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#41 innovine

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 10:48 AM

I think it doesn't matter if its channel volume or pod master, the only thing that produces tube tone is how loud the overall rig is playing at. The advantage of adjusting channel volume is its saved with the patch. Louder rig=more tube distortion. Both pod master and dt master do the exact same thing (uless you use the dt fx loop), so it makes no difference which you crank, only getting more volume out of the speaker gets you more tube tone.
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#42 scotty_burford

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 10:34 PM

I use USB to a MAC running an Izotope high resolution meters (I beleieve there is also some free SW you can get to just measure peak and RMS levels). I also use a Faber SignalScopePro App on an iPhone and iPad and a small USB AD interface from Behringer (UAD-something). You don't need the latter for speaker measurements. You also don't need to calibrate your mic/SPL levels if you are just after relative differences.

Let me know if you want to repeat the measurements that show that channel volume has no tone impact as long as peak level stays at or below -12dBFS range. It takes some prepping using a simple HD tone setup, recording a small loop, and taking a series of measurements a couple of times.

Thanks Martin

So if I may; how do you then use the channel mixer in conjunction with all of this?


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#43 MartinDorr

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 07:54 AM

I think it doesn't matter if its channel volume or pod master, the only thing that produces tube tone is how loud the overall rig is playing at. The advantage of adjusting channel volume is its saved with the patch. Louder rig=more tube distortion. Both pod master and dt master do the exact same thing (uless you use the dt fx loop), so it makes no difference which you crank, only getting more volume out of the speaker gets you more tube tone.

 

 

Thanks Martin

So if I may; how do you then use the channel mixer in conjunction with all of this?

 

As innovine said above what matters are really just 2 things: 2) The tube effect comes into play as overall volume goes up., and 2) If you crank the Channel Volume, Mixer gain (and Pan), and/or Pod Master w/o regard to peak signal levels you will impact the tone delivered to the DT and not just raise volume to get more DT tube effect. I am not saying the former is bad and the latter is good. Just be aware that both exist and may need to be controlled to get the result you are looking for.

 

How you use the individual dials is really up to you and primarily driven by self-imposed rules designed to simplify your personal tone creation. My primary approach is this:

  1. Set the DT Master to 3 o'clock. I get the most 'tube' out of it as far as I can tell. Other DTs may be different. Check for the likely optimal point by looking for minimal difference between peak and RMS output levels.
    While we're at the DT, I am thinking of adding a graphic EQ to my DT effects loop to better adjust to room accoustics (no HD parametric EQ when using L6 Link).
  2. Use HD Master to adjust to venue volume needs (I end up with about 10-11 o'clock at home to give you a ballpark)
  3. Use single path modeling of amps and effects on HD path B! Pan path B center in the mixer
  4. Use path A with a preamp model to select DT power amp and controls only! Mute path A in mixer. This works equally well for effect only, preamp and power amp model tones in path B and has other advantages (see attached file). Move path B models into A if you run out of DSP and don't need (or can't afford) the extra DT power amp control.
  5. Adjust guitar pickup height or volume so that it does not produce a peak HD input signal significantly above -12dBFS
  6. Adjust first effect so that it does produce an HD internal output signal at around -12dBFS peak
  7. Adjust HD effects and amp model chain so that no intermediate signal changes tone volume (check RMS levels if you measure), i.e., if your dial Drive up bring your gain or channel volume down
  8. I use my mixer at the end of the model chain with 0dB gain for my quietest DT power power amp selection (a Class I, AB amp).  
  9. Set mixer to lower gain for all other power amp types to balance tone volume (see attached file for starting points)

I am sure there are a few other ways to get a handle on this and that the above will fail to produce all the results you are looking for. I usually start like this because it allows me to change power amps, venue, or even model elements and only change 1 parameter to keep all tones balanced volume wise.

 

Attached File  DT25 Power Amp Parameters.pdf   159.2KB   493 downloads


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#44 scotty_burford

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 05:04 PM

HI Martin

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that down for me.

I was wondering if I could trouble you for some screen shots (assuming you are using HD Edit) with placement of amps etc on Path A and B as per steps 3, 4 and 8.
if not, I understand and really appreciate your help.
All the best 


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#45 MartinDorr

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:00 AM

I won't be able to get on a computer with my HD attached for a while. I'll just describe how you would set this up from a 'New Tone' slot and memory ...

  1. Start from a default New Tone (4 blue boxes on left and right, empty amp and mixer in the middle connected by path A on top and path B on bottom)
  2. Set Input 1 Source to what you need and leave Input 2 Source at 'Same' (or change to Same; you need the same signal on both path A and B so that the tuner works (it's only using path A signals) and you can run all your modeling on path B). Remember this is not a real dual amp tone because we will mute path A in the mixer.
  3. Move amp box to path A (another empty amp box will appear in path B)
  4. Move all the blue boxes from the left and right to path B in front or after the empty amp box (now the mixer is at the very end and path A only has an empty amp)
  5. Edit the Amps section and select a preamp for Amp A that has the power amp type/class/tube/boost you want to use. Leave Presence at 50% and set all other dials to 0% and Cab Model to No Cab (Mic is ignored w/o a Cab) to indicate that those controls do not matter and to keep DSP use as low as possible.
  6. Edit the Mixer section and set Path A to Mute and Pan of Path B to center. Set path Path B level to gain suggested for the amp type you chose in step 5. For example, if you choose PhD Motorway, select -6.0 dB.
  7. Edit path B to your liking: No amp, preamp or power amp and effects (Note, the amp selection of path B does not select anything on a single DT and the default L6 Link mode, in this setup the only controls affecting the DT are Amp A Presence and selected amp name (to default type/class/tube/boost) and any diverting DT configuration, e.g., use Triode instead of the default Pentode)
  8. Set HD Master to 10-11 o'clock for bed room and DT25 Master to 3 o'clock

Hope this gets you off the ground. Good luck

Martin


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#46 talwilkins

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 01:59 PM

I won't be able to get on a computer with my HD attached for a while. I'll just describe how you would set this up from a 'New Tone' slot and memory ...

  1. Start from a default New Tone (4 blue boxes on left and right, empty amp and mixer in the middle connected by path A on top and path B on bottom)
  2. Set Input 1 Source to what you need and leave Input 2 Source at 'Same' (or change to Same; you need the same signal on both path A and B so that the tuner works (it's only using path A signals) and you can run all your modeling on path B). Remember this is not a real dual amp tone because we will mute path A in the mixer.
  3. Move amp box to path A (another empty amp box will appear in path B)
  4. Move all the blue boxes from the left and right to path B in front or after the empty amp box (now the mixer is at the very end and path A only has an empty amp)
  5. Edit the Amps section and select a preamp for Amp A that has the power amp type/class/tube/boost you want to use. Leave Presence at 50% and set all other dials to 0% and Cab Model to No Cab (Mic is ignored w/o a Cab) to indicate that those controls do not matter and to keep DSP use as low as possible.
  6. Edit the Mixer section and set Path A to Mute and Pan of Path B to center. Set path Path B level to gain suggested for the amp type you chose in step 5. For example, if you choose PhD Motorway, select -6.0 dB.
  7. Edit path B to your liking: No amp, preamp or power amp and effects (Note, the amp selection of path B does not select anything on a single DT and the default L6 Link mode, in this setup the only controls affecting the DT are Amp A Presence and selected amp name (to default type/class/tube/boost) and any diverting DT configuration, e.g., use Triode instead of the default Pentode)
  8. Set HD Master to 10-11 o'clock for bed room and DT25 Master to 3 o'clock

Hope this gets you off the ground. Good luck

Martin

 

I'm not getting it.

Why do you want everything in path B?

Why not have everything in Path A, mute Path B and tell the DT which Power amp settings you want through HD Edit?

I'm positive I'm missing some point here and would really love to know what it is!


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#47 CipherHost

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 03:10 PM

I'm not getting it.

Why do you want everything in path B?

Why not have everything in Path A, mute Path B and tell the DT which Power amp settings you want through HD Edit?

I'm positive I'm missing some point here and would really love to know what it is!

 

Boost On/Off, PIV low/high and Tight/Smooth are not configurable in HD Edit. This could be one reason you might use this method without having to use MIDI.


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#48 MartinDorr

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 03:27 PM

You just missed that we were talking about how select a couple DT features you can't get when you select all models in path A. It can also be used to pick a power amp only in the DT and have no amp in the HD.

 

It's all a bit less interesting as I recently learned that you can also use MIDI to turn on boost a la DT50 in the DT25.

 

This whole dance with putting the models in path B and an amp in path A to control the DT power amp and muting path A in the mixer is only to avoid the MIDI cables and get a little extra Presence control in the DT power amp section. Apparently MIDI allows boost control on all amp types, the scheme described above can only do boost on / off via models Line 6 elected to use the feature in the DT. Line 6 has no builtin amp model that has boost off for type II and IV. You'd need MIDI to turn boost off for those.

 

Hope this explains the puzzle. If the selected amp model selects what you want in the DT you can move path B models to path A and use a single amp (and mute path B instead of A).


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#49 CipherHost

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 03:38 PM

I won't be able to get on a computer with my HD attached for a while. I'll just describe how you would set this up from a 'New Tone' slot and memory ...

  1. Start from a default New Tone (4 blue boxes on left and right, empty amp and mixer in the middle connected by path A on top and path B on bottom)
  2. Set Input 1 Source to what you need and leave Input 2 Source at 'Same' (or change to Same; you need the same signal on both path A and B so that the tuner works (it's only using path A signals) and you can run all your modeling on path B). Remember this is not a real dual amp tone because we will mute path A in the mixer.
  3. Move amp box to path A (another empty amp box will appear in path B)
  4. Move all the blue boxes from the left and right to path B in front or after the empty amp box (now the mixer is at the very end and path A only has an empty amp)
  5. Edit the Amps section and select a preamp for Amp A that has the power amp type/class/tube/boost you want to use. Leave Presence at 50% and set all other dials to 0% and Cab Model to No Cab (Mic is ignored w/o a Cab) to indicate that those controls do not matter and to keep DSP use as low as possible.
  6. Edit the Mixer section and set Path A to Mute and Pan of Path B to center. Set path Path B level to gain suggested for the amp type you chose in step 5. For example, if you choose PhD Motorway, select -6.0 dB.
  7. Edit path B to your liking: No amp, preamp or power amp and effects (Note, the amp selection of path B does not select anything on a single DT and the default L6 Link mode, in this setup the only controls affecting the DT are Amp A Presence and selected amp name (to default type/class/tube/boost) and any diverting DT configuration, e.g., use Triode instead of the default Pentode)
  8. Set HD Master to 10-11 o'clock for bed room and DT25 Master to 3 o'clock

Hope this gets you off the ground. Good luck

Martin

 

Hi Martin,

 

First, thank you for the posts and your DT25 Power Amp Parameters.pdf. I started experimenting today.

 

I have been reading some posts in the POD HD forum (http://line6.com/sup...eating-a-patch/) where a user (rodmoyes) was discussing variations in total volume output between patches at live performance volumes vs lower volumes while creating the patches.

 

My question is this: Do you believe your method, which sets the mixer at the end of the signal chain, would prevent the wide swings in total volume output when switching patches at performance volumes that rodmoyes is experiencing?

 

Thanks


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#50 talwilkins

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 03:08 AM

Thanks for the clarification guys! :)


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#51 MartinDorr

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:39 AM

Hi Martin,

 

First, thank you for the posts and your DT25 Power Amp Parameters.pdf. I started experimenting today.

 

I have been reading some posts in the POD HD forum (http://line6.com/sup...eating-a-patch/) where a user (rodmoyes) was discussing variations in total volume output between patches at live performance volumes vs lower volumes while creating the patches.

 

My question is this: Do you believe your method, which sets the mixer at the end of the signal chain, would prevent the wide swings in total volume output when switching patches at performance volumes that rodmoyes is experiencing?

 

Thanks

 

My method prevents the wide swings caused by the DT power amp configurations, BUT the suggested adjustment of mixer gain just gets you in the ball park because your selected Master Volume on the HD (assuming you follow my strategy to use only this dial for Volume adjustments)  will change your hearing dependent perception of volume in various frequency ranges. On top, you are likely to perceive heavily distored tones to be louder than clean ones (while RMS levels may tell you they are have the same energy, i.e., the closest you can come to measure perceived loudness w/o using actual hearing sensitivity curve adjusted levels). Given that different DT power amp configurations will amplify the full frequency range differently, I think you will need to adjust the mixer gain from the suggested starting points to values that work for your specific tone. It's really just a starting point.

As I said in one of my earlier posts, I am playing with the idea to put a graphic EQ into the DT effects loop to get a handle on venue/room driven frequency adjustments. You could also use this EQ to adjust for your sensitivity of frequencies at different Master volume levels.

We need to realize that reality gets in our way of trying to control everything! All our schemes to deal with these issues boil down to live within the limits of what our equipment does and to personal preferences on how to address any arising problems. One guy likes an elaborate system of what to change and when, and the other just does not care about such systems and is confident to change things on the fly as his ears tell him. As long as it works for you, its good.


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#52 radatats

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 10:23 AM

I'm probably missing something but I am not getting the need to set the power amp in channel A and then using the model in channel B.  Why not just adjust the mixer to whatever model you are choosing in the first place?  sorry if its a dumb question...


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#53 MartinDorr

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 12:03 PM

Yes, this works fine (if you are happy with the DT configuration you get with amp selection and any DT configuration changes available through DT edit or the HD user interface itself).
If you want a tone without an amp model and select a DT power amp, or if you want to control boost on/off w/o using a MIDI cable, or if you want Presence of the DT power amp section to be independently controlled (not the same as used in the HD amp model - an undocumented DT 'feature') you need to use the scheme described above.
There are no dumb questions ;-)
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#54 scotty_burford

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 05:29 PM

Thanks Martin!


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#55 radatats

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 08:30 AM

Martin - I tried setting up a patch the way you described with a Mandarin in A and a Blackface Pete in B and it was fantastic!  I don't know if it was any better than the other way because I didn't do an AB test but this definitely deserves some more testing... 

 

Blue Comp > Color Drive > Blackface Pete > Digital Delay w/Mod and reverb on the DT, Variax Semi 5... WOW!

 

Can't wait to test other ideas and see if there is a real benefit to this method...  :D


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#56 MartinDorr

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 12:33 PM

Don't want to spoil your fun, but 'my scheme' should not make any difference compared to putting everything into path A and change the Mixer to mute B instead of A unless you take advantage of the special DT features this scheme enables.
Only if you actually use boost and the independent DT Presence control to divert from what the amp and DT config selection normally supports(and if your original tone did not have all models in one path) should you get a tone difference.
Anyway, have fun and report back if find more interesting things
Martin
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#57 radatats

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 08:29 AM

Don't want to spoil your fun, but 'my scheme' should not make any difference compared to putting everything into path A and change the Mixer to mute B instead of A unless you take advantage of the special DT features this scheme enables.  Only if you actually use boost and the independent DT Presence control to divert from what the amp and DT config selection normally supports(and if your original tone did not have all models in one path) should you get a tone difference.

 

got it.  I am going to try it with the Supro in II A, everything except PRES set to 0, PRES linked to the exp pedal and the rest as posted above.  If I read your doc right, I should hear a difference as I go from 50 - 100 with PRES.  Is there any way to activate or turn off boost on a DT25 from the POD?


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#58 radatats

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 09:36 AM

oddly enough, the expression pedal does not seem to induce the same behavior!  Physically moving the presence knob does indeed introduce a sweet level of power amp distortion but linked to either exp 1 or 2, the same effect cannot be created with the pedal!

 

But I can say for certain that its a cool trick and sounds fantastic.  :D


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#59 MartinDorr

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 05:23 PM

Good to hear you got the Presence working.

I have not found a way to control boost for Type II and IV power amp settings via L6 Link alone. Per an earlier post boost should be on by default for those amps and controllable via MIDI.

The only new possibility to explore would be if an amp in the new model packs is using type II or IV and by chance defaults to boost off. If you find one for Type II, you can use it in Path A to elect no boost and still use your Supro in Path B. I don't have those model packs so I can't check.

Not the same but a volume lowering and tone changing effect can be had if you switch to Triode via Path A DT settings, though I have no idea whether the Presence or boost control theTriode mode in any form.

Enjoy, Martin


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#60 CipherHost

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 09:35 PM

oddly enough, the expression pedal does not seem to induce the same behavior!  Physically moving the presence knob does indeed introduce a sweet level of power amp distortion but linked to either exp 1 or 2, the same effect cannot be created with the pedal!

 

But I can say for certain that its a cool trick and sounds fantastic.  :D

 

That is really strange. It reminds me of an "out of sync" problem I read before. Would you post the preset so I could confirm the same thing happens on my DT25/500X?


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#61 radatats

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 04:56 AM

That is really strange. It reminds me of an "out of sync" problem I read before. Would you post the preset so I could confirm the same thing happens on my DT25/500X?

 

Yeah, let me know if its just my machine...  I really like the trick though...

 

http://line6.com/cus...e/tone/1108638/


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#62 CipherHost

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 07:43 AM

Yeah, let me know if its just my machine...  I really like the trick though...

 

http://line6.com/cus...e/tone/1108638/

 

Ok. Some bad news and some good news. My setup does the same thing. Only physically turning the Pres knob on either the DT or the HD produces the change in tone. Changing the Pres within POD HD500X EDIT with the mouse or with EXP1 or EXP2 changes nothing. I can see the Pres knob changing in EDIT using the pedal.

 

Then I tried using a MIDI CC to change the Pres parameter. First I set the knobs on the DT and HD to 50% and set FS4 to change CC 21 to a value of 127. That worked. Then I set EXP1 to go from 0 to 127 and that worked as well. So that is a work around. It appears to be an L6 Link software problem that could be fixed with a FW update. Let me know if you do not place a request to have this addressed by Line6. If you don't, I will make the request.

 

I removed the FS4 MIDI CC but left the EXP1 MIDI CC. You will see it is set to change from 0 to 100. I do not have the Models pack so you will have to change AMP B back to Pete or whatever it was when you sent me the file. You will have to change the inputs back to what you had them on before. 

 

http://line6.com/cus...e/tone/1108817/

 

It really is a nice power amp boost. Thanks to MartinDorr for sharing his technique.


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#63 radatats

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 08:08 AM

opened a support ticket but this is probably going to be a tough one for them to even wrap their heads around...

 

we have identified a hidden feature where the PRESENCE knob on certain amps can change the level of power amp distortion when connected by L6 link to an HD500(X). It is an awesome feature. However, we have also discovered that it does not work if changing PRESENCE when linked to an expression pedal. It only works when physically turning the knob on the POD or by sending a midi command to the amp. So the discrepancy to be fixed is - PRESENCE control of power amp distortion does not work over L6 link when using a controller. Here are some links to the threads on the forum detailing our discovery. http://line6.com/sup...ature/?p=105043 Please read all posts that follow as we explain what is happening. You can download the linked PDF as well to see the excellent work Martin did detailing the feature. Hopefully the expression pedal discrepancy can be fixed in a future firmware update, it is really a great feature.


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#64 radatats

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 11:52 AM

after playing with this feature with a bunch of different models, not sure WTF it really does... I am not so sure its power amp distortion as much as actual presence...  towards 100 it gets harsh on some models and seems better suited to just pulling out some highs that may be getting lost in the mud.  Seems like that is what presence is supposed to do, no?  Whatever its a neat trick...  Would be useable if it could be tied to a pedal.


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#65 MartinDorr

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 12:26 PM

I have the same opinion on what these things do.

My initial motivation was to select the power amp when I do not have a power amp in my model chain.

While doing so I found that not all amps are created equal when compared to what one can get using the DT control section from the HD or or editor, i.e., selecting the amp by name makes a difference. ... and so I discovered that there is a boost-like function for the DT25 and that Presence suprisingly also impacts the power amp portion of the DT. In most cases getting these effects are probably not worth the trouble of doing a dual path tone, but it's worth knowing it exists and CAN be used.

Enjoy the ride ;-)

Martin


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