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Line 6 Should Offer Low Cost/free Upgrade From Hd To Hd-x


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#41 cbrown1334

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 04:23 PM

I posted this in a similar thread over on the IdeaScale website:

 

Not to be a downer, but you might want to Google "surface mount technology". The Sharc processor in the HD 500 is a 208 pin LQFP surface mount chip. These are almost impossible to replace by hand. To mount them, during manufacture, a solder paste is printed to the circuit board pads, then the chip (and everything else) is glued to the board. The whole thing is then run through an oven (or hot gas convection, etc). Everything is soldered on at once. It is great for fast, highly automated robotic production. It sucks for changing out a component. Note that this particular chip has 208 leads all .5mm apart (see here: http://www.analog.co...W)/SW_208_1.pdf). Even with a brand new chip and new main board very very few people could solder this by hand. Just look at all the YouTube videos of guys that wrecked their iPhone trying to change out the battery (with 4 leads a couple of millimeters apart).

It's not impossible to do by hand - but I don't think you could find someone to do it for less money than the whole HD 500X costs. Generally, with surface mount chips, you only get one chance to solder something on. If you have to remove the old chip it is very likely to destroy the pads on the main board. I think that is why the main board is replaced for most problems with a POD. In my experience, the repair centers won't even try to replace a component. Try finding someone to replace a soldered on CPU in a modern laptop. Same problem. I hope I'm wrong, though, and Line 6 figures out a way to do it...

 

This thread has migrated a bit - but thought it might be useful to add to this discussion.

 

Chris


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#42 arislaf

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 05:48 PM

I think everyone understands dynamic DSP at this point....the issue is the device was advertised as "Dual signal chain with up to 8 effects". It wasn't advertised as "Dual Signal Chain with up to 8 Effects unless you picked some that use more processor, then it might be single chain and 6 effects, unless you picked an amp that uses more processor, then maybe only 4 or 5 effects, oh yeah, and if you're using full models, you're gonna have to compromise on the reverb......"

 

Are you able to see the difference there?

 

That's what people are bothered by here.

 

I understand that a computer can use all of its available to a fault, because it is tasked with multiple purposes at any given time. the PODs are dedicated devices with only one job, audio processing. To be what it was advertised to be, someone should be able to fire up to full Angel models with condensers on the cabs and turn on 8 f**king octoverbs or harmonizers, or pitch shifters or whatever and it should do it.

 

Otherwise its not really as advertised.

 

Nobody was buying the 300 and 400 because the price point was close enough to the 500 and the routing was so vastly different. If the 300 came out at $150, you would have seen a lot of them selling. Instead it was $299 or something.

Can't say better


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#43 DeAllen

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:07 AM

I understand criticism and even disappointment. But reading a marketing spec sheet as literally as a legal document, I simply don't understand. If you're going to complain about the way Line 6 markets, you should rightly complain about everyone else. It's just the way advertising is done. It's not lying. It's simply not. It's trying to portray the product in the best light possible. If that bothers you, well, then it does. But you can't blame Line 6 for doing what essentially all of its competitors are doing. Personally, I think Line 6 is actually a bit more subdued than some of its competitors, but that's just me.

 

As far as "he who shall not be named", he really went far beyond criticizing the products or the company. He was engaging in personal attacks. That's pretty much the one thing that won't be tolerated here.

 

When a company claims a product will do A, B and C and said product freezes or fails due to lack of power within that product it is lying, fraud, dishonest and legally actionable! You buy a car that is advertised with 5 airbags and in a serious accident where all should deploy only 2 do because the battery lacks the juice it is fraud. 

 

If the POD HD doesn't do what it was advertised to will lives be lost? Of course not. I'm just trying to make a point that if I buy a product that claims to do something and it doesn't then I didn't get what I paid for. Then for Line 6 to release the same product (screw the switches because I'm using the POD HD Pro---bought 2 actually one for travel, one in my studio rack) with the proper CPU size so it will do what they claimed the first would I feel the moral responsibility is to take care of those who have trusted the company and bought the misrepresented one with the new CPU.

 

People can babble on about "aggressive marketing" and paint me to be unreasonable but wrong is wrong. Of course Line 6, their followers that either work for or have other inside connections to be compensated will defend the company and screw someone like ME who is simply speaking out rightfully.....doesn't matter because Line 6 now is about screwing their consumers like Digitech, Rocktron and others. Bravo! What a business plan....release this so-called revolutionary new product that lacks the juice to do what it claims only to re-release the same unit WITH the power to do what the first was supposed to so fools take a loss on the first and pay $699 to get what they thought they were paying for the first time! From a company spreadsheet it's perfect but from the consumer's view...especially in our economic climate....it's reprehensible.

 

 

De Allen


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#44 TheRealZap

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:16 AM

your argument is invalid... because it doesn't list any concrete claims that you state...

that and the x model that you supposedly want for free, does not substantially change the capabilities...

anyway... be mad if you must...

the world is full of entitled people... you're not alone.

 

When a company claims a product will do A, B and C and said product freezes or fails due to lack of power within that product it is lying, fraud, dishonest and legally actionable! You buy a car that is advertised with 5 airbags and in a serious accident where all should deploy only 2 do because the battery lacks the juice it is fraud. 

 

If the POD HD doesn't do what it was advertised to will lives be lost? Of course not. I'm just trying to make a point that if I buy a product that claims to do something and it doesn't then I didn't get what I paid for. Then for Line 6 to release the same product (screw the switches because I'm using the POD HD Pro---bought 2 actually one for travel, one in my studio rack) with the proper CPU size so it will do what they claimed the first would I feel the moral responsibility is to take care of those who have trusted the company and bought the misrepresented one with the new CPU.

 

People can babble on about "aggressive marketing" and paint me to be unreasonable but wrong is wrong. Of course Line 6, their followers that either work for or have other inside connections to be compensated will defend the company and screw someone like ME who is simply speaking out rightfully.....doesn't matter because Line 6 now is about screwing their consumers like Digitech, Rocktron and others. Bravo! What a business plan....release this so-called revolutionary new product that lacks the juice to do what it claims only to re-release the same unit WITH the power to do what the first was supposed to so fools take a loss on the first and pay $699 to get what they thought they were paying for the first time! From a company spreadsheet it's perfect but from the consumer's view...especially in our economic climate....it's reprehensible.

 

 

De Allen


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#45 joel_brown

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:22 AM

DeAllen bought two of them.  I guess he deserves to be twice as mad.  

 

Show us something better for under $700 bucks.  As I posted before, even the AXE FXII has DSP limit issues.  The new DSP in the X series, at best, might get you one more effect, if you're lucky.  So it doesn't fix what you're asking to have fixed.


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#46 Mr_Arkadin

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:39 AM

When a company claims a product will do A, B and C and said product freezes or fails due to lack of power within that product it is lying, fraud, dishonest and legally actionable! You buy a car that is advertised with 5 airbags and in a serious accident where all should deploy only 2 do because the battery lacks the juice it is fraud. 

 

 

I think you're getting a bit ridiculous with this analogy. Please feel free to take Line 6 to court. I think any lawyer will read the marketing blurb and tell you you don't have a leg to stand on. Which bit of 'up to' aren't people getting?

 

I assume at some point you thought the HD Pro was good enough as it was seeing as you bought two. If you thought they were underpowered when you bought them why didn't you return them at the time? It obviously didn't do what was advertised (in your view) from the get go, yet you've only just noticed now that the 'x' has come out.


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#47 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:52 AM

If the POD HD doesn't do what it was advertised to will lives be lost? Of course not. I'm just trying to make a point that if I buy a product that claims to do something and it doesn't then I didn't get what I paid for. Then for Line 6 to release the same product (screw the switches because I'm using the POD HD Pro---bought 2 actually one for travel, one in my studio rack) with the proper CPU size so it will do what they claimed the first would I feel the moral responsibility is to take care of those who have trusted the company and bought the misrepresented one with the new CPU.

 

I can understand some amount of frustration. I get it to a point. But, really, I  don't think the reason Line 6 release the X version of the HD Pro had anything to do with them thinking the first version was "underpowered". From what I understand, the chip they were using for the original version was being discontinued and replaced with a newer, faster chip for the same price. So I guess they did what they considered to be the least intrusive thing - they simply plopped the new chip into the existing design. The thing is your two HD Pros still outperform a single HD Pro X by quite a significant amount (assuming, of course, that you could use them both in tandem at the same time).


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#48 arislaf

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 08:21 AM

De Allen I am with you on this one.The device is awesome but doesn't do what it was advertised to do.You can't beat anybody here that oppose you, we can feel cheated or mistreated, but that will not change anything.This is the world we live, right or wrong.


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#49 stumblinman

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 09:40 AM

I guess I haven't read enough marketing materials from Line 6. Can someone point me to an ad that states "Dual amps and 8 effects simultaneously"? Because that seems to be the crux. If there is an ad that states that, then it is fraud. If not, then it's claims are likely true. I can use dual amps, and I can use up to 8 effects. Look like the Pod works as advertised to me.
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#50 arislaf

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:28 AM

I guess this can be used vice versa, nobody pointed me that I can use 8 low cost effects BUT WITHOUT dual amp.Nobody said that it has DSP limit on the advertise. 


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#51 TheRealZap

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:40 AM

Dear All, 

 

you do realize this device came out 3 years ago, and this forum has had this same subject since that time.

In all of twenty minutes in these forums you could have had the information available in which to make your informed purchasing decision.

In short, all of your complaints will hopefully be factored into the next generation Pod, but this generation simply is what it is.

Oh yeah... and be prepared to pay for that next generation pod, since it's not likely to just be an updated firmware.

 

Sincerely,

Reality.

xxoo


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#52 stumblinman

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:46 AM

Mcdonalds doesn't advertise their products will cause obesity or high blood pressure either. Why would they highlight the downside? I've knocked Line 6 for a lot of stupid decisions, but even I think it works fairly. But then again, I don't use dual amps since I can get what I want out of one.

Actually, aren't there a couple factory presets that have 8 effects and 2 amps? I'm not at home, so I can't verify. But I thought I'd come across one when I first got mine. I know I've seen screenshots of it.
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#53 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:48 AM

Actually, aren't there a couple factory presets that have 8 effects and 2 amps? I'm not at home, so I can't verify. But I thought I'd come across one when I first got mine. I know I've seen screenshots of it.

 

Yes, it's actually not too hard to build a preset with two amps and 8 effects, especially if you don't want to use reverb in your tone.


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#54 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:57 AM

The page that lists the feature comparison for the HD series has a bullet point that says "Up to 8 Simultaneous Effects"

 

There is no asterisk with a disclaimer, there is no mention of NOT being able to use 8 simultaneous effects.

 

Obviously no-one wants to waste the time and money to sue the company over it....we want them to look at what users are saying ( I think forum users should trump the users they never hear from when it comes to who to listen to) and be a company that helps musicians, not simply a vessel for cash to exchange hands. Hopefully, they will look at Ideascale (I still think its just supposed to pacify some people from sending repetive feature requests and avoid these discussions on the forums, cause I'm sure its not awesome for business), hopefully they will add the features everybody wants to the next gen. Right now, they could acknowledge that they really did drop the ball on a few aspects of the HD series. Maybe have a developer or two clarify some things on here....Like I said, I'm not expecting free hardware, and I've had my HD500 since the second month they were out. But the marketing is damn near a flat-out lie, and it really is misleading.


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#55 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:00 AM

You should be able to build that preset with ANY two amps and ANY 8 effects to have the device work as advertised.


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#56 arislaf

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:00 AM

Zap got everyone on his last post..Truth is it is a 3 years old device, and I have it from the very beginning.It will not change now.And I know that I will hapily pay for the next device if it will be better sounding-flexible. But you can not convince me that the advertise was honest.Or because everybody is doing it that tis is the correct.It is matter of morality,this i why me and DeAllen go so mad. Period.


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#57 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:03 AM

You should be able to build that preset with ANY two amps and ANY 8 effects to have the device work as advertised.

well-thats-just-like-your-opinion-man-gi

 

Zap is correct... This debate has been happening since 2010. My bet is that if the complaints haven't phased Line 6 yet, they simply aren't. But keep on chasing that red dot!

 

l_d66b2d20-b1d5-11e2-88fa-21bb27700016.j


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#58 chuskey

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:09 AM

I'm not aware of any of the major retailers that don't have a 30 day return policy.  Plenty of time to hit the DSP limit, decide it's a deal breaker, and return it for a refund.  That's assuming you didn't take time to read any of the forum posts talking about this issue before even buying it.  

 

What difference does the marketing hype make?  If you don't like something don't keep it.  As referenced many times in this thread the unit has been around for 3 years.  If they had lied and misrepresented the product in a morally reprehensible way they would have been chastised by now.

 

To balance this, yes I was dissapointed when I first got the unit and hit the DSP limit as quickly as I did when setting up dual amp patches.  My initial reaction was frustration.  After all, I had the Vetta with the floorboard and it never hit a DSP limit, and the technology was much older.  Oh yeah that's right I couldn't freely assign all the effects slots and the retail on that amp and floorboard was north of $2k... :rolleyes: 

 

The bottom line was the HD500 sounded good, even better now with the firmware updates, and gave me a lot of features for the money.  So I kept it.  By doing that I forfeited my right to complain.  Ultimately we vote with our dollars.  

 

And believe me I have NO formal connection with Line 6 or any "inside connections".  I have always paid for the gear I've bought from them, and with the exception of Guitar Center coupons, I have never gotten a discount. 

 

I think they make good products for the money.  They're not perfect and they have shortcomings.  However for the price point I think they have very good value.  


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#59 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:13 AM

how is it an opinion if that's what the specs list says?


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#60 arislaf

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:23 AM

if the complaints haven't phased Line 6 yet, they simply aren't. But keep on chasing that red dot!

 

I guess that this is the reason it is Yamaha6 nowdays :ph34r:  :ph34r:


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#61 TheRealZap

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:27 AM

it doesn't say that it WILL do this: 

 

You should be able to build that preset with ANY two amps and ANY 8 effects to have the device work as advertised.

 

anywhere in the marketing....

it says UP TO....

 

your opinion is that the device SHOULD work as quoted... (and that would indeed be awesome.... just happens to not be the case.... or be the claim)

 

clearly the device does not meet expectations...

it seems the expectations are wrong... not the marketing.

 

7042c3174ccc6b8119b4bbb6a99a55afff4446b4

 

how is it an opinion if that's what the specs list says?


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#62 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:33 AM

elf_gif13.gif


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#63 arislaf

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:34 AM

Awesome!! :D


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#64 silverhead

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:36 AM

This discussion reminds me of a philosophy professor I once had. I was taking his Logic course. He was a bit of a drinker and had sometimes simply not shown up for the early 8:30 Friday morning class, which really annoyed those of us who had hauled our little a$$e$ out of bed.

 

So one Wednesday I asked him: "Will there or will there not be a class on Friday?" He answered "Yes."  So I showed up - and he didn't. Remember - the course was logic. Only later did I realize that he had answered truthfully, though I misinterpreted his response and fully expected a class.


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#65 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:13 PM

correct me if I'm wrong, but "up to 8 simultaneous" means the same thing as "not more than 8 at a time" right?

 

So, does "not more than 8 at time" mean "about 8, but sometimes less"?

 

I'm not sure how I'm interpreting this wrong....do you see an asterisk next to that on the sheet?.....does the specifications comparison say that available effects are dependent on the type used?

 

 

Again, I like my HD500, I use it everyday, but to backup this nonsense as though there's no misinformation is just ignorant.


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#66 TheRealZap

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:19 PM

by design.. up to... is supposed to conjure images of the best case scenario... in order to sell you something. (marketing) not more than... would be more like a specification describing a limit... and won't likely entice you to by anything.

 

they are different, and perhaps nuanced to some degree... but there is a difference.

 

if they really meant that you could use all 8 for anything... they would have just said "8 effects slots." and omitted "up to" altogether.


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#67 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:25 PM

well, when I read that it says "You can build a patch with up to 8 effects" meaning that I can put 8 effects on a patch, but not 9 or 10.

 

It seems to me that you have to really want that to say what you're implying to read it that way. Had I never heard of a HD500 and read that, I would assume I could put 8 effects in my patches.....any of my patches.


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#68 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:33 PM

It seems to me that you have to really want that to say what you're implying to read it that way. Had I never heard of a HD500 and read that, I would assume I could put 8 effects in my patches.....any of my patches.

 

Well, obviously Line 6 is meaning it the way we're interpreting it, because that's the way it is... I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I don't see what the point of arguing about it anymore. That's just the way it is.

 

I can see how someone could interpret it differently, and obviously some did. But it's been on the market for over three years now, and they haven't been sued, so I'd assume it's legit and legal marketing. Can't people move on and find something new to complain about? Pretty please.


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#69 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:37 PM

nobody asked you to be here, or to comment...I enjoy a good back and forth, and obviously there are points on both sides. Are you just saying that cause you don't like seeing this thread on the list? Read other posts if you don't wanna talk about this issue.


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#70 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:49 PM

nobody asked you to be here, or to comment...I enjoy a good back and forth, and obviously there are points on both sides. Are you just saying that cause you don't like seeing this thread on the list? Read other posts if you don't wanna talk about this issue.

 

There's a difference between "a good back and forth" and beating a dead horse.

 

You can feel free to discuss this all you want, I suppose. I just don't see the purpose in it. Like I said, it's been over three years since the HD line was introduced, and the marketing doesn't seem to have hampered sales or caused too many people problems. I don't see a lot value in constantly complaining about something that you have literally no chance of changing.


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#71 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 12:56 PM

you mean like trying to get people to stop arguing on the internet? I get bored, people say stupid things, I respond...I don't care how dead the horse is....

 

I know as well as anyone arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...


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#72 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:00 PM

I know as well as anyone arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...

 

Well, OK, in that case you win... B)


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#73 arislaf

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:00 PM

Beating a dead horse for rational reasons.So that we or the next pod buyers will have a more honest advertise from line6.Lately it took the downfall with the marketing lies. Remember the stage source.Everybody expecting something dreamy, something really awesome and big that will bring a crazy innovation, and it was only speakers...


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#74 chuskey

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:02 PM

When you see an ad for a car that says "up to 30mpg" it's commonly assumed that under optimal conditions it will get 30mpg.  It doesn't mean that the car will never get less than 30mpg. 


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#75 TheRealZap

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:02 PM

but it is really awesome... and its a mixer also... :)

as near as i can tell we were only dissapointed because it was not guitar related... everyone that wanted a mixer and speakers seem to be quite pleased.

 

Beating a dead horse for rational reasons.So that we or the next pod buyers will have a more honest advertise from line6.Lately it took the downfall with the marketing lies. Remember the stage source.Everybody expecting something dreamy, something really awesome and big that will bring a crazy innovation, and it was only speakers...


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#76 phil_m

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:07 PM

When you see an ad for a car that says "up to 30mpg" it's commonly assumed that under optimal conditions it will get 30mpg.  It doesn't mean that the car will never get less than 30mpg.

 

Exactly... In reality, it means 30mpg is the best you'll ever see, and you'll be lucky if you ever see that.


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#77 arislaf

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:09 PM

Wish I had my hand on 2 of these...Very big for my house anyway...:'( I believe they are awesome...

but it is really awesome... and its a mixer also... :)

as near as i can tell we were only dissapointed because it was not guitar related... everyone that wanted a mixer and speakers seem to be quite pleased.


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#78 gunpointmetal

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:21 PM

cars usually have that all important little asterisk or disclaimer explaining how they got to 30MPG and why its not to be expected.....apples and grapefruit guys....


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#79 TheRealZap

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:21 PM

Yum, Doritos.

 

 

and we can also compare Line 6 equipment to Doritos if we want to really skew a comparison. at least like, make an apples to apples comparison.

 

 

 

doritos-demotivational-poster-1231114353


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#80 phil_m

phil_m

    Uber Guru

  • Line 6 Expert
  • 5490 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis, MN

Posted 03 January 2014 - 01:33 PM

cars usually have that all important little asterisk or disclaimer explaining how they got to 30MPG and why its not to be expected.....apples and grapefruit guys....

 

Sure, and Line 6 posts the manuals to all of its products on its website for anyone to download. The DSP Limit was never a secret.


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Time is a train
Makes the future the past
Leaves you standing in the station
Your face pressed up against the glass

 





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