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Some Advice On Dt25 Please...

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#1 Spiderplayer7

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:23 AM

Hi everyone,

 

I’d be grateful for a bit of advice about the DT25. At the moment I'm running an HD500 through an old Trademark 30 and then using the Trademark’s XLR out to go to the house PA. Sometimes I use a Variax 700 electric (great guitar, by the way), sometimes a Tele or a Strat.

 

Over the last month or the Trademark has been playing up a bit, getting really noisy for a bit and then going back to its normal quiet operation - I fear it may be on its way out and as I bought it second hand at a good price and have played it for about 5 years, I'm ok with that.

 

So I'm in the market for a tube amp. Here are my requirements:

 

- reasonably low wattage

 

- must have XLR out 

 

- must have effects loop

 

So there are quite a few amps that would fit the bill, but I feel I'm settling on either a DT25 combo or a Hughes and Kettner Tubemeister 18 combo. The Tubemeister has 2 channels, buit-in reverb, XLR out and you can attenuate it down to 5 or even 1 watt operation.

 

The DT25 looks interesting because of the integration with my HD500 via L6 link - it also meets my criteria.

 

So I'm looking for a bit of advice… I've played guitar for over 30 years now, some of the time as a semi-pro, but at present mostly play in a church worship band which in spite of a fairly loud acoustic drummer doesn't need much on-stage volume. My concern with the DT25 is that it might be difficult to get the tubes working at low to medium volumes - if the sound at low-ish volume is mostly a modelled sound, I think I’d be happier with the Tubemeister attenuated down to 5 watts, and link that to my POD using the effects loop. And the other issue is that I don't really use that many amp sounds, just a mixture of a few clean and mildly-overdriven sounds, so the DT25’s flexibility could be a bit wasted…

 

What do you think, DT25, Tubemeister or maybe another solution I haven't considered? Any thoughts on the quality of sound from the XLR out to a PA? I'm not into mic'ing amps any more...

 

Thanks in advance!


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#2 radatats

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 11:53 AM

If you are only looking for an on stage solution for church/worship band use and don't really plan on gigging much look for a quality powered speaker in the 10-12 inch range, many available for under $500.  Go straight from the 1/4 outs to the speaker and send your XLR to the church FOH.  You will be much happier in the end and so will your sound team...  If you have the budget go for the L2t and be amazed...

 

If you just plain have to have tubes, go for the DT25.  Be aware you may still have issues trying to get a good stage sound and still send a good signal to the FOH due to the default output settings of the POD with the DT hooked up via L6 link.  The tubemeister will be just so much more trouble to hook up in the end as will any 4 cable method...


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#3 Spiderplayer7

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:36 PM

If you are only looking for an on stage solution for church/worship band use and don't really plan on gigging much look for a quality powered speaker in the 10-12 inch range, many available for under $500.  Go straight from the 1/4 outs to the speaker and send your XLR to the church FOH.  You will be much happier in the end and so will your sound team...  If you have the budget go for the L2t and be amazed...

 

If you just plain have to have tubes, go for the DT25.  Be aware you may still have issues trying to get a good stage sound and still send a good signal to the FOH due to the default output settings of the POD with the DT hooked up via L6 link.  The tubemeister will be just so much more trouble to hook up in the end as will any 4 cable method...

 

Thanks for your prompt reply. For about a year I used my HD500 with a Yamaha powered monitor and wasn't that impressed with the sound (too brittle, harsh) - the Trademark is much warmer and more authentic-sounding to me. But I'm a bit concerned about your comment about having issues getting a good signal FOH (I guess you mean via the DT's XLR direct out). I'm getting a nice hot signal at the moment using my Trademark's direct out (and have always had a good signal via my POD's direct out as well) - are there issues with the DT's direct out? I need a good hot signal preferably independent of stage volume...


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#4 BigChas52

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:45 PM

I use my HD500 connected to my DT25 via Line 6 Link for Sunday worship services in full power mode.  Works great, and I have good sound and feel.  I generally mic it with a Shure SM57 to get sound to FoH.  I don't use the DT25's XLR out, as our church has awful power and I get some hum through that connection. No hum via the amp's speaker, so I mic it.


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#5 radatats

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 12:58 PM

DT25 XLR out is mic level output and is dependent on amp volume, not constant.  With L6 link, POD defaults to Stack/Combo Poser Amp mode so your POD XLR out feed wnn't sound as it does in Studio Direct.  I have a DT25 and I love it but I also run through a Rocktron Velocity 300 into a pair of Peavey PA cabs and they sound awesome too...  Still lean towards the L2t if you can afford it...


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#6 STPLE

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 09:18 PM

Here is my two cents.  Little background info - I play for a church in a community center.  The venue seats about a 1000.  The PA is nice and the board is professional quality.  We are on stage sometimes with curtains in the back and sometimes with the shell (this place is used for high school plays, orchestra concerts, etc.).  We set everything up on Sunday morning so if there was an orchestra concert the night before then we have the shell, etc.  So our stage noise situation changes week to week.  We have real drums and use floor monitors (not in ear stuff).  I have a POD HD 500 and a DT25 Head and 112 Cab - I use the L6 link.  With what we are doing and this setup the DT25 is perfect.  I use the DT as a monitor on stage and run the master at around 2 o'clock.  I have a Dr. Zs attenuator.  I run the XLR out of the DT Head to the house.  In my very humble opinion you won't be disappointed with this amp.  It is really really good.  I too didn't think I would use as many amp models but I keep discovering more and more cool stuff that thing can do.  Generally, we use pretty cleans delay stuff but at least one song a set is pretty crunchy and overdriven.  I love the flexibility and being able to change on the fly.  Personally I haven't had any issues with the XLR out (at mic level) - In fact, I think it has been easier on the sound guys.  The one thing that does take a lot of work is balancing the patch volumes.  With time and effort I've been able to get a balanced set each time I used it.  I can't speak first hand about the L2t (I've never used it) or the Tubemeister so I can't compare.  Again, in my very humble opinion you can't go wrong with the DT25. 


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#7 Spiderplayer7

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:42 AM

Many thanks, guys, for your help and advice. I think I am leaning towards getting a DT25, but my only remaining concerns are around making sure I get good tube sound and 'feel' at low to medium volume (it seems a lot of guys on this forum use external attenuators - not sure I want to go down that road. In fact, unless I'm missing something, if you use an attenuator, I presume you wouldn't get the attenuated signal through the direct out as the DT25 wouldn't 'know' it was being attenuated?). I'm not too concerned about the direct out now - as long as it's mic level that should be ok - my church's PA is new and pretty good (like you, STPLE we also have real drums and floor monitors rather than IEMs). 

 

I do like the idea of the integration of the POD and DT - with my old (but brilliant) Variax 700 electric (can't afford a JTV and wasn't too sure about the few I've seen), if I do invest in a DT25 I've nearly got the Dream Rig...


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#8 innovine

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 03:21 AM

im gonna guess that the attenuator is a good idea, the direct out is more or less getting the signal from the output transformer, and by that time the tube distortion has taken place. the attenuator will help you keep the stage volume reasonable when cranking the amp. i dont actually own an attenuator though, so take this with a grain of salt. cant wait to get one.
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#9 STPLE

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 12:25 PM

IMHO you would need an attenuator.  I like the master volume on the amp very high - run those power tubes pretty hard (personal taste).  The DT25 is loud.  I have a Dr. Z's airbrake that I simply go from the 8 ohm out to the attenuator and then from the attenuator back to the cab (I recommend buying the head and cab).  Very simple.  What is like about the Dr. Z is that it has a bedroom dial that I will use to adjust my stage volume without affecting anything going out to the PA.  So if monitors are loud or whatever I can adjust my stuff onstage without messing with other monitor mixes or house mix.  I use the attenuator for practice, rehearsals and then also Sunday mornings.  For this application the POD HD, DT25 and attenuator has worked great for me.


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#10 MartinDorr

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 03:51 PM

I have read (and I think it makes sense to believe) that attenuators distort post preamp effects like delay, chorous and reverb. Depending on how (much) you use such effects you may be happy or can't stand it. As usual ... your milage varies based on what you do and want ...

The latest HD update supporting Line 6 Link output signal attenuation via Master Volume may do the trick for you (while running the DT power amp at high volume settings). Obviously that's also not quite what a loud setup (when listened to or mic-ed) would produce. I think we can all agree that even if the amp would act the same the speakers would not because they simple do not move as much air and the electrical amp/speaker circuitry/connection has non-linear behavior.

Despite of all that I think the HD/DT-25 is a good fit to what the original poster wants to do. Unless you already have both an HD and a DT and are unhappy I would not buy more equipment yet and simply try and see whether you can get happy with the smallest setup (and maximum sanity) possible. I can't judge whether the flexibility of the DT would be wasted for you ... I just love its sound (and I play mostly clean).


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#11 ColonelForbin

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:55 PM

I like my DT25 1x12 combo a *whole lot*. I have had the HD500 since 2010, and it finally sounds really - really good. I liked it so much, two weeks after I got the DT25, I signed myself up for a JTV59 via the Zzounds 8 payment plan. LOVING the trio of these together.

 

In terms of what people are saying about the XLR out, it is a distinction, that the XLR out is MIC level not LINE level. Meaning, it's designed to impersonate the signal level and gain requirement you would have running a regular mic into a mic preamp channel.

 

When I record off the DT direct, it's a low signal level, but it's very, very clean. While I enjoyed using the HD500 in "studio/direct" mode going into the FX returns of various amps and/or PA's/mixers, I can honestly say, that the L6Link to the DT gives you something that you will never have with ANY other amp rig. For me, it's all about the BOGNER portion of this gear.

 

While the HD500 does an amazing job of amp modelling ,and in full 'studio / direct' mode as well as 'combo/poweramp' when attached as I mentioned -1/4" cable to the FX return of my Marshall or Fender combo amps, it takes it to a whole other level with the L6Link / Bogner DT interaction.

 

Basically, think of it like this:

 

The POD can model the power amp characteristics, and even the mic + cab simulations, and quite well. But with the DT, the amp itself creates those power amp tones with actual tubes, and actual analog switches and relays. The POD tells the DT25, to become like a Fender Blackface, and it does; the POD tells the amp to then become a Marshall Plexi, and it does. It's not modelling the portions of that sound anymore - it just models the PREAMP components, and lets the Bogner side of the DT "become" those amps. Very Groovy Stuff.

 

And yeah, it's not a light amp but, it's a lot lighter than the DT50.

 

I can't comment as much on the "low power / low volume" mode - as I understand, this actually kicks in more of the modeled power amp tones rather than letting the amp do those; how it merges them, I don't yet have a full grasp on, if it's on/off, or a sliding scale.

 

I had read, and have not tested, that the low power mode also allows the XLR out to still feed the FOH while the amp is in 'standby' mode. Which would be useful for certain applications - though I've not figured out exactly how that works.

As for the L3 / L2 gear, it looks amazing, and I want four of each of them!! ;)


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#12 radatats

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 05:56 PM

One thing I never see anyone posting about is the ability to customize the power section configuration to your needs.  There are so many variations it is mind boggling between the 4 topologies, Class A or AB and Pentode or Triode.  The Class AB is the 25 watt setting and gives more headroom but the Class A setting is 10 watts and breaks up at a lower volume.  Additionally switching to Triode drops the volume level another notch without really affecting tone negatively.

 

I have been playing around with this a lot lately and now that they have freed up the POD master to work with the L6 link I can get some awesome tones at usable volume levels.  Forget LVM, try picking your favorite pre model, switch to Class A and Triode and see for yourself.  Play with the topologies too, they make a difference.  Also experiment with the POD master and the DT master.  I have come to find that the POD master should be kept no lower than 12 oclock and DT master adjusted for volume.  If you turn the POD master down too much, my tone loses definition and punch.

 

Just because the default configuration is set one way doesn't mean you have to keep it that way.  I love this little amp and what it can do together with the POD...


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#13 STPLE

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:09 PM

Per MartinDorr I tried using the POD Master more significantly.  I took out the attenuator.  I was amazed.  It took some doing to tweak tones but it was worth it.  I noticed the high gain stuff needed more bass and fullness but the clean tones sounded really nice.  I also noticed that if I turned up the channel volume it seemed to have nice results.  Thanks again.


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#14 boyce89976

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 10:11 PM

This is so true... I use Triode/Class A a lot.  Topologies affect volume as well.  For low volume add Topology 1 to Triode/Class A... it will significantly cut the volume.  

 

 

One thing I never see anyone posting about is the ability to customize the power section configuration to your needs.  There are so many variations it is mind boggling between the 4 topologies, Class A or AB and Pentode or Triode.  The Class AB is the 25 watt setting and gives more headroom but the Class A setting is 10 watts and breaks up at a lower volume.  Additionally switching to Triode drops the volume level another notch without really affecting tone negatively.

 

 


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#15 chrishlp

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 03:02 PM

Hi,

 

I use a DT25 in the house and am very pleased with its tone and dynamic feel.  I tehnd to run full amp sims with full power (not LVM) as I think this give a more valve/tube feels. 

 

I've found that adjustign the amp sim master volume and gain on the POD allows me to get any tone I want, with the Tweed and 185 tones being my favourate for low gain/crunch tones with plenty of feel.

 

The DT25/POD HD combo is really powerfull but it does require some time to get the sound just right depending on how high your DT25 master volume is set.  However it is well worth the effort!


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#16 aggravation

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 05:54 PM

My guess is the DT just using the master to tame overall volume will still be a  better amp than the H&K at a same low volume level. I have the DT25 no first hand experience with H&K


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