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Wow, It Just Hit Me Why Modelling Is So Hit An Miss With People....


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#1 smrybacki

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:12 AM

maybe I'm just a dumb lollipop and everyone else already thought of this, but still...

So, I'm watching this video in which they are demoing how the Kemper profiling amp works and it hit me why modelling is so hit and miss.

You only get the sound the from the place it is miced up and with the guitar you are playing through.

Now, I really don't know how Line6 or anyone else (other than this Kemper deal) does things, but if they are all basically the same -- that's what's wrong. I know my amp sounds different from wherever I am standing and even more so depending on what guitars are running through them.  So unless they have some sort of method where they mic from multiple places with an omniscient guitar and can somehow sum them into one cohessive package, it's gonna sound different to different people stranding in different places with different guitars.

Where's the Tylenol....


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#2 cruisinon2

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:20 AM

maybe I'm just a dumb lollipop and everyone else already thought of this, but still...

So, I'm watching this video in which they are demoing how the Kemper profiling amp works and it hit me why modelling is so hit and miss.

You only get the sound the from the place it is miced up and with the guitar you are playing through.

Now, I really don't know how Line6 or anyone else (other than this Kemper deal) does things, but if they are all basically the same -- that's what's wrong. I know my amp sounds different from wherever I am standing and even more so depending on what guitars are running through them.  So unless they have some sort of method where they mic from multiple places with an omniscient guitar and can somehow sum them into one cohessive package, it's gonna sound different to different people stranding in different places with different guitars.

Where's the Tylenol....

 

Yep...so where's the "sweet spot"? What's the formula? Depends on the circumstances, and who you are, and whether or not you cleaned your ears that day. And as someone else pointed out in another thread, no two strats, LPs, or plexi heads are gonna sound exactly the same. It also doesn't help that guitarists are overly picky, crazy, or some combo of the two.


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#3 smrybacki

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:21 AM

Yep...so where's the "sweet spot"? Depends on the circumstances, and who you are, and whether or not you cleaned your ears that day. And as someone else pointed out in another thread, no two strats, LPs, or plexi heads are gonna sound exactly the same. It also doesn't help that guitarists are overly picky, crazy, or some combo of the two.

Crimony, it's a perfect storm of ambiguity!


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#4 cruisinon2

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:25 AM

Crimony, it's a perfect storm of ambiguity!

 

And on the days when you just don't have "it" (whatever it is), is it the gear, your fingers, your ears, phase of the moon? Almost everything discussed on this forum is entirely subjective...pretty much anything that happens with your rig, unless something just flat out won't turn on, is open to debate/interpretation. Why did everything sound fine yesterday, and now its like nails on a chalkboard? 25 years of playing and I've yet to figure that out.


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#5 smrybacki

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:29 AM

And on the days when you just don't have "it" (whatever it is), is it the gear, your fingers, your ears, phase of the moon? Almost everything discussed on this forum is entirely subjective...pretty much anything that happens with your rig, unless something just flat out won't turn on, is open to debate/interpretation.

But to be fair, so are regular amps, effects and guitars subject to the same stuff.

I cannot tell you how many times I have shut down my gear, totally happy with my sound only to come back the very next day turn it on exactly the same and think it's total gah....


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#6 Triryche

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:39 AM

air pressures caused by vibrations of varying frequencies and amplitudes make absolutely no sound until a sentient being perceives them.


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#7 gunpointmetal

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:41 AM

I would think  they probably send a full band tone through an amp's pre-amp, measure it, then do the same through the power amp hooked up to a load box, to see how the internal components affect frequency, how it compresses, etc...then probably take the cab they want with the flattest possible amplifier and do the same thing with the different mics in on/off axis settings. I think the ER is simulated, though, meaning not "modeled" in the same way.

 

Thats what I'm still not sure of, and what turns me off the Kemper...it seems like it profiles a sound rather than an amp, then an adjustments after that are approximations...more like EQ and adjusting a pre-recorded guitar track or something..whats there is there, no changing it, just adding to it or subtracting from it.


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#8 smrybacki

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:57 AM

I would think  they probably send a full band tone through an amp's pre-amp, measure it, then do the same through the power amp hooked up to a load box, to see how the internal components affect frequency, how it compresses, etc...then probably take the cab they want with the flattest possible amplifier and do the same thing with the different mics in on/off axis settings. I think the ER is simulated, though, meaning not "modeled" in the same way.

 

Thats what I'm still not sure of, and what turns me off the Kemper...it seems like it profiles a sound rather than an amp, then an adjustments after that are approximations...more like EQ and adjusting a pre-recorded guitar track or something..whats there is there, no changing it, just adding to it or subtracting from it.

And it might be a $2200 oopsie....


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#9 silverhead

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 01:10 PM

air pressures caused by vibrations of varying frequencies and amplitudes make absolutely no sound until a sentient being perceives them.


... If a tree falls in the forest.......does it make a sound?

(Yes - my university major was philosophy )
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Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans.
.... John Lennon

 

 


#10 bjnette

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:25 PM

On the why the amp and pedalboard settings sounded great last night.

Apart from the stimulants there is a well known and highly desirable tone from

an overheating tube amp.

Apart from recent amp desgins in the older designs the hotter the amp ran the better the tone and output.

Anyway you've all heard the story of the messa tone of heaven as it cooked.

 

This is so well known most  guitarists who can afford a Tech have highly modified amps so that they do indeed run a little hotter.

 

These profile snapshots of amps I hope have it all up running hot.

I can see the profile name now.

Cooking Mesa


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#11 smrybacki

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:42 PM

On the why the amp and pedalboard settings sounded great last night.
Apart from the stimulants there is a well known and highly desirable tone from
an overheating tube amp.
Apart from recent amp desgins in the older designs the hotter the amp ran the better the tone and output.
Anyway you've all heard the story of the messa tone of heaven as it cooked.
 
This is so well known most  guitarists who can afford a Tech have highly modified amps so that they do indeed run a little hotter.
 
These profile snapshots of amps I hope have it all up running hot.
I can see the profile name now.
Cooking Mesa


Yes indeed...
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#12 Brazzy

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 08:41 PM

On the why the amp and pedalboard settings sounded great last night.

Apart from the stimulants there is a well known and highly desirable tone from

an overheating tube amp.

Apart from recent amp desgins in the older designs the hotter the amp ran the better the tone and output.

Anyway you've all heard the story of the messa tone of heaven as it cooked.

 

This is so well known most  guitarists who can afford a Tech have highly modified amps so that they do indeed run a little hotter.

 

These profile snapshots of amps I hope have it all up running hot.

I can see the profile name now.

Cooking Mesa

 

and so the gasoline engine runs it's best just before it goes KABOOM!!!!


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I mostly play at home and my own music which is more of a bluesy Jazzy Rock mixture as I'm still learning how to play guitar so when I post a reply to try and help give ideas you know where I'm coming from. In a nutshell I'm always learning and having fun doing it. Rock-On!! Oh, and if I don't respond promptly I'm probably playing guitar or my computer locked up from multitasking 'cause I'm using Gear Box, HD500 Edit, Audacity and tab filled browsers all at the same time, Hahahaaaa. Surprisingly enough my 'puter handles the load more times than not.
 

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#13 tim1953

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 09:17 PM

I tried to get my point across in the "done" thread when I said

"A real amp in a room is just too complex of a sound to capture with modeling".

 

The sound changes each time you move the mike 1 inch in any direction.

Also all mics sound different even if they are the same model and brand.

The room the amp is in affects the sound.

But even before that happens the way each guitar drives the amp will have a major affect on the tone & distortion levels.

There is so much interaction that happens between the guitar and amp you select.

Every little change in volume, pick attack, the amount of preamp drive, power amp drive, transformer & speaker interaction, etc. affects the sound.

It's just impossible to capture all of that in a snap shot of sound.

I don't think anyone can even know of or think of all the variations that happen with a players touch, the guitar and amp.

Even if they did I don't think the CPU in the HD 500 is capable of storing all that information.

It's actually truely amazing that modeling an amp works at all.

 

If you've never had a chance to play through great amps you might not notice all the subtile differences between

a modelled amp and the real thing.

If you get a chance to play them side by side like I have you find out quickly that there's a world of difference.

 

When I first got my HD 500 3 years ago the first thing I did when I got it home was canned all the presets - they pretty much suck

and are unusable in a normal gig situation.

Almost all the patches have too much ear candy that doesn't work on the average song.

 

I spent the next few days with my HD 500 plugged into the JBL Eons that I use for my duo gig.

I had the rig set up next to my real AC 30, AC 15, Fender Deluxe and Marshall 800 and built my own presets.

I went back and forth tweaking the HD 500 until I got close to the sound of the real amps.

I realized that (for what ever reason) my amps sounded better than the modelled ones in the HD 500.

It doesn't respond to touch, dynamics and guitar volume control changes like a real amp.

The HD 500 sounds good enough to fool the average listener but it will never replace the real amps.

When my full band goes out on the road again I will be taking out the Fender and Vox amps like I always did in the past.

 

This is not a knock on Line 6 or the HD 500.

It does a pretty good job for my duo gig and that's the reason I bought it in the first place.

I surely didn't need another amp since I'm totally happy with my real amps.

It's just not practical trying to fit my traditional amp rig in the space that is given to my duo on most of our gigs.

I'm sure a lot of players can relate to that.


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#14 bjnette

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 10:32 PM

It is very true the real guitar amp is the combo of the player, guitar, amp and room. some rooms suck no matter how good the amp.

 

To a degree if the modeling or profile snapshot is of the close mic'd amp then realistically it'l sound similar to the amp'd mic'd thru the PA. 

 

To me it is unfair to compare the amp modelling compared to the real amp.

 

It should be the real amp compared to the mic'd amp thru the same PA.

 

If you monitor on stage with a real amp then it gets closer.

 

If you have the real amps and can lug them in and out then use the real amps as you are getting paid.

 

I totally agree that the modelling doesn't compare in the response dept even if close in tone.

 

And that responsiveness is a big deal if you have used great valve amps.

 

To me it is like the difference between a scooter and a motorbike.

You can have a lot of fun on a vespa but it aint for racing. 


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#15 cruisinon2

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 11:05 PM

 
To me it is like the difference between a scooter and a motorbike.
You can have a lot of fun on a vespa but it aint for racing.


Well, you can get around on a vespa...but I dunno about 'fun'. I'd be hiding my face, lol.
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#16 brue58ski

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 12:58 AM

You can pontificate forever on this and I get and agree with most of each sides arguments.  In the 50's, Link Ray sliced his speaker with a razor blade and liked the sound.  Jimi Hendrix had to label his master tapes(1st album) when they went for mastering with a message saying the distortion was on purpose and to not try and fix it.  Whatever you use to get a "sound".  If it sounds good to you it is good.  Make up your own mind and forget about everyone else.  Me, I love modeling and this is where I'm staying  It seems like the main argument has to do with things only the player can feel and notice.   I haven't found many listeners that can tell the difference from a well modeled amp compared to the real thing.  Especially when recorded.


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#17 joel_brown

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 06:41 AM

Although I agree that modelling is not as good as a real amp, we perform for the average listener that can't tell the differance.  Which is why I use a hybrid of PODHD and real Marshall amps.  For me, the combination is better than either by itself.  My friend who has an AXE FXII does and says the same thing.  He's the one who recommended this particular setup to me.

 

As far as something sounding good one day and bad the next.  That's happens with audio and ear fatigue too.  I don't know how many recordings I've mixed that I thought sounded great then came back a few days later and said "What was I thinking, that sucks".


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#18 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 07:07 AM

As recording solutions, modelers will give the average player (not a studio engineer) the best recorded sound possible as even if they had the mic and gear it's a hit and miss using specific mics.

If you find a sound that inspires you to play, then modelers are an amazing solution because they'e no longer different from the recorded sound on a CD. Since most listeners associate the guitar sound they hear on CDs with the what they expect guitars to sound like, it's a win win situation. On the other hand if you're going to spend countless hours tweaking and never finding a sound that inspires you to play, then modeling is not for you unless you enjoy the tweaking part of it and that's cool too.


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#19 cruisinon2

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 09:05 AM

I haven't found many listeners that can tell the difference from a well modeled amp compared to the real thing. Especially when recorded.


There's a reason for that...the average listener also thinks that Britney Spears is actually singing whilst engaged in a choreographed gymnastics routine. I've met people who couldn't distinguish between steel string acoustic, nylon string, or clean electric. Some probably can't tell guitar from bass.
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#20 DeanDinosaur

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Posted 08 February 2014 - 11:14 AM

There's a reason for that...the average listener also thinks that Britney Spears is actually singing whilst engaged in a choreographed gymnastics routine. I've met people who couldn't distinguish between steel string acoustic, nylon string, or clean electric. Some probably can't tell guitar from bass.

True but a recorded POD HD, Ampitube, Eleven, and many other modelers are indistinguishable from a real world amp recorded in a mix with drums and bass, even for most if not all guitar players and tone snobs. In a recording many modelers can sound better or equal to the real thing. Even POD 2.0 is on more records that anyone is aware of.


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