Jump to content


Photo

How Has Greatly Improved My Use Of The Hd500

hd500 input settings single input approach

  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

#41 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 22 March 2014 - 01:39 PM

behind the scenes..

HD 500/bean/pro input routings, my theory

already much has been written on the top HD series input routings topic ..

even by myself..

 

this topic is getting a bit boring, I know.. :wacko: .. but I think that someone could find interesting this new point of view..

given the really good results I'm getting from my daily use of the device using the single input approach, I have formulated a new theory on the HD500 input routings, which I think really makes more sense to me now

I'm not saying that I'm right or that I'm telling you the absolute truth on this topic, it's only my opinion, there is nothing official here

 

if you want an official suggestion on this topic go read in the rectangle at pag 54 of the advanced manual

I’m going to use a slightly more technical language from here on

for simplicity of writing this post seems written as a final theory, but it's not,

and remember, it's only a personal hypothesis

 

if you want to jump directly to some final recommendations go directly to the bottom of this post


so here it is:


premise
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
each block has 2 inputs and 2 outputs L and R

from each mono block 2 equal halves of the processed signal come out respectively from its L and R

-----------------------

the 2 paths A and B get activated by putting something into them at any point, and also they are already active until you don’t put anything in pre-position

therefore as soon as you put the first thing in the default pre-position, the pre position becomes active and the 2 paths A and B get deactivated, (but they can be activated by splitting the pre-position at any point farther on)

 

activated paths are full stereo chain/paths starting from the split point,

which point corresponds to the beginning of the chain until you put something in pre-position

 

the fact
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

only in case that the paths get activated, at the split point, is generated a copy of the signal present in each of the paths input points, which is combined together with the copied signal

what??.. why??..  :o ..  I hear you.. it was loud!

the above behaviour (that unfortunately is fixed as it is) is due to a “splitter/duplicator-paths activator”, it is a mechanism that serves to compensate the signal level entering in each path, it is particuraly useful when a signal coming from a single chain gets splitted in 2 chains:

ie since any mono block sitting in pre-position generates 2 halves L and R of the processed signal, when each of these L and R eventually go to another chain/path, gets duplicated to recreate a full signal in its respective new path

 

here is a personal sketch to help understand what I'm saying:

https://www.dropbox....outings 001.jpg

 

Attached File  hd500 routings 001.jpg   45.69KB   6 downloads

 

considerations
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the splitter/duplicator mechanism described above works very well for one of the most typical rig uses, ie when by using just 1 guitar input (as everyone would normally do) an initial single chain gets splitted toward 2 different chains/amps, therefore each new chain/path (thanks to the splitter/duplicator) will work with a reconstructed full signal, a perfect behaviour in this case I would say..

unfortunately the same above fixed mechanism works less well in case you want to use instead 2 completely separate chains, or if you want to use just one of these 2, because due to the splitter/duplicator (which in this case would be at the very beginning of the chain), another additional signal, copy of the input signal, is automatically entered into each path, causing easily exaggerated responses especially from the first model in the chain, which may consequently affect the quality of the sound obtained by all the subsequent models in the chain, for various aspects ..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so in few words:

 

as soon as you put anything in path A you activate both paths, and the signal entering into each path gets duplicated at its insert/split point, which point could be also at the very beginning of the chain if you don’t have anything in pre-position, or farther on if you have something in pre..

 

the above statement means that an halved signal going to an activated path becomes a full signal again,

and a full signal going to the same path becomes doubled..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

some final tips:

if you want use a chain like you would do with the real things with a single guitar signal going into effects and to the amp, rack, cab, mic, etc.. don't duplicate your guitar signal (ie don't leave the default setting "input2=same"), and don't use path A alone/separate..

[the real and main purpose of input2 is to be able to select 2 different instruments for 2 different chains (eg guitar and voice), otherwise would not have been necessary to have also a second input setting]

the default pre position is absolutely the best place where to start your chain, especially if your signal is not duplicated,

the Line6 HD models are wonderful and really shine when used this way,

the difference is almost as night and day compared with the other (default) input method

---------------------------

if you use a normal guitar
set input1=guitar
    input2=variax (if you have a bean set "mic" here)

if you use a variax guitar
set input1=variax
    input2=guitar

start your chain in default pre position, and continue as you want
  


  • 2

#42 FlyingsCool

FlyingsCool

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 22 posts

Posted 22 March 2014 - 02:09 PM

I be thinkin' this thread should be pinned....


  • 2

#43 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 22 March 2014 - 02:37 PM

I be thinkin' this thread should be pinned....

 

thanks... but I'm sure it will never happen


  • 1

#44 RNRage

RNRage

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 148 posts

Posted 22 March 2014 - 09:12 PM

Great write up. Another vote to pin this topic.
  • 0
Endorses:
Amps: Mesa Boogie, Fender, Blackheart, Line 6
Guitars: Fender, Gibson, Epiphone, Takamine
Effects: Line 6, Boss, MXR, DOD, Ibanez, Crafter, Mesa Boogie, Heil, Morley

#45 RIblues

RIblues

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 92 posts
  • LocationRhode Island

Posted 23 March 2014 - 05:04 AM

How the inputs work flow works is clearly defined in the Advanced Manual:

 

Input 1 and Input 2 Source (Knobs 1 & 2) - Select the physical input(s) that you want to be the “source” fed into the signal path. Note that you can choose different Sources to independently feed each signal path, or choose Same to feed a common Source into both paths.

  • The Variax and Variax Mag Input Source options are provided for Line 6 Variax® guitars when connected into the POD HD500X Variax Digital Input (VDI).

  • With a James Tyler® Variax® (JTV), the “Variax” Input Source receives the Model or Magnetic signal, depending on the JTV’s Model switch settings.* The “Variax Mag” Input Source receives only the JTV’s Magnetic Pickup signal.

  • If you own a first-generation Variax instrument, it is recommended to choose the Variax Input Source option. Please also refer to your Variax documentation. 

About Source Input Signal Routing:

2•7

It is important to note how POD HD500X actually routes Source Inputs 1 and 2 through Amp & FX Blocks that are positioned “Pre” position. The following behaviors apply:

  • In a configuration with no Amp or FX Blocks in Pre, Input 1 is fed only to Path A and Input 2 only to Path B. Therefore, this is the best configuration if you want to retain discrete Input Sources into Paths A & B.

  • Placing an Amp Block or an active mono FX Model in Pre results in a “mix-down” of Input Sources 1 & 2, feeding the same, combined signal into each Path A & B.

  • Placing a Stereo FX Model in Pre results in the left channel FX output being fed to Path A and its right output to Path B.*

  • The Mixer Block’s Volume and Pan options provide independent control for Path A & B outputs before they are fed through any Blocks positioned “Post” the Mixer.

  • By setting Input 2 to “Same,” this effectively routes your Input Source to both stereo Paths A & B (which is how you can feed one guitar input into two Amp Models and/or parallel FX, for example). 

Also refer to page 3.5 and 6.1 for further info on stereo/mono effects placement and amp model positioning.

 

Furthermore, there are no hard and fast rules with this device. Use the setup that delivers the tone that you are trying to achieve, that may be setting Input 2 as Same or not.

 

Hurghanico, thanks for taking the time to present your research and opinion. But, until you upload some of your tones to Customtone so that we can load them into HD Edit and see exactly what you have outlined, the conversation may not get far. I know you provide your settings on Soundcloud, but the novice, new user or person who just does not understand what you presented will not get it, they need to see it.

 

Finally, I believe that adding a stereo effect into the signal chain, and depending on where it is placed, will determine what Input 2 should be set to.


  • 1

#46 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:30 AM

Hurghanico, thanks for taking the time to present your research and opinion. But, until you upload some of your tones to Customtone so that we can load them into HD Edit and see exactly what you have outlined, the conversation may not get far. I know you provide your settings on Soundcloud, but the novice, new user or person who just does not understand what you presented will not get it, they need to see it.

 

I know that it isn't so easy to understand what I said in this thread immediately after the first reading, especially if you are not familiar with the use of the device, but at the moment this one is the simpler way I found to explain my point of view..

 

one of the best and quickest ways to feel at least the difference in sound quality obtainable by using the single input approach, and using instead the default double input approach, is to connect a guitar to the POD, open a new empty patch, do a quick tour of all the amp models without changing anything, after that change the input setting as suggested in this thread, do another tour of the all the amp models, probably you'll have to turn up a bit the volume but finally you'll feel the true HD quality..

 

anyway I'll try at some point to do some elementary patches to help seeing my theory on the input seetings presented here..

I think I'll post them directly here, not in Customtone


  • 0

#47 RIblues

RIblues

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 92 posts
  • LocationRhode Island

Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:45 AM

That would be best, start with your Hey Joe patch.


  • 1

#48 radatats

radatats

    Gear Head

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 688 posts
  • LocationOrange County, NY

Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:05 AM

I think I'll post them directly here, not in Customtone

 

I think you will find that is not a good option... You can't post a patch directly without renaming it as a txt or something and you only get so much file space to upload attachments before they won't let you upload anything.  The best solution is to post to Customtone and paste the link to the tone here with your post.  Look forward to seeing what you do...


  • 1

l6+sig+pic-1.png   


#49 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 23 March 2014 - 10:41 AM

I think you will find that is not a good option... You can't post a patch directly without renaming it as a txt or something and you only get so much file space to upload attachments before they won't let you upload anything.  The best solution is to post to Customtone and paste the link to the tone here with your post.  Look forward to seeing what you do...

 

thanks for the advice friend radatats

based on what I see, a single patch is
4.03KB

 

under my post edit window is written:

"You can upload up to 555.98KB of files (Max. single file size: 555.98KB)"

 

555.98 / 4.03 = 137.96 -----> 137 patches and 0.96 KB for a bit of air and to shake them..

 

perhaps some KBs will be lost to compress them in a zip folder, but anyway surely I'm not going to post so many of them..

 

just I don't know if the 555.98KB actual limit I'm seeing is per post, or if that is what remains for me globally


  • 0

#50 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 23 March 2014 - 06:55 PM

I came to the conclusion that it doesn't serve much to prepare and share patches to prove this my theory, and then at least for the moment I will not, also because it needs even more time to be able to do a good job with further accompanying explanations, and the work week is about to begin, and then for now I will list at least the key points of my reasoning:

- as long as you do not put something in the pre position you have 2 independent stereo paths A and B starting at the beginning of the chain

- every mono block generates 2 halves of the processed signal

- every halved mono signal coming from the pre-position, before entering into one of the stereo paths A and B, needs a mechanism to reconstruct the entire signal and become stereo

- the split point can be anywhere before the mixer block, even at the beginning of the chain

- the mechanism referred to above, doesn't distinguish the position of the split point and always behaves in the same way with any signal is present at the inputs of the paths A and B

- there is no doubt that an amp in pre position, with 2 same signals at its input sounds and distorts in exactly the same way to the same amp put instead in path A separate and independent

- last but not least, the single input approach gives much better and realistic results in terms of sound quality, why?..

there must be a logical explanation

-------------------------------------------------------------------

as far as possible I will try to answer all your questions about this topic


  • 0

#51 jandrio

jandrio

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 248 posts

Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:25 AM

 


here is a personal sketch to help understand what I'm saying:

https://www.dropbox....outings 001.jpg

 

attachicon.gifhd500 routings 001.jpg

 

 

Could u pls provide us with a similar sketch demonstrating what u believe is happening when BOTH inputs are active?


  • 0

#52 RIblues

RIblues

    Just Startin'

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 92 posts
  • LocationRhode Island

Posted 24 March 2014 - 02:30 AM

There is very little involved in posting a patch, they are already created on your pod. Save it and then upload, done. If we can't put one of your tones on HD Edit and observe all of the settings as well as switch some things around to test your theories, then the we are at a dead end.

 

Inputs 1 and 2 are "source" inputs which tell the unit what you have plugged in, It could be a guitar and a mic. By selecting "same" on input 2, you are just doubling your signal which of course could cause your signal to be "hot", therefore possibly overdriving the circuit. It could, but it could not. Also, as soon as you put anything in the pre position, everything changes depending on whether it is mono or stereo.

 

You could also do this, put your amp in the post position. Then whatever happens in the pre position all goes into the front end of the amp.


  • 1

#53 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:23 AM

Could u pls provide us with a similar sketch demonstrating what u believe is happening when BOTH inputs are active?

 

here is the sketch that you asked me:

https://www.dropbox....outings 002.JPG

 

Attached File  hd500 routings 002.JPG   41.43KB   1 downloads

however, when both inputs are active, it happens that if the 2 HD inputs are equal to each other, the mono effect in pre (if any) receives a double signal, and provides 2 halves of the double signal processed, therefore doing the math provides 2 full level signals about equivalent to the originals, the splitter/duplicator mechanism duplicates each of them when they enter into the paths, and so every path works with a doubled signal

if there is nothing in pre position the signals HD
INP1 and HD INP2 pass directly into the splitter/duplicator to be duplicated before going into the 2 paths A and B


  • 0

#54 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:39 AM

There is very little involved in posting a patch, they are already created on your pod. Save it and then upload, done. If we can't put one of your tones on HD Edit and observe all of the settings as well as switch some things around to test your theories, then the we are at a dead end.

 

the experimental patches are not already in the memory of my POD, there are only some of the patches I use to play and record..

at the moment I'm very busy, as soon as I'll find the time I'll try to do something more..


  • 0

#55 jandrio

jandrio

    Iknowathingortwo

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 248 posts

Posted 24 March 2014 - 04:48 AM

OK, waiting 4 demo patch upload, as per RIblue's posts (Hey Joe patch used 4 recording the SoundCloud demo?).


  • 0

#56 hurghanico

hurghanico

    Power User

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1257 posts
  • LocationBologna, Italy

Posted 24 March 2014 - 07:21 PM

ok, on request, I have attached to this post the patches that could serve to illustrate my theory a little better, I hope..

first of all make sure that the system inputs of your pod are set to "preset" and not "global", otherwise everything that follows here will not help..

-----------------------------------------------

now using HD500 Edit load the patch "01"

in this patch "input1 = guitar" and "input2 = Variax", in pre position there is a plexi bright channel amp with its default settings..

connect your guitar to the "guitar-in" physical input and play a little bit, try to memorize the amount of distortion, balance and clarity/definition of the sound ..

-----------------------------------------------

now load the patch "02"

as in the previous one, in this patch "input1 = guitar" and "input2 = Variax", the amp is the same as in the previous patch, but was moved to path A, and to get the sound to the center of the stereo space, pan/balance "A" was centered ..

play more or less the same things that you've played with the previous patch, you will notice how the distortion is increased, the noise is increased and the sound is less clear and defined ..

according to my theory this happens because the splitter/duplicator has duplicated the incoming signal in path in A, resulting in what I have already described ..

-----------------------------------------------

now load the patch "03"

this patch has the inputs set as default (input1 = input2), still the same amp, here is in pre position, it is therefore reached by both input1 and input2,

play it again and you will notice that it sounds in an identical manner to the patch "02"

-----------------------------------------------

now load the patch "04"

in this patch "input1 = guitar" and "input2 = Variax", there is a noise gate (mono effect) with the threshold at 0% in order to not affect the sound, there's the usual amp in pre position ..

play and you will notice that the sound is identical to the patch "01", well ..

-----------------------------------------------

now load the patch "05"

in this patch "input1 = guitar" and "input2 = Variax", there is a noise gate (mono effect) with the threshold to 0% in order not to affect the sound, the amp has been moved to path A, and to have the sound at the center of the stereo space, pan/balance "A" was centered, the "B" channel is muted,

play again and you will notice that it sounds like the patches "01" and "04" (which had only one active input) , well ..

let us analyze for a second the route of the signal in this patch:
a single guitar signal reaches the noise gate, from the noise gate are outputted 2 equal halves L and R of the processed signal, at this point of the patch there is the split point, L (which is a half) should go to path A, and R (which is the other half) should go to path B..

if there was not a mechanism for doubling the half signal going to path A, the resulting sound from the amp in path A should be much less distorted and more clean than in patch "01" (which had only one full active input) and instead is exactly the same ..

----------------------------------------------

load the latest patch "06"

this patch has the inputs set as by default (input1 = input2), there is a noise gate (mono effect) with the threshold to 0% in order not to affect the sound, the amp has been moved to path A, and to have the sound at the center of the stereo space, pan/balance "A" was centered, the "B" channel is muted,

play again and you will notice that it sounds in an identical manner to the patches "02" and "03", this because the mechanism splitter/duplicator, by using the L (semi-part) coming from the noise gate, has reconstructed in path A a signal that was already doubled at the input of the mono fx

 

----------------

PS. if you are using a variax you should swap the input settings of the patches "01" , "02" , "04" , "05"

Attached Files


  • 1





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: hd500, input settings, single input approach

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users