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Line 6 Should Offer Low Cost/free Upgrade From Hd To Hd-x


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#1 DeAllen

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 09:35 AM

I have used Line 6 since they came out. When they went to the 2.0 they offered the chip FREE to those who bought their original within a certain time, $50 for those after that cut-off. I am VERY DISAPPOINTED that Line 6 lacks the integrity to do same with the HD Pro owners to X. They screwed up and packed too many features with an under-powered CPU. I'm ready to dump both HD's, keep my tried and true X3 Pro and NEVER buy another new Line 6 product again and encourage all I know and those I don't through the various social media forums NEVER to buy Line 6 as they no longer have the integrity they did in the beginning UNLESS they resolve this matter. Like most companies that reach a certain status I doubt they will give a damn or come on and put some "word spin" on the matter.....but no amount of "words" makes up for the $699 I spent and now to have a unit that functions properly LINE 6 expects me to spend it again? Nope!

 

I'm sure many won't see it as I do and I don't really care! Releasing this so-called revolutionary HD line without proper R&D only to find after being on the market they screwed up on the CPU to release a proper model so soon that only addresses THEIR INCOMPETENT SCREW-UP with is a big F.U. to all that spent $699 for our HD and now it's devalued and we are supposed to eat that loss and pay again for the privilege of Line 6 fixing their design flaw? HELL NO!

 

All the shouting about how wonderful the HD is and honestly, I find many sounds muddy and am sick of the CPU OVERLOAD. SO WHAT if it supposedly feels more organic like a real amp? My original POD Pro 2.0 never got a single complaint on any of the recordings I used it on. I skipped the XT but thought the X3 was wonderful.

 

If enough of us make noise on this we original HD buyers will have to be placated. 

 

De Allen


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#2 Buckethead85

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 12:21 PM

I'm a pod hd500 buyer and i have to agree with you. I've been a line6 supporter since pod xt live came out and i bought all the expasion packs, i was always happy with line6 until now, honestly i really didn't like that pod hd500x move and in general the way they managed the pod hd500 upgrades. I hope the 2.2 firmware is not the last because it is really useless for most of the pod hd500 owners.I quote entirely "as they no longer have the integrity they did in the beginning".
I hope they will do something for us because i have your same idea of not buying more line6 product again (and for doing something i don't mean new hd models, i really don't care, i want the present amps improved, a global eq, fixing the eq % with a graphic eq like on gearbox of pod xt live, a clip meter, using dual cab without dual amp). Nobody is asking for gigantic updates, it cannot be a trasformed new unit, but i would like it be an improved one.

p.s.: sorry for my english
 


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#3 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 01:40 PM

Wait a minute.  It was different when you could plug in a chip.  The HD500X is much different than the HD500.  They would have to take back the whole unit.  Not likely.  The 500 was out quite a while before the 500X came out so I do not see where you think they should just give you an upgrade.  Sell your 500 and buy a 500X if you want the upgraded features!


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#4 arislaf

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 01:42 PM

Much different?20% more power, different style footswitches.That's all.Meaning, no different at all, it could be possible to get the chip only.


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#5 hurghanico

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 01:44 PM

Unlike the HD series, in the case of POD 1 and 2, the only way to update the firmware was changing the EPROM chip that contained it, and fortunately was just inserted into the motherboard and not soldered ..

has never been offered an upgrade of the CPU, which most likely, between the material cost and the cost of the professional installation required, would give a total that would not make much sense ..

 

probably you don't even have the problem to buy or not another new Line6 product in future, since most probably the next one will be labeled Yamaha


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#6 chuskey

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 02:21 PM

I have been a Line 6 user from the beginning as well, starting with the AX212.  Including buying the upgrade chip for that amp when it came out.  With installation I believe it was around $90.  

 

I'm really not sure why you're so upset about the new X update.

 

The HD500 launched in 2010 and after 3 years they did a slight hardware refresh.  Why is this a big FU to the customer?  To give an example from another industry Apple does this every year.  Especially in the odd years (4 got updated to 4s, 5 got updated to 5s).  They don't give out free iPhone upgrades. 

 

To me it seems like the issue you're most upset about is that the original HD series didn't have enough CPU to really take advantage of all the software would do.  I can certainly relate to that frustration.  I had hopes of building some cool dual amp patches and quickly realized that wasn't realistic unless you didn't need effects as well.  Coming from the Vetta II I was surprised at this, and disappointed.

 

However I was aware of the issue before I bought it from reading reviews and I knew what I was getting into.  Still able to get killer tones, just had to make adjustments to suit the DSP limits.  

 

Again, these units were launched in 2010 and these DSP issues have been well documented to anyone researching them online.  Except for the very early adopters this shouldn't have blindsided anyone.  You know what you are getting.  If hitting this DSP limit was a deal breaker then go with another unit. 

 

I also had the X3 series, as well as the XT, and I'll take the DSP limits in exchange for the new amp modelling and especially the routing flexibility any day of the week.  That's my personal preference.  If the tones and lack of DSP issues were more important to me I would have just stayed with the X3.

 

So to sum up I don't see how bringing out a more powerful CPU and slightly updated hardware 3 years after the launch of the original is fixing their screw up "so soon" after the 1st gen HD500 launch.  To me 3 years in the technology world is a LONG time to have a product out there. 

 

Furthermore there have been several firmware updates that have been released along the way that have improved the sound and functionality quite a bit from the first release.  All of which were free, unlike the chip upgrade I did with my AX212.  

 

If anything I was ticked that the new release of the HD500X was such an incremental upgrade.  I was hoping for a substantial next gen product to put them closer to competing the AXE-FX and Kempers of the world.  

 

But they did listen to the user base and fix some of the most complained about features (low CPU and bad footswitches) with the new model and it stays at the same price point as before.  Can't really make out how that's screwing the customer.   


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#7 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 02:44 PM

The only problem I see relating to this issue is unnecessary  marketing hype. 20% CPU or EXRA DSP  isn't even worth the hassle.  I can certainly understand the frustration, but if you think about it, this update was due to line 6 not being able to get the same Chip from their supplier. I honestly don/t feel that I'm missing on anything. I agree that line 6 sometimes  shoot themselves in the foot by over hyping their products.

 

The HD line is really good regardless, but the HD X upgrade shouldn't have been over hyped. Still this is a truly phenomenal product and listening to what people are recording and getting with this  series makes it very clear that it's definitely a product that will stand on its own without the need for hype.. The line that line 6  has to draw on exaggerating and hyping their own products should be watched very carefully,  as it backfires and this thread is a prime example.  Good products with honest marketing will stand on their own and sell without all the unneeded fat and the HD doesn't need the hype. 

 

In summary, "don't believe the hype" :D . If you have followed line 6 pre announcement for their recent speakers and mixers, you will know what I'm talking about. They're very good products also but the buildup of expectations was unreal;  the whole music industry was going to change with their release, according to the pre announcement. Imagine the laughs many had when it turns out that it was going to be some speakers and mixers.

I started to think that line 6 marketing is paying homage to WWE (wrestling federation or something similar).

 

Line 6: You make great products, don't over hype them, it's not cool. The HD  X, isn't a new product.


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#8 TheRealZap

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 02:51 PM

the reason you didnt see "cpu overload" is because the previous pods had restrictions in place that wouldn't allow you to overload the cpu....

now with the HD and HDx models you can do whatever you want without restrictions up to the capabilities of the hardware...

 

and you can do so with higher resolution models...

sorry... to me it simply sounds like this is not the device for you... either HD or HDx, you need one of the older "nanny enabled" devices.


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#9 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 06:22 PM

I think the 500X is a significant upgrade.  Faster CPU better footswitches.  The flexibility and modeling are very good - you can do just about anything with it.  Would I upgrade if I already had a 500?  Probably.


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#10 toneman2121

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 07:21 PM

excellent post


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#11 Inerzia

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 08:13 PM

I have a 500, and I've been thinking about upgrading since I discovered the DSP limit, which occured no more than 20 minutes after I first plugged it.
It wasn't necessary to go al Fripp on it to reach the limit.
I felt p¡ssed. I had just gotten a new piece of great sounding hardware that was designed not to live up to its own possibilities.
I would have expected that limitation on a personal computer, not on a digital guitar processor. First time I had heard of such a thing.
I've been getting great tones out of it anyway, but still I wish I could freely use the eight slots. Without compromises.

What I surely won't do is buying another half cooked version of the same thing. A new, "upgraded" HD500 that just adds 20% more power and it's still not able to reach full potential? If you think about it as a new, sligthly improved version of the same product with a different processor because the manufacturer ran out of the old ones it's understandable, but if you think of it as an upgrade, it's ridiculous. I consider it more of a hardware update.

I'm getting a G-Major 2 to go in the FX-Loop of my 500, and that will give me filter, compressor, 3 band parametric eq, pitch, mod, delay and reverb available at any time. That will be my upgrade, and, unless L6 significantly improves the modeling, I'm gonna stick with it for quite some time (and I mean years)


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#12 GTLazer

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:20 AM

Interesting that you mention the G-Major; I've been thinking about getting a G-System and only using my HD500 for amps and drive (which I think it's really rather good at).

 

As for the OP, though, you shouldn't buy a product unless you're happy with it at the time of purchase. The HD500 does everything I expected it to at time of purchase and I've had a couple of free extras along the way as well. Bonus.

 

I've got exactly the same complaints as everyone else (global EQ, dual cabs, EQ not in Hz), but, given that I'm considering spending about £900 on a G-System, I could fix all of those things by selling the HD500 and getting an Axe-FX 2 (or possibly a Kemper) instead of the G. It's a decision I'm yet to make, but I certainly don't expect Line 6 to start throwing free stuff at me for moaning about something about which I was not misinformed in the first place.


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#13 Buckethead85

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:41 AM

You are right GTLazer, but when everyone bought the pod hd500, didn't they expect at least these minor fixes? I mean in 3 years they could have fix at least the stupid % eq issue? I bought this unit because i was expecting some sort of improving through the years, and i don't mean big changing, just these minor fixes.
They simply did a mistake, with dual amp you run out of dsp pretty quick and you cannot use the fx that you want. 20% dsp more and light on footswitch, I don't get that marketing move, that's all.


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#14 gunpointmetal

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 06:34 AM

The original HD500 shouldn't have been so embarrassingly underpowered when it came out....if you advertise 8 effects slots, people should be able to use all 8 filled with Octoverb if they want, as well as running Dual Full Amps with mics and cabs....then it would do what they said it would in marketing (if you read the manual before it came out, you might have had a leg up knowing about the DSP). They could have at least offered some sort of steep discount for an upgrade...trade in the 500 and $100 for the 500X.....I hate COSM modeling, but if Boss says you get two amp paths and up to ten effects, you'll be able to use two amps and ten effects.


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#15 phil_m

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:05 AM

You can't run 8 Octo Verbs and dual amps on the X series, either... Who would want to do that, anyways? I think the thing is Line 6 knew that some people would be upset, but they offered the flexibility anyway. I remember hearing that there was at least one person on the original design team that didn't want to offer the dual amp option at all, but in the end, the team decided to at least give people the option even if it it meant that people would be more limited in their effect choices.

 

The way I see it, it's pretty useless to rail against that sort of thing. It is the way it is, and you either like it or you don't. The processor speed in the HD500 and HD500X isn't something that's going to be changed in an update. The fact of the matter is that it's still a pretty powerful processor for a $500 device. I look at this way. The M13 still sells for the same price (it was briefly on sale before Christmas, but I think it's back up now). It's processor is slower than the HD500, and it doesn't do any amp modeling. It really just all depends on your perspective. Anything you buy for $500 is going to have some limitations. If it's a tech-based device, there's a good chance the same money will get you a lot more in a few years. That's how it goes. The laptop I bought 3 years ago isn't worth anything now, as far as resale is concerned. It doesn't make me regret purchasing it, though.


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#16 hurghanico

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:15 AM

personally I don't feel disappointed with this product and even less from Line6 in general ..

I think what they were able to give us in terms of quality/price is unbeatable, and has allowed many people to have access to sounds for which they would otherwise have had to pay much more than that, and probably could not even afford it .. and this is only one of the great merits of the Line6 ..

given the recent news, perhaps because even the general crisis, it seems to me quite probable that this company needs help to survive and continue
possibly to produce new products with the best quality/price ratio... and perhaps for the same reason lately they have not had many resources to offer many additional updates, which could be free for you but obviously have still a cost for the company..

 

surely this particular product is not 100% perfect, but as it is, offers a lot of possibilities in terms of quality sounds obtainable, and having the patience to learn to use it at its best, can give a lot of satisfaction even without the 20% more power of the X version..

 

to be frank I too don't like particulary the eq parameters in percentages, but do you really think that could be a determinant factor to get a good sound?

 

just my 2 cents..


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#17 DeAllen

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:17 AM

Well, as presumed, some feel my frustration and others are good soldiers backstopping Line 6.....possibly Line 6 employees? Not like other company run user boards don't seed them with their own people. This whole post will disappear probably by end of week if not end of day courtesy of Line 6.

 

People defend that this has been out 3 years....how long was the X3 out before the HD? Longer than 3 years! Their excuse for the hype on the HD is that the X3 was just a big collection of their old technology patches and the HD was redesigned modeling from the ground up combined with their higher end effects.

 

The HD-X is simply the HD with more processing power......dealing with a design flaw of the HD. What is the point of offering 8 effects and dual amps when the processor can't do it? It's like offering a new sports car that can do 200 mph yet at 80 the body starts falling apart and the steering is unmanageable.

 

Line 6 used to be a people's company. Unlike what Digitech and others had become I was impressed, not only with the groundbreaking Line 6 accomplished in direct guitar amp simulation but also their integrity. There IS NO INTEGRITY in offering the same product with nothing new other than a processor that might actually deliver what the original product promised so people have to choose between being stuck with the first version that didn't live up to the promised features or taking a loss and paying out another $699 for the corrected version in the HDX.

 

People can spin the whole HDX all they want but I'm dumping my HD's and sticking with the X3 till I can afford an FX II. I'm seriously disappointed in the handling of this. The X3 Pro was/is solid and did what Line 6 claimed it would and was their flagship for years. Someone claimed there is a guvnor or some other built in default that stops a user from ever overloading the CPU. I don't know if that is or isn't true but it sounds like an excuse otherwise why didn't they do same in the HD?

 

The amp models...be it the choices are less....do sound better in the HD but do they make the X3 models sound like garbage? Live (which I don't use my Line 6 as) do people find the X3 floorboards so inferior to the HD?

De Allen


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#18 phil_m

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:23 AM

No one will delete this post, and no one who's commented here is a Line 6 employee. There are occasional posts by Line 6 employees here, but those people all have "Line6" in their username, and they have the Line 6 logo under their avatar (as opposed to the "Line 6 Expert" icon underneath our name).

 

http://line6.com/sup...d-technica-r147


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#19 arislaf

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:50 AM

I love my pod, but I completely agree about the hype...These are lies... and is also missing the big fat one, <<as your heart's desires>>...

This was everywhere when the HD500 came out, at the very beginning...

 

 

Built like a tank
POD HD500's cutting-edge technology is kept safe within a "bulletproof" bent sheet metal housing with heavy-duty metal footswitches and expression pedal. No injection-molded plastic boxes here—POD HD500 is ready to lap up years of road and stage abuse and keep you playing.

 

The engineer's behind POD HD500 made it easy to access its deep programmability. Smart FX make it a snap to quickly dial in your tone, and the free, easy-to-use editor/librarian software supports your deepest, darkest tonal explorations. POD HD500 was designed by guitarists for guitarists.

 

Made famous by Line 6 M13 and M9 Stompbox Modelers, M-class FX have found their way into the hearts of many musicians. POD HD500 features a whopping 100+ M-class effects to craft your sound. With this wide tonal palette to play with, you can sound like anyone under the sun, or no one but you. You can also use up to 8 FX at once.

 

Full: http://www.chicagomu...ects-processor/


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#20 phil_m

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 07:56 AM

So what about any of that is lying?


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#21 arislaf

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:05 AM

The underline and black ones.If the footswitches were so good they wouldn't improve it on 500X.Quickly dial your tone after spending hours reading meambobo's guide and gckeloch notes, and the best one: trial snd error (forgive me if I spell the names wrong).8 effects at once? use dual amp and if more than 5 can be used, let me know...After all, isn't this the reason that the 500X came out? Where is the truth is the question...


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#22 TheRealZap

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:14 AM

first, let me be clear and obvious... you're never going to get a free upgrade to an entirely different hardware platform... software improvements perhaps...

 

limit yourself to a single amp and you can probably use anything you want (probably... as in i aint testing it for you)

CHOOSE to use dual amps etc... and you are limiting yourself.

you have options.

those options include adding pedals in the loop etc if that suits you....

the device does what it does... 

the "x" version is so very modestly improved in processing capability that in my opinion the only real reason to upgrade is if you desire the improved footswitches.

 

sure the marketing may have been aggressive and hyped... but that's what marketing does...

if you're unhappy with the 500... upgrading to a 500x will not make you happy...

if you're overall happy with the 500, then you'd be modestly pleased with the meager benefits\improvements of the 500x.

 

doesn't sounds like the original poster is all that happy with his 500...

the conclusion here is obvious... but i'll let you all draw their own.


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#23 hurghanico

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:15 AM

61fecdffjw1eadhonflurg20b408cnpd.gif

 

The trick is to enjoy life

and sometimes you have to make the most of what you have


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#24 arislaf

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:31 AM

first, let me be clear and obvious... you're never going to get a free upgrade to an entirely different hardware platform... software improvements perhaps... TRUE

 

limit yourself to a single amp and you can probably use anything you want (probably... as in i aint testing it for you) TRUE

CHOOSE to use dual amps etc... and you are limiting yourself. TRUE BUT NOT USER FAULT

you have options.

those options include adding pedals in the loop etc if that suits you....

the device does what it does... 

the "x" version is so very modestly improved in processing capability that in my opinion the only real reason to upgrade is if you desire the improved footswitches.TRUE

 

sure the marketing may have been aggressive and hyped... but that's what marketing does... TRUE

if you're unhappy with the 500... upgrading to a 500x will not make you happy...

if you're overall happy with the 500, then you'd be modestly pleased with the meager benefits\improvements of the 500x.

 

doesn't sounds like the original poster is all that happy with his 500...

the conclusion here is obvious... but i'll let you all draw their own.

 

I really enjoy your post and your perspective, found it really realistic.Maybe you should go to the marketing department? (no sarcasm)

 

From my side I do enjoy my HD500 and there is no reason I should change it yet. My P.O.V. is only the marketing lies..


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#25 toneman2121

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 08:45 AM

all youse just lollipop too much


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#26 phil_m

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:13 AM

I really enjoy your post and your perspective, found it really realistic.Maybe you should go to the marketing department? (no sarcasm)

 

From my side I do enjoy my HD500 and there is no reason I should change it yet. My P.O.V. is only the marketing lies..

 

 

I think you'd have to read all those statements very literally to say they're lies, but even they aren't lies. 
 

 

 heavy-duty metal footswitches

 

 

"Heavy-duty" is a term like "natural"... It has no defined meaning. People can say it about just anything.

 

quickly dial in your tone,

 

 

Again, completely subjective. I have dialed in tones quickly. I posted a tune up here yesterday. It literally took me about about a minute to get that tone.

 

 

You can also use up to 8 FX at once.

 

The most important words here are "up to". I have plenty of tones where I do have all effects slots filled. There are some where I can't because of the DSP limit.

 

Not trying to just be a fanboy here, but if you're going to accuse Line 6 of lying, the evidence needs to back you up. It simply doesn't. If you don't like the way it was marketed, that's fine. Just don't go saying something that isn't true.


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#27 phil_m

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 09:34 AM

As a side note, this whole conversation regarding marketing speak reminds me of this:

 

 

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, do these sound like the actions of a man who's had ALL he could eat?"


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#28 arislaf

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:06 AM

Sorry phil, but this is really a fanboy action.I gave evidence and you are trying to save what?the lies? i don't even know why you are doing this, pretending you don't understand and always trying to save line6 proving everybody against is wrong...But I guess the previous expert banned because he was speaking the truth (MerlinFL) and not only praising line6.

 

On topic, there are evidence and there are users...


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#29 arislaf

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:10 AM

In any case, arguing between us will not change my p.o.v. or yours, either the marketing lies.What is the unit, it will be, I simply hope for a more realistic preview on the next one.


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#30 phil_m

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:15 AM

i don't even know why you are doing this, pretending you don't understand and always trying to save line6 proving everybody against is wrong...But I guess the previous expert banned because he was speaking the truth (MerlinFL) and not only praising line6.

 

I understand criticism and even disappointment. But reading a marketing spec sheet as literally as a legal document, I simply don't understand. If you're going to complain about the way Line 6 markets, you should rightly complain about everyone else. It's just the way advertising is done. It's not lying. It's simply not. It's trying to portray the product in the best light possible. If that bothers you, well, then it does. But you can't blame Line 6 for doing what essentially all of its competitors are doing. Personally, I think Line 6 is actually a bit more subdued than some of its competitors, but that's just me.

 

As far as "he who shall not be named", he really went far beyond criticizing the products or the company. He was engaging in personal attacks. That's pretty much the one thing that won't be tolerated here.


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#31 TheRealZap

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:35 AM

He didn't speak much truth... just alot of opinion... every time the truth was presented, and he didn't like it...

we'd get a 3 mile long post filled with personal attacks...

 

But I guess the previous expert banned because he was speaking the truth (MerlinFL) and not only praising line6.

 

 

he was also only an expert at declaring himself an expert....

 

As far as "he who shall not be named", he really went far beyond criticizing the products or the company. He was engaging in personal attacks. That's pretty much the one thing that won't be tolerated here.


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#32 gunpointmetal

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 10:56 AM

who cares who wants to run 8 octoverbs.....if someone does, they should be able to, even with two amps running, otherwise what you have is "Ten Available Slots that can contain a total of 8 effects and two amps, but not at the same time" which isn't how it was advertised. I really like my 500, I get (what I feel are) excellent tones, people ask me about my gear, and I don't see a need to change at the moment (the EQ's are annoying as fVck though) but, I did feel a little cheated after having it home for a few weeks and getting past my performance patches, which are DSP-light, and trying to build some synthy, spacey tones and hitting the DSP wall constantly with sometimes only 4-5 slots filled and only one amp. You don't buy a four slot toaster and then keep it if you can only use three at a time, right? The EQs are a DISASTER....I repeat...A DISASTER in UI and if I were line 6 I would at least apologize for not fixing it even if they never plan to. I don't expect things for free aside from firmware updates, as I feel they are the equivalent of Service Packs for an OS and should be free through the life of the software.


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#33 stumblinman

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 12:10 PM

I used to have a Variax 700. I think they should give me a JTV.
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#34 gunpointmetal

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 01:48 PM

pointless argument.....if you're Variax contained 8 models (no idea, never used or owned one, just an arbitrary number), but if you picked too many with humbuckers, you only got five or six, then I could see your point.


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#35 TheRealZap

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 02:04 PM

i don't understand why people don't "get it"

 

you get MORE options with the pod HD

they could have made it so you never saw the DSP limit...

 

by lowering the quality of effects

or

limiting what you could put in each slot

or

being strict about the effects chain like the XT or X3

or

other means... etc

 

the only compromise they made was to let you make the compromises... rather than pre-determining those compromises for you and restricting your ability.

 

you computer can only do limited things before performance is affected....

the pods are the same... only difference is you can't let performance be affected... because audio burps, glitches, latency etc... would render the device useless.

 

you have to draw the line somewhere... and if you prefer those things done for you ala XT/X3 then that's an option for you.... 

 

in fact they did exactly this with the pods hd300 and hd400...

nobody was buying them... 

 

 

pointless argument.....if you're Variax contained 8 models (no idea, never used or owned one, just an arbitrary number), but if you picked too many with humbuckers, you only got five or six, then I could see your point.


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#36 gunpointmetal

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 02:24 PM

I think everyone understands dynamic DSP at this point....the issue is the device was advertised as "Dual signal chain with up to 8 effects". It wasn't advertised as "Dual Signal Chain with up to 8 Effects unless you picked some that use more processor, then it might be single chain and 6 effects, unless you picked an amp that uses more processor, then maybe only 4 or 5 effects, oh yeah, and if you're using full models, you're gonna have to compromise on the reverb......"

 

Are you able to see the difference there?

 

That's what people are bothered by here.

 

I understand that a computer can use all of its available to a fault, because it is tasked with multiple purposes at any given time. the PODs are dedicated devices with only one job, audio processing. To be what it was advertised to be, someone should be able to fire up to full Angel models with condensers on the cabs and turn on 8 f**king octoverbs or harmonizers, or pitch shifters or whatever and it should do it.

 

Otherwise its not really as advertised.

 

Nobody was buying the 300 and 400 because the price point was close enough to the 500 and the routing was so vastly different. If the 300 came out at $150, you would have seen a lot of them selling. Instead it was $299 or something.


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#37 phil_m

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 02:28 PM

I think everyone understands dynamic DSP at this point....the issue is the device was advertised as "Dual signal chain with up to 8 effects". It wasn't advertised as "Dual Signal Chain with up to 8 Effects unless you picked some that use more processor, then it might be single chain and 6 effects, unless you picked an amp that uses more processor, then maybe only 4 or 5 effects, oh yeah, and if you're using full models, you're gonna have to compromise on the reverb......"

 

Are you able to see the difference there?

 

That's what people are bothered by here.

 

But you're making Line 6 say something they weren't saying. I'm sure it's for this very reason that Line 6 used the words "up to" in the ad copy.  If they flat out said dual signal chain with 8 effects at, you'd have a good point. The fact is that they at least allude to the fact that there may be some limitation.


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#38 joel_brown

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 03:43 PM

Even the Fractal AXEII has DSP limits with their high def amp models.  Just read their forums and see the people complain about it.  Now if I spent $2800 bucks and got a DSP limit reached, I'd be real unhappy. 

 

I can understand people being unhappy with the X series coming out after buying the regular PODHD.  I wish there was a way to upgrade the DSP chip but there isn't.  So what's Line6 supposed to do ?  Stop making the PODHD because they can't get the old DSP chip anymore ?  No, they put the new chip in that is a little bit faster and the marketing people did their job to sell it.

 

You can get upset and sell your PODHD and go back to the X3 and say "I'll show them".  Let me know how that works out.  I'll stay with my PODHD and be happy that I have something really nice for a very good price.  When something comes out that's better for a reasonable price I'll buy it, no matter who makes it.

 

And if that doesn't let me put in anyting I want in every slot, well atleast I have the flexibility to try anything I want.


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#39 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:03 PM

DSP hardware evolves with time.  Line6 used what was available at the time when they developed the HD500.  Now you get more horsepower in the same DSP - probably higher clock speed.  The 500 uses surface mount technology - you cannot replace the DSP for a reasonable turn around cost.  I like the tradeoffs they made in the 500 at the time.  You get to use the DSP processing power the way you want with some limitations.  If you need the 20% more power, sell your 500 and buy a 500X.  It's that simple.


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#40 silverhead

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:18 PM

I think there are three separate issues being discussed here:

 

1) What sort of 'upgrades' one should expect to receive during a product's lifecycle, and whether they should be free or not. The OP feels that Line 6 should provide a hardware upgrade to turn the HD500 into an HD500x, either free or low cost. The extreme end of that spectrum of opinion is well expressed by stumblinman, who (jokingly, I'm sure) suggests that Variax 700 owners, even ex-owners - should receive a free or low cost 'upgrade' to a JTV. No matter where you are on that spectrum, it is what it is: line 6 is not offering that upgrade nor are they going to. Feel free to vent.

 

2) The fact that every computer has capacity limitations. For guitar processors it is largely DSP capacity. Every such device, from the Pocket Pod to the AXE FXII, has these limitations. The issue is whether the devices are designed to prevent these limitations from ever being reached (the HD300/400, AXE FXII, and all other such devices that I have heard of) or are designed to put the user in charge, allowing the user to fully utilize all available DSP in every preset, meaning the DSP-nanny has to intervene when necessary. Line 6, with the Pod dual-path processors, broke new ground (I think) in being the first to design things this way. Like it or not, that's the design. And those who don't like it have an option - you can still get the Pod HD modeling and a guarantee of not reaching the DSP limitations by buying the HD300/400.

 

3) The fact that Line 6, like virtually all manufacturers in any product sector, can be accused of overstating things in their marketing ads. For instance, in the case of the Pod HD DSP limitations it seems to boil down to personal feelings and opinions about how to interpret the two words 'up to' relating to the number of FX that can be used in a preset.

 

My opinions?

 

1) Free firmware upgrades are now so common with L6 products that it is reasonable to expect them early in a product's lifecycle. But still they are a bonus, and one should never buy a product that one is dissatisfied with, expecting a future firmware upgrade to make them happy. Hardware upgrades? Only in cases where the initial product hardware is clearly defective (e.g. X3 USB audio dropout problem). Neither the incremental DSP increase nor the sturdier footswitches in the HD500x fall into this category (again - my opinion).

 

2) I love the fact that Line 6 allows me to make use of all available DSP, and no longer forces me to buy products that make those decisions for me (like all previous PODs and the FX1, FX2, and FX3 design of the HD300/400). I can actually reach the limits - that's great, because it allows me to make my own compromises on a pre-preset basis. I can't do that with the AXE FXII. Yes, I know it has more DSP capacity than the Pod HD - that's part of its price tag - but I can never use it all in any preset. The design prevents me.

 

3) Marketing is marketing. Expect the hype, in all products everywhere. Expect that things are presented using words such as 'up to' that, while strictly accurate, could be interpreted as meaning something else that exceeds reality. Line 6 is no worse than anyone else in this regard.


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