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#1 NucleusX

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 10:52 PM

Hi.

 

I have a Boss FV-500H connected to the Shortboard MKII via its "EXP. 2" Jack as a 2nd

expression pedal and isn't "quite" functioning correctly. The Shortboard was detecting input from

it and could also be selected in FBV Control, but both VOLUME & WAH LED's where not lit

simultaneously as the manual says they should when external expression pedals are connected.

After reading this post by someone having a simular problem, I decided to give his advice a go. 

 

http://line6.com/sup...ew/thread/84120

 

Trying out his idea of plugging it in "while" power was on made it finally work, but not

without his downside of having to do this everytime rather than an auto-detection.

This to me sounds like a firmware bug. The Pedal 2 expression pedal should be

detected by the Shortboard when the unit is switched on from the off state with both

LED's on but only 1 LED lights up. If I disconnect and re-connect it while the Shortboard

is on, both LED's light up aswell as the assigned FX working as they should.

 

Do I really have to do this everytime I want to use my gear ?


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#2 TheRealZap

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:33 AM

pedal 2 works and is supported only with the line6 expression pedal... 

any issues using other pedals would need to be addressed by the maker of the pedal...

the only one i know that is not line6 and supports use with line6 gear is mission engineering.

 

from being on these forums for years i can tell you, there are more 3rd party pedals that don't work than there are those that do.

 

doesn't sound like a line6 issue to me, since they do not claim support any other expression pedals.


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#3 NucleusX

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:32 PM

Thanks for your reply.

 

I expected a more technical explanation of the differences as I am electronics buff, its not enough.

 

Extensive googling has proved that alotta people are experiencing this issue and

could be one for the Line6 "Engineers" It wouldn't take much at all, wether or not

Line6 is gracious enough to do so based on customer feedback is another thing.

 

The EX-1 has a 10K pot does it not ?

The Shortboard expects to see a 0-10K ohm sweep via a mono TS socket does it not ?

I believe I'm giving it what it expects to see.

Unless of course, Line6 has implemented an extra component to the EX-1 apart from the Pot ?

I was wanting to get my hands dirty with the specifics.

 

Anyone else ? need a proper technical response.


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#4 NucleusX

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 09:08 PM

Heh, the EP1-L6 made by Mission Engineering that you recommend was specifically marketed towards

Line6 compatibility and was also plagued by the same problem. Keep in mind, This is a pedal that

Line6 and Mission Engineering both worked on together.

 

Funny enough, when I go to the Mission Engineering site for support for the EP1-L6, I find nothing

but dead links associated to it. Line6 doesn't offer a manual or documentation for the EX-1 either.

I can't find any schematics on the EX-1 nor the EP1-L6 anywhere on google.

 

If I had an EX-1 by chance, first thing I'd do is rip it open and draw out its schematic.

2nd thing I'd do is smash it and throw it in the bin, cause its plastic piece of garbage.

3rd thing I'd do is set the bin on fire and laugh maniacally! That's how much I hate it lol.

 

I bought a Shortboard MKII cause I couldn't use the expression directly on the HD Pro.

Now I need to replace the expression pedal from 2 choices ? One being Line6's ?

and the other being a joint project with Line6 ? Haven't left us with many choices.

Especially if those recommended choices create the same issues for some people.

 

I'll nut it out, I know this is possible.


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#5 TheRealZap

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:24 AM

sounds like you are on the right track... you have the technical part down.

and yes everything is possible... but only one thing is supported... big difference.

i've had an EX1 for about 10 years with no problem... sure it looks cheap and plastic...

but it just works.

anyway, try being less hostile...

you're not always going to get only the answers you want out of life.


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#6 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:44 AM

I appologize if I seem hostile but the subject has me somewhat annoyed.

Last thing I wanna hear is an expert pointing me towards yet another Line6 purchase.

Only thing that does is get me spending again which is what any company wants, right ?

 

So you say I sound like I'm on the right track ? If I am then why didn't you converse

with me about a solution on MY track rather on than going straight for the Line6

sales track and hint at a replacement.

No offense Zap but I can't tell where your sales pitch starts and expert advice ends.

 

Anyways I'm close to a solution and when I have it i'll be sure to post it here.

I wonder how long that will last before Line6 deletes the post.


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#7 TheRealZap

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:51 AM

i'm not a line6 employee, and i was only pointing you to a supported solution, since you appeared to want support.

there is a link at the bottom of my posts that explain the line6 expert tag... 

but i can with near certainty say that your expertise with electronics is greater than mine.

i know how to use the gear, and deal with it's quirks... i could not build or modify the gear.

 

we're not going to delete your post... it's useful information to the community if you are able to help people use what they already have.

and plenty of users here will gladly discuss these mods with you...

all i was saying is that Line6 as a company will not support your activity... whereas Line6 as a community will possibly of their own free will.


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#8 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:57 AM

Think about it!  Why should Line 6 support competitor's products for use on their products????  They designed their product so they know how to design an external pedal for it.  It's up to the competitor to say whether their product is designed to work with Line6 Pods or not.


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#9 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 07:02 AM

Righto.

Can't blame a guy for being suspicious of what strict guidelines Line6 has put you on

of what you can and can't say but if you say your not an employee then fair enough,

I'll have to take your word for it.

 

Charlie, I don't expect squat from Line6 and the idea of Line6 compensating for

this in firmware would go against their profits, so no, I don't expect it. Luckily this

is one of those things that might be worked around even if Line6 want to maintain

their very own exclusive proprietary standards.

 

All I need is some technical data on their expression pedals and I will work out the rest.

Like I said, I know this is possible. Wether I get helpful enough information to begin

with is another story. Feel like im being stone walled on the subject.

 

If you knew a little about electronics you'd understand that this isn't one of those

things that "needs" a solution from Line6 engineers, its a simple expression pedal that

follows the same electronics rules as all the rest, they just all differ slightly which %99

of the time can be rectified with a soldering iron and schematics. Simple as that.


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#10 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:44 AM

Wow, You've had the EX-1 for 10 years ? sounds like a replacement model is about due.

Any chance you could take a close-up photo or 2 of the internals ? Would go a long way.


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#11 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 08:49 AM

That interface is dead simple so anyone making a pedal should be able to say it works for xxx versions of the Line6 Pods.  I don't think Line6 is hiding anything.  Sure they would rather that you buy their pedal and they don't want to support damaged pods due to plugging in something that isn't designed for their  interface.


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#12 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:01 AM

Just to be clear, im looking to modify the Boss FV-500H (if needed) not build it from scratch.

 

I have the wiring sorted out and it works just fine, its just the need to unplug

and then plug back in that's got me into all of this, and this issue has happened to

people WITH the EX-1 and EP1-L6 expression pedals which thickens the plot.

Mission Engineering issued a free resistor fix for those that have the 1st

version, don't know what it was changed to tho.

 

My best educated guess is that there's an extra resistor or 2 involved that Line6 added

to keep their design unique and unable to interface with anything else, and most likely 

chose to for business and marketing reasons, As with any proprietary arrangement.

Remember, they only officially claim to support 2 pedal models on the planet.

Can't get much more proprietary than that.


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#13 TheRealZap

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:03 AM

this probably wont help you much... but i took the back off of it and took a picture...

not wanting to tear it down any further... (as i said i'm not an electronics guy)

 

Attached Files


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#14 TheRealZap

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:07 AM

there are no extra resistors etc...

the firmware in the pods/m-series is looking for certain values...

its that simple... 

i'm sure that marketing had nothing to do with it...

if there was that much money to be made we'd probably have a new model by now... 

whatever wiring decisions that were made were made a long time ago...

and may have more to do with the original pod than it does with the current pods...

the current pods more than likely inherited whatever limitations the old pods had in the name of compatibility.

 

 

My best educated guess is that there's and extra resistor

or 2 involved that Line6 added to keep their design unique and unable to

interface with anything else, they didn't have to wire it this way, they chose

to consciously do it this way for business and marketing reasons.

As with any proprietary arrangement.


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#15 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:12 AM

Thanks for going to that trouble Zap.

 

Pity the board is upside-down but I suspect the only things connected to it

is the dual gang pot and the 2 solder points on the right hand side is going

to the socket, did you notice a resistor anywhere in there ? 

If there isn't any extra components involved, that

brings my expression pedal validity one step closer.

(going through a process of elimination here)


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#16 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:17 AM

Hmm interesting. what device have you got it connected to, FBV or straight to HD 500 ?

Do you need to unplug and plug back in for the unit to detect it, or does the pedal 

get automatically detected after turning the unit on ?


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#17 TheRealZap

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:32 AM

didn't notice any anything connected to the board except the jack and the pots, which seems to match up with the solder points on the board.

I dont regularly use it at all (i actually have 2) but i have used it with the 500, the m13, the m5, and the FBVMKII (pod hd bean and pro x)

always worked as expected. but it was usually just some experimentation... so not really being that particular.


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#18 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:32 AM

Just how sensitive it is to resistance is unclear aswell because I've read some say

that its a 10K Pot, others have said that its a 6.8K pot.

Putting a 22K resistor in parallel with the 10k Pot will bring the overall

resistance down to around 6.8K.

Be nice if I got a definite clarification on the EX-1's impedance, or even the

updated EP1-L6, would be case closed after that.

I may even have a defective FBV but ima leave that as last resort.


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#19 TheRealZap

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:34 AM

officially the resistance is 10k.

this is done with the stacked pots... so the pots themselves are whatever value = 10k stacked (as i said... not an electronics guy)


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#20 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:54 AM

didn't notice any anything connected to the board except the jack and the pots, which seems to match up with the solder points on the board.

I dont regularly use it at all (i actually have 2) but i have used it with the 500, the m13, the m5, and the FBVMKII (pod hd bean and pro x)

always worked as expected. but it was usually just some experimentation... so not really being that particular.

 

Interesting you say that.

 

The EP1-L6 was originally designed for the older Line6 products and that fix was issued for it to be usable on the POD HD series.

Although, I'm not sure wether Line6 had to modify their EX-1 later on for the same reasons.


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#21 TheRealZap

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:57 AM

Yeah i was aware of their fix, not familiar with specifics of it... but i do know that the EX1 has stayed the same. I think missions original design just did something a little differently to achieve the same result (in theory)

it was apparently different enough to require the mod they offer.


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#22 NucleusX

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 10:02 AM

Okey Dokey, Thanks for your replies. I'll touch base over the next few days and post my findings.


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#23 NucleusX

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 05:22 PM

Ok peeps, seems I've finally found the answer that might start WW3 in this thread lol.

 

Got an email from an audio technician here in Australia who had this looked at by another tech aswell, This was his response to me.

 

"This is a quirk of the Shortboard, and occurs with the EX-1 pedal as well - the pedal needs to be plugged in after the Shortboard has

fired up as the Shortboard does not do a detect when initialising. We understand that there is no moves by Line6 to address this."

 

So, it seems my first hunch was correct, this leads back to a firmware debate.

 

I can rule out the expression pedal interface aswell, its electronically compatible in its specifications and functioning well otherwise.

Now if this issue only occurred with models outside the EX-1 and the EP1-L6 then, I would've let this go and just put up with it.

But as its obvious it occurs even with the recommended models, I believe I have enough justification to at least discuss why

Line6 haven't addressed this problem in the form of a firmware update for the FBV Shortboard MKII.

 

What's your thoughts ? Calling all Line6 defenders and fans.
 


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#24 TheRealZap

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:23 PM

my thoughts are that you should contact them and discuss it with them....

 

just be prepared, as they may say "no ex1, no support"

 

http://line6.com/company/contact/


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#25 NucleusX

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:34 PM

my thoughts are that you should contact them and discuss it with them....

 

just be prepared, as they may say "no ex1, no support"

 

http://line6.com/company/contact/

 

What exactly do you mean by "no ex1, no support" ?


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#26 TheRealZap

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:37 PM

I mean they aren't going to help you with YOUR pedal because its not an EX-1 which is the only pedal they support.

you can tell them about your issue, and suggest it may affect the EX-1 as well... and they may look into it...

but it's been over a year since we've had a substantial update to the pod HD series.... (with the exception of the recent L6Link related update)

I can pretty much assume from that the issue must have existed for at least a year now... (if it in fact does affect the EX1)

and they weren't in a hurry to fix it if they knew about it.


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#27 silverhead

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 07:40 PM

...

 

Anyone else ? need a proper technical response.

 

Then you should contact Line 6 technical support.

 

http://line6.com/support/tickets/


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#28 NucleusX

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 09:03 PM

It might've been a year ago since last update but the Shortboard MKII is

still being manufactured and sold currently. One would think that

while this is still being sold, it should also have continued support.

 

For anyone with a Boss FV-500H expression pedal and wish to know how I

connected mine to the Shortboard MKII, I made a quick diagram to share.

Pedal is unmodified and pot resistance is 10K.

May work with Boss FV-500L aswell provided it has a 10K pot.

Haven't tested on POD HD500 but I assume its the same.

 

Attached File  Expression Cable.jpg   69.3KB   2 downloads

 

Using a stereo TRS to 2 x mono (L-R) TS insert cable with

stereo TRS connected to the FV-500H, and the tip mono

TS plug to the Shortboard MKII will also work. The other

ring mono TS plug is not connected to anything.


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#29 NucleusX

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 04:28 PM

Well I believe this is completely down to the Shortboard MKII and its detection now.

All my efforts have allowed me to eliminate the expression pedal out of the equation.

Bit surprised no-one else has chimed into this thread and weigh in and I also wonder

if some people with POD HD500's experience this aswell.


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#30 silverhead

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 05:09 PM

The FBV MKII short board supports the EX-1 external expression pedal. Line 6 does not mention, or support, any other external pedal for use with the MKII. If any other pedal works, that would be an unexpected bonus. Sorry, but I can't understand why you would expect your unsupported pedal to work, or think that Line 6 should do anything to help you make your unsupported pedal work.

I suspect other users aren't chiming in because they don't expect unsupported products to be supported.
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#31 NucleusX

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 05:22 PM

What I don't understand is why you experts keep focusing on my expression pedal lol.

If I had an EX-1 connected to the Shortboard right now, it would exhibit the same problem.

People with EX-1 expression pedals have also reported this problem. (repeating myself here)

The expression pedal compatability (which is dealt with), and this bug, are 2 separate

issues, and should be treated as such. Are you programmed to immediately blame other brands ?

I should also mention that I'm an electronics technician by trade and approaching this with logic.

I've also had this verified by 2 other technicians as I quoted in a previous post.

I'm very confident the expression pedal is configured to specifications and is no longer a factor

anymore in the process of elimination. It works %100 as it should apart from that annoyance.

 

"I suspect other users aren't chiming in because they don't expect unsupported products to be supported."

 

I doubt it with the electronics savvy, they'd know this is a grey area and probably

smart enough to stay away from what ultimately seems like a futile quest.

 

Lets say I buy the EX-1 and replicate the situation, would Line6 take me seriously then

and have their engineers write a new firmware update to correct it ? I doubt that too.


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#32 RNRage

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 12:27 AM

Had the same issue with my EX-1 and Shortboard when I had them. Definitely not because he's using a different brand pedal. That's my chime in.


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#33 frankrodler

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 02:04 AM

If Line6 only allows EX1 pedals, they should it deliver with their PODs.

 

If they don't want to support other pedals, what I understand ;-))), they should

provide all necessary technical information about EX1 (R, pinning, pot specs etc.)

Technicians know how to handle it, others ask or ..... buy EX1, no drawback for Line6.

To play a open game always counts.

 

Have a look at:

http://www.harmonyce...s/td-p/30347097

 

Frank


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#34 NucleusX

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 02:33 AM

Ok so RNRage is the first member to verify his EX-1 was doing the same thing.

 

Frank, I appreciate your input and I believe I have firm grasp of the situation.

Maybe I'm just not understanding your english very well.

I'll note that the link you refer to just confirms that the Boss FV-500H, the

EX-1, and the EP1-L6 all share the same pot resistance of 10K Linear.

I know this already lol. But thanks all the same.

The Boss FV-500H is configured correctly and not even a concern anymore. 


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#35 NucleusX

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 03:15 AM

The firmware in the Shortboard MKII needs looking at. 

To include an expression pedal 2 detection protocol during its boot-up

sequence. IF it already has one, it needs tweaking for all of those

experiencing this problem, especially for those with the EX-1.

Its obvious that I'm not the only one experiencing this.

This isn't pedal related, its firmware related, end of story.

If I'm correct, there has only been one firmware update

available for the Shortboard MKII which was V1.10. (No change)

The amount of time I've spent with this stupid quirk could've been better

spent pulling the plug and plugging it back in 3000 times lol. Sheesh.

 

On a positive note, I will say that apart from this over-sight

the Shortboard MKII is an excellent controller for guitar fx

aswell as midi and pc applications.

Pity such a small problem can become such a nuisance

with this unit, I was almost In-love with it.


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#36 TheRealZap

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 05:58 AM

noone here is going to help you with this... contact line6 and ask... thats all you can do... http://line6.com/company/contact/

noone from support or product/software development is ever going to see this...

you can gather 20 pages of minions that back up what you're saying... and still noone here can help you....

even if we assume you are 100% right... we can't help you...

even if you have the ex1... WE can't help you...

follow the link above and speak to someone that can tell you what they know... or pass the info on to someone that needs to know...


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#37 NucleusX

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 05:17 PM

There is a method to my madness.

 

I planned to get in contact with them after the weekend sometime.

What I wanted to do was have a free and open discussion about

this to its natural and only conclusion so I may have something

for Line6 to refer to when I finally touch base with them.

This should also clear the blurry lines for all the members to read.

I could've went straight to Line6 tech support with this immediately

but then, the members don't learn anything from this and are

another reason I continue this here, for them to benefit aswell.

Isn't that what a community forum is for ? to help others too ?

 

Regardless of the opposition I feel I have a definitive

answer now, and one that can't be argued with.

I wonder how many people wasted their money buying the

EX-1 after this advice only to find out, it does the same thing.

I hope in future, the next person that comes along with the

same problem gets told the truth of the situation and not 

just get told "your gear isn't compatible" . 

 

Conclusion.

 

The error needs to be recognised for what it is and

not get swept under the carpet and forgotten.

The analysis also needs to be re-defined for the

public and future reference's for anyone else

that may run into this problem, to read.

 

I will post back my efforts with Line6 Tech Support soon.

I've already created a ticket just now and waiting for a response.


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#38 tcastudios

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 10:41 AM

All I can add is that my new Shortboard and the EX1 have the same issue.

The EX1 needs to be reconnected after start of HD Pro X.

The problem I then get is that the midi CC I create with the EX1 is often not

calibrated correct. I often need to restart the HD ProX at least once

making sure the EX1 is either full on or off.

Thing is, the EX1 works but the EXP2 (green light) is not lit.

 

Cheers

Lennart


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#39 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:29 PM

Another statistic, with a twist.


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#40 NucleusX

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:43 AM

So.. A couple weeks later and this is what I end up with.

Had a rather short response email from the Line6 tech support

and its a single line response I'm sure your all not surprised with. 

 

*We do not support your expression pedal* in essence.

 

Frustrated with this, I kept the ticket running and extended my request

to have this looked into (which I doubt they did the first time round)

and still waiting on THAT response after 10 + days.

I also included the source of my email received by a

technician I refered to earlier in this thread.

 

"This is a quirk of the Shortboard, and occurs with the EX-1 pedal as well - the pedal needs to be plugged in after the Shortboard has

fired up as the Shortboard does not do a detect when initialising. We understand that there is no moves by Line6 to address this."

 

Now, the technician who sent me this email works for a company

in Australia called Australis, and is the main distributor for Line6

in Australia. You can imagine my disgust when I found out this

information practically coming straight from the horses mouth

and then later Line6 denying the problem ever existed to me.

 

I have given up all efforts on this and will NOT continue to buy Line6 products

from here on out. I've avoided them for 15 + years up till this purchase, so

avoiding them in future won't be difficult. Seems my instincts served me well.

 

Good luck Line6 diehards, I'm going back to where the grass was greener.


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