is useful as a gain control, but NOT how it contributes to better tone, or to replace an attenuator.

(you could by the way reduce the signal by putting some level control in the amps loop, but I totall see your point and fudlyeagree that its useful)
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#24 boyce89976

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:30 PM

Just tried with the pod master down and the dt at max, then with the dt down and the pod at max. I've turned it down pretty far so as to not wake the kids, buti can't hear any difference at all. Bf double nrm, pretty clean. Maybe the difference only shows up after a certain volume? I was told the power amp dist wouldn't be heard at home listening levels tho. What am I missing?

 

I don't think you'd be able to hear a difference with this test... volume is too low.  The idea radatats was trying to convey is that there is greater headroom available if the DT Master is all the way up using the POD Master to control output volume... to hear the difference, you'd have to play at such a volume for the "High POD Master/Low DT Master" scenario to clip.  

 

Another way to think about it is in live sound you run your power amps at full gain, to get the most headroom and control the output volume with the mixing console master faders.  


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#25 wolbai

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 12:32 PM

Just tried with the pod master down and the dt at max, then with the dt down and the pod at max. I've turned it down pretty far so as to not wake the kids, buti can't hear any difference at all. Bf double nrm, pretty clean. Maybe the difference only shows up after a certain volume? I was told the power amp dist wouldn't be heard at home listening levels tho. What am I missing?

 

A clean amp like a BF Double will not show that much difference in tone when turning up the power section on your DT (the only exception his, if you hit the string very hard you will not hear distortion). This is pretty much the same as the the original amp (I think Fender Twin Reverb) behaves. This amps stays clean at the highest volume levels. That is why many people love this amp for its outstanding cleaness.

 

The difference can be heard with amps which needs a hard hit on the power section to get saturated. These amps are for example Marshall Plexi, or the PARK-75. Try them. Set your Pod Master volume at around 50% and your DT master volume to 1 or 2 o clock (that is a volume level a play at rehearsal room with my band). Do the same with these amps with Master volume on your DT at 25% and the POD HD master volume at 100%. Don't use any distortion, OD effects or compressors in the signal chain. You should hear a significant distortion  level with DT Master volume turned up compared to the second test.


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#26 ahrens

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 11:48 AM

Dang, this is a great update/feature! Of course the XTLive had it years ago.  God do I wish I had some of those badass amp models from the XTLive in the HD500(Metal Pack, ect…)

 

Happy New Year!

(note to self…more time playing/songwriting/recording…less time tweaking…)


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#27 Metalchef

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 02:19 PM

Good job wolbai.... That's why I like the forum.... Just when u can't figure out how to 'splain something someone comes in and gives a great example.
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Yes I hear the cries of the carrots.... For it is harvest day and to them it is the Holocaust..... So I say let the rabbits wear glasses....

#28 MartinDorr

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:24 PM

Have similar experience as 'innovine' although I think there is a bit more going on.

Despite that general position, I think the Master Volume is a great new feature addition as it replaces all my trailing volume pedals that allow me to adjust easily to venue volume needs.

Will scratch my plan to get an external pedal for dynamic volume or Wah (save $50 or more) and one gets essentially another effect slot if you used the Volume pedal like I did.

 

That said I think there is a bit of a tone change when trading off Channel Volume with Master Volume. I did not expect that as I also thought Channel Volume does the same as Master Volume except on a different point in the signal chain after the amp.

My current best guess is that Channel Volume does not act on the output of the preamp amp model but on the input to the preamp, i.e., it acts like a clean boost, and thus Channel Volume and Master Volume do not have the same effect even if there are no post amp effects (which would throw another wrench into the picture).

 

Time for more experimentation. By the way, I also suspect that the preamp Drive setting is made available to the DT power amps and it impacts output volume on the DT. You can try this out by using USB to perfectly balance the preamp output signal for a number of same high gain amp type/tube/mode settings and then check volume when played through the DT. You will find some significant volume differences although the visible DT settings will not change at all and the input signal coming out of the different preamps is pretty much the same (use high resolution RMS and not peak metering to blance volume).

 

Martin


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#29 saTa

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:22 AM

I'm not sure this has to do with the update or if something's broken... but all my presets sound completely different (much cleaner and quieter) than before. I have to turn the Master on my DT25 up all the way and still can't hear myself in the rehearsal room whereas it used to be fine at around 35-40% up. Am I wrong in assuming that it all should sound exactly the same with the master on the HD500 all the way up? Well, it doesn't... :(


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#30 boyce89976

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:40 PM

I'm not sure this has to do with the update or if something's broken... but all my presets sound completely different (much cleaner and quieter) than before. I have to turn the Master on my DT25 up all the way and still can't hear myself in the rehearsal room whereas it used to be fine at around 35-40% up. Am I wrong in assuming that it all should sound exactly the same with the master on the HD500 all the way up? Well, it doesn't... :(

 

Sounds like you might have an amp issue, or your POD settings have changed for some reason.  


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#31 grandinq

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 06:44 AM

I'm not sure this has to do with the update or if something's broken... but all my presets sound completely different (much cleaner and quieter) than before. I have to turn the Master on my DT25 up all the way and still can't hear myself in the rehearsal room whereas it used to be fine at around 35-40% up. Am I wrong in assuming that it all should sound exactly the same with the master on the HD500 all the way up? Well, it doesn't... :(

 

This is what was happening to me.  Replacing the tubes brought everything back in its loud, tonal glory.


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#32 innovine

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 03:31 AM

The difference can be heard with amps which needs a hard hit on the power section to get saturated. These amps are for example Marshall Plexi, or the PARK-75. Try them. Set your Pod Master volume at around 50% and your DT master volume to 1 or 2 o clock (that is a volume level a play at rehearsal room with my band). Do the same with these amps with Master volume on your DT at 25% and the POD HD master volume at 100%. Don't use any distortion, OD effects or compressors in the signal chain. You should hear a significant distortion  level with DT Master volume turned up compared to the second test.

 

Actually I don't hear any difference. The dt25 is MUCH quieter in the second test you describe, and I need to raise the master on the pod to 11 o lock to get a similar volume level. Maybe there's a mistake in what you described? I was expecting roughly level volumes but these are waay off.

 

I'm using the plex 100 lead nrm pre.

 

You didn't mention the setting for channel volume... so i put it at 100%.

Test 1. With the dt25 master at 9-10 o clock, and pod master at 11 o clock. I can't really play much louder than this...

 

Test 2. The dt25 master at 100% and the pod master at 9 o clock. This gives me the same volume level, and it sounds the same to my ears. Just in case, I miced it up (i didnt try the direct out yet) and listened to the recordings, and I can't tell the difference there either.

 

 

From this I can conclude that either you made a mistake in your numbers above, or that at a bedroom volume level there is no difference whether you crank the dt25 master or lower the master and provide a stronger signal to the power section by cranking the pod master instead. As mentioned, there may be differences if you have reverb or something earlier in the chain, but I Don't hear any difference on the output of the power amp. Perhaps the amp needs to be much louder again?


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#33 wolbai

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 04:29 AM

Actually I don't hear any difference. The dt25 is MUCH quieter in the second test you describe, and I need to raise the master on the pod to 11 o lock to get a similar volume level. Maybe there's a mistake in what you described? I was expecting roughly level volumes but these are waay off.

 

I'm using the plex 100 lead nrm pre.

 

You didn't mention the setting for channel volume... so i put it at 100%.

Test 1. With the dt25 master at 9-10 o clock, and pod master at 11 o clock. I can't really play much louder than this...

 

Test 2. The dt25 master at 100% and the pod master at 9 o clock. This gives me the same volume level, and it sounds the same to my ears. Just in case, I miced it up (i didnt try the direct out yet) and listened to the recordings, and I can't tell the difference there either.

 

 

From this I can conclude that either you made a mistake in your numbers above, or that at a bedroom volume level there is no difference whether you crank the dt25 master or lower the master and provide a stronger signal to the power section by cranking the pod master instead. As mentioned, there may be differences if you have reverb or something earlier in the chain, but I Don't hear any difference on the output of the power amp. Perhaps the amp needs to be much louder again?

 

It is pretty hard to resolve different results at that point. And I doubt whether this is really necessary...  May be the fact that my amp is a DT50 and not a DT25 is a root cause for different tonal results.

 

In any case: I am talking about a gig volume level and not a bedroom volume level. I hardly can imagine to hear that much differences at bedroom levels. I personally do not care that much on the sound at bedroom or headphone levels. I use to practice with my POD HD500 at home and a decent headphone. That is pretty fine for me. And I use mainly the same presets (with pre amp models) as for live gigs. 

 

I have used this new setup on several gigs and for a 3 days studio recording session so far and I am very pleased with a 50%-60% POD Master volume and a 50%-70% DT50 Master volume level. This configuration brings more power section saturation to MY tone than before (old configuration: POD Master volume at 100% and DT50 Master volume at approx. 25%) with SPECIFIC amps as mentioned (not the clean ones).

 

And I can pretty much more easily adapt the overall volume level to the specific environment I am playing without much negative impact on my tone with the POD Master volume as before. There is good range between 40-60% on the POD Master volume to MY ears where I can adapt noticably the overall volume level without loosing too much power section contribution to the tone. And I also agree that the more to you increase the POD Master volume to 100% the better these power section results (on specific amps) are noticeable. But the tradeoff is that the volume level is just too high for most locations to play. 

 

Regarding the Marshall Plexi Lead I am using the Bright pre amp model with amp volume at 100% for Rhythm and lead tones.

On amps like the Soldano and the JCM800 which I use frequently, I also have discovered good results in tone by increase the DT-Master volume and reducing the POD-Master volume (again: at the same HIGH volume level as before). I therefore have kicked out some distortion pedals in several presets or I have reduced noticably effect paramaters like compressors and let therefore the power section contribute to a distorted tone.

 

I do not think that we are talking here on the level of mistakes. Simply speaking if it sounds good to me - it is good and I am not wrong. And it is fair enough to say that this does not necessarily apply to everyone.


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____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

THE RETROMANIAC

Gear: JTV 59, JTV 69, JTV 89F, Godin Progression, Godin Seagull, Gibson Les Paul Deluxe, POD/HD500, DT50/212, DT50/Head, Marshall JVMC212, RIVERA Rockcrusher, Radial JDX Reactor
website: http://www.soundclick.com/wolbai  Band: http://www.jump-backtorock.de/


#34 Slidedude

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 09:53 AM

Has anyone from Line 6 actually chimed in on this new feature? I understand this is probably not the forum for that, but I'm curious.


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#35 saTa

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 03:15 AM

This is what was happening to me.  Replacing the tubes brought everything back in its loud, tonal glory.

Cheers... but it was a strange software issue. Re-installing the firmware and resetting the amp did not work. However, when I used one of the DT editors posted somewhere here on these forums to have a look at the parameters, I found the master knob to be WAY off. When it was turned up all the way on the actual amp, it was at 30-40% in the software. So I cranked it in the software and then moved it on the amp. Now they're back in sync and the amp behaves as expected. Very annoying and many thanks to the guys putting out these DT editors!


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#36 chrishlp

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 07:06 AM

Guys, are you talking about the HD master volume or the amp model master volume?

I've recently have been using the amp master volume on full amp sims and low volume to get greater headroom and dynamics out of the DT tube power stage.
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