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500x To Frfr Question.


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#1 RNRage

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 07:38 PM

So I got an HD500x and picked up a pair of Alto TS110A Cabs. When running an FRFR rig live.. I have a question as to how you route everything. Would you take your L/R 1/4" outputs and run one to each cab, and run your L/R XLR outs to FOH -OR- Run your L/R XLR outputs to each cab and run another XLR from the XLR output on each cab to FOH?


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#2 NucleusX

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Posted 17 January 2014 - 09:13 PM

Hmm, this could very well depend on what kind of output mode setting you'll have on the POD.

Lets say you chose Studio/Direct, would Studio/Direct suit both FOH and Cabinet criteria's ? 

To the cabinet, I assume your on either "stack front" or "stack power amp" without amp sim ?

To the FOH, I assume your on "Studio/Direct" to a mixing console with amp sim ?

You would have to choose a setting consistant with both applications at the same time first.

Once you've sorted out this choice, you could easily sort the wiring out with your method id say.

 

Most FOH setups have long cabling inherent in them and no doubt have a DI box somewhere

along the line, its best to keep the FOH XLR for DI purposes and venue compatibility and

connect the 1/4 TRS outputs to your cabinet's amps front end, or straight to fx loop return.

Either way, this configuration all depends on your output mode and wether you'll want 

amp sims or retain the cabinet and amps tonal characteristics without amp sims. 

One output choice could conversely affect the FOH or cabinet tone.

 

If your happy with the tone from both sources at the same time then your on the right track

with the wiring, so dis-regard any output mode changes if this isn't a concern for you.


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#3 Charlie_Watt

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 06:34 AM

XLR is a better connection - eliminates ground loops.  I would run XLR where you can for that reason.  If you are using both 1/4 outs they are the same as the XLR outs. (Stereo)


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#4 bvaladez74

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 12:19 PM

Alto's are NOT FRFR speakers.  


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#5 radatats

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:19 PM

Alto's are NOT FRFR speakers.  

 

Really? They sure look like it... What am I missing?

 

http://www.altoproau...products/ts110a


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#6 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 03:45 PM

Maybe bvaladez74 accidently bought a chinese knockoff with the tweeters missing...


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#7 bvaladez74

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:43 PM

Not sure what the mechanics are of a speaker being built...but the Alto's are not considered flat response speakers.   Research flat response.  NucleusX....all of the TS series are cheap in quality.  I have a full PA of TS Alto's.  They're fine for a small room gig...but in terms of needing a flat EQ response for a modeling amp....for the POD....with dirty tones especially...they are the bottom of the barrel.  Clean tones are easier to achieve...but any usable dirty tones require two or 3 eq blocks in the preset...to get somewhere close to usable.  

 

Don't believe me...research it.  Just cuz it's a powered speaker, in no way, means its an FRFR unit.  


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#8 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 05:46 PM

I don't know to be honest lol, never owned alto gear before.

But, if you go to his link and watch the youtube clip, Im

pretty sure they talk about its flat response, just sayin.

I'll even dig into the support pages to see what they say.

 

Well I just went back to have a look and seems I was wrong.

FRFR wasn't mentioned in the video and FRFR wasn't stated

in its product overview and specifications.

Not even the manual mentions FRFR.

They only mention FR (full range)

But they do make them in both active AND passive versions.

 

I don't know radatats, he could be onto something there...


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#9 radatats

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 06:31 PM

Not sure what the mechanics are of a speaker being built...but the Alto's are not considered flat response speakers.   Research flat response.  NucleusX....all of the TS series are cheap in quality.  I have a full PA of TS Alto's.  They're fine for a small room gig...but in terms of needing a flat EQ response for a modeling amp....for the POD....with dirty tones especially...they are the bottom of the barrel.  Clean tones are easier to achieve...but any usable dirty tones require two or 3 eq blocks in the preset...to get somewhere close to usable.  

 

Don't believe me...research it.  Just cuz it's a powered speaker, in no way, means its an FRFR unit.  

 

 

Aha!  So its not that they don't claim to be FRFR, more that they aren't really very good at it.  

I saw their specs (Frequency Range: (-10 dB): 53 Hz - 20 kHz, Frequency Response: (±3 dB): 70 Hz - 19 kHz).

Average guy would think that is not bad.  What would you recommend looking for instead?  Or just rely on opinions from various forums/users?


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#10 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 06:50 PM

When assessing speaker specifications they will usually

also supply a frequency response graph from 20hz to 20khz

which plots out amplitude vs frequency of the speaker.

The more horizontal and flat the graph line is

between 20hz to 20khz, the better.

This is what they mean by flat response.

 

Always look at them graphs first.

 

Graphs tell %95 of the story.

Specs tell %4 of the story.

Ears tell %1 of the story.

 

Specs expressed in figures like you posted won't tell you

everything. The graphs are more detailed and comprehensive.


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#11 radatats

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:00 PM

isn't that what (Frequency Response: (±3 dB): 70 Hz - 19 kHz) means?  Flat response within a 3 DB range from top low to high?  Simply putting it in a graph won't change the specs.  Should we be looking for better than that?


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#12 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:32 PM

Depends if you consider a swing of +/- 3db to be flat. 

And really +/- 3db is a total of 6 db between peak and trough.

I've seen speakers with less than that.

Also, that spec doesn't tell you at what frequency points it

peaks and troughs at. this is why you should look at the graph.

Not sure what they officially spec the FRFR db at.

But note that for every db less and closer to a perfect

flat-line (which is impossible in the real world)

will show substantially in the final cost.

Put it this way. If those alto's where truly FRFR then

alto should be flaunting this claim all over their specs

and marketing it as its primary selling point.


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#13 RNRage

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:38 PM

I'm having absolutely no issues running my 500x with my Alto TS110As and they don't sound half too bad, either. Comparing them to my K10 that I own for keys.. There is absolutely NO justification getting a pair of those for a stereo setup at the price it would be. I own some Behringer B212Ds and used them to decide if I wanted 2 more for my 500x monitoring. No way. WAY too much flop in the low end. The Harbingers were crap. The EV I was looking at for $400 was too heavy (back issues). The B210D Behringers had a very harsh high end.I have a pair of Carvin 10" Actives on their way as we speak to decide if I want them over the Altos. The only thing I found worth purchasing thus far for under $300 were the Altos. Comparing them to the rest of the sub $300 active full range products that I have personally tried, they easily sound best to my ear for guitar playback.

 

Enough equipment bashing/debating/whatever you want to call it.

 

 

 

I'm running the 500x in studio direct mode.

L/R 1/4" outputs to my 2 active cabs for playback.

L/R XLR outputs to FOH.


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#14 radatats

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 07:57 PM

This is all great info and food for thought.  I was asking a lot of questions because these are tempting at that price point.  I understand there are certainly better speakers out there but not at this price and it really rises to whether I can justify the extra expense.  I have been looking at everything up to $1000 a pair and it is hard to decide.  

 

I currently have an ADC stereo graphic EQ into a  Rocktron Velocity 300 stereo amp and a pair of old Peavey 115H passive speakers.  One has developed a rattle I haven't sorted out yet and I am debating swapping the lot for a pair of good active speakers.  Still I may just replace the LF drivers in the Peaveys and be done with it...  But I am sure they are not true FRFR based on what has been stated here...  Still, with the Rocktron and the Peaveys it does kick lollipop...  

 

a bird in hand as they say, might just save a grand...


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#15 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:08 PM

Thanks for the point lol, I needed to get outta the red !


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#16 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:28 PM

You may have seen this before but if you haven't you could learn a little more about FRFR here.

http://line6.com/sup...m-frfr-players/


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#17 radatats

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 08:55 PM

You may have seen this before but if you haven't you could learn a little more about FRFR here.

http://line6.com/sup...m-frfr-players/

 

unfortunately nothing new or earth shattering there...   in the end, if you can't build a good tone patch with one setup, you probably won't do much better on something else.  


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#18 NucleusX

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:07 PM

Admittedly, I should be fully up to date with this so

maybe I should start reading myself and catch up.

Not the basics, just the cutting edge stuff.


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#19 linea06

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 07:04 AM

So I have 2 Alto Tsa that i bought for monitors and now Im using them for the Pod500x to me they sound good but no im worried that my patches wont sound the same in my church.. They use behringers.. Should i continue with the tsa to build patches or should i use headphones instead??
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#20 dbagchee

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 12:15 PM

No speakers are ever truly flat response. Add to that the effect the room will have on every speaker and you end up with this basic idea:

 

If the full range speakers sound good with your gear in the rooms you generally play in then you should be good to go.

 

The other thing is you will always need to tweak your patches to the final system and volume (and band) you will be playing in. It's not convenient, it sucks, but that's really the only way. Tweaking on your Altos will get you close, but if you can spend some time tweaking through the church PA will get you the best results.


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#21 linea06

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 08:46 AM

No speakers are ever truly flat response. Add to that the effect the room will have on every speaker and you end up with this basic idea:
 
If the full range speakers sound good with your gear in the rooms you generally play in then you should be good to go.
 
The other thing is you will always need to tweak your patches to the final system and volume (and band) you will be playing in. It's not convenient, it sucks, but that's really the only way. Tweaking on your Altos will get you close, but if you can spend some time tweaking through the church PA will get you the best results.

Thanks!!! When you make dual amp patches and you adjust the amp nobs on the front panell .. Does that adjust for both amps????
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#22 silverhead

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 10:16 AM

No. It adjusts the active amp, as indicated in the LCD display.
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