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L2t Vibration And Rattling.... Noise

l2t vibration noise rattle bad

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#1 tudscamp

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:02 AM

I bought the whole system.  2 - L2M, 1 - L2T, 2 - L2S and the M20d.  Love the versatility of going with a single speaker (L2T) for small venue or adding speakers as necessary for larger halls.  Still learning the nuances and working out bugs.

I wanted to explore the L2T mixing board capabilities.  Up till now was just using it as a monitor at low volume, so I never heard any problems with it.  

So, for this test I plugged in the acoustic guitar, vocal microphone, and keyboard.  At less than half volume all around (master and input gains), I am experiencing an obnoxious, annoying vibration sound.  The vibration is present for many vocal notes as well as lower keyboard notes.  It seems to emanate from the rear input panel.  It is quite prominent and can be heard by the audience as well as from behind the speaker.  To be direct and to the point - It sounds like (expletive here)!!!

 

Anyone have this experience?  It sounds like something is loose in the speaker.  What troubles me is that the volume isn't near what the speaker is capable of and it sounds this bad - I can imagine turning it up at a venue.....  Would be the last time they hire me! 

 

Next test will be the rest of the rig to make sure they all aren't vibrating.  

 

A bit disappointing.


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#2 silverhead

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:14 AM

Where did you do this test? My first reaction is that you may be hearing room or external object vibrations and rattling rather than the speaker itself. If the speaker is at fault then you should be able to reproduce this in any room / environment. Can you reproduce this at the same volume level in a bigger room/ venue?
Can you isolate it to this particular speaker, or do all speakers exhibit the same symptom?
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#3 tudscamp

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:33 AM

That was my first experiment.  I held the mic in one hand (singing) and applied pressure to points on the speaker to see if it was something in the room versus the speaker itself. - It seems to be the rear panel - When pressure applied it lessened the vibration.  (although it was still there)  Which us why I said it sounds like something loose internally.


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#4 RonMarton

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:54 PM

This is a "kinda weird" long shot, but I have had the odd loose screw "buzz" on the external facilities and/or "handle" panels of speakers from other manufacturers, ...so a quick all around check with screwdrivers and/or allen keys wouldn't do any harm.


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#5 Mavril

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:23 PM

Hi tudscamp,

I have a system including the L2m, L3m, and L3s and similarly I have used the L2 on their own and am disappointed to have a rattling issue also. I have found that with low mids there is what sounds like a horn rattle (maybe a crossover problem or a loose bit of hardware). Is this the same sound you have?

Before opening the thing up I thought I'd check the forum to see if anyone else is experiencing the same problem.

 

My circumstance is that I notice it on electronic drums (floor tom) with the following points:

- no room sympathetic rumbling

- no distortion on the output of the drums (verified by headphone monitoring and signal measurement)

- no trim clipping (verified by the above)

- no M20d output clipping (verified by the above)

- no power amp clipping (this will happen at about 80dB)

 

If you do have the same sound as I describe and have luck with a resolution, please ensure to post back - I'll do the same.

 

Any other suggestions welcome from my end.

Thanks

Mav


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#6 Jonesysam

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 11:42 AM

I have sent back three l2m speakers and have a fourth doing the same thing. The problem is a resonant frequency buss which a line 6 tech told me they are aware of the problem. He also told me they are trying to find a fix. I have a l3m speaker and have no issues and like very much. I'm hoping the fix will take place soon.
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#7 Mavril

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:41 AM

Thanks for the update Jonesysam, how long does this issue take to present in usage hours?

I tested my line up one by one under a test tone and found one L2m to have a crunchy horn (like it is blown diaphragm) at about 150-200Hz. Not all the time but definitely some of the time especially when it is warm (which would make sense with a resonant circuit).

Guess I'll take it back to the store for a replacement and open a case through support. Plus I'll give my remaining L2m a second pass to ensure the same issue is not developing.

 

While I was inspecting the units for loose hardware I noticed the 'm' speakers have the maker name screwed to a plastic insert which is then used to plug the mixer cavity in the box. This plate is used to hold down a section of the grill (along with the plastic/rubber end caps and socket head screws). I can imagine these parts being problematic to locate a buzz if the screw glue ever separates or cracks.

 

I'm used to bass guitar cabinets which are mostly built to resist unwanted rattles on grills, handles, covers etc... so this inspection was a little disapointing (apart from the metres of foam tape used!)


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#8 Jonesysam

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 06:21 AM

Thanks Mavril for the reply. My issue takes place immediately. The cooling fan, i believe, is the issue.

The buzz or rattle takes place when the F note (in that area) on the guitar is played. The sound comes from

the vent on back of speaker. Spoke to Rep Monday and should get response soon.


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#9 tudscamp

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 03:01 PM

Thank you all for your input. My L2T is boxed and ready to go back. I hate the idea of a tech trying to mimick the problem since it will stress the speaker, but am hoping they replace it.
I am still trying to make sure the L2M's aren't going to misbehave in a similar fashion. I will also post whatever the outcome is.
Thanks again.
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#10 velok

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:20 AM

I should say first that I was a huge fan and evangelist for the StageScape system and the M20d mixer until I was confronted with the horrible rattling problem with the smaller speakers in the StageScape line, the L2m (and I hear also the L2t).  This problem leaves you without decent monitors or a smaller speaker option for small to medium size gigs!

 

WARNING: THE L2m SPEAKERS HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE FAN, THEY RATTLE.  DON'T BUY THEM, YOU WILL REGRET IT.  There is a huge problem with the L2m speakers and consumers should stay away from these speakers until Line 6 either fixes the issue or guarantees that they will find and provide a free fix for anyone who buys the speakers with the current issue.  I went through four L2ms before I finally gave up and returned them.  Every one of them had a rattle when you play between an E to an F on the guitar.  The problem is worse on some speakers but I could not find one that did not have the rattle. 

 

Line 6 tech support is aware of the issue and they believe it is an issue with the fan and resonant frequencies.  It is ironic that it is the fan causing the issue.  Line 6 should not be using fan cooling!!!  If Line 6 had done a better job of design on these speakers they would have used passive cooling for the electronics and power supply like most every other speaker manufacturer.  Passive cooling uses the movement of air by the speaker cone to cool the electronics.  Instead, all Line 6 PA speakers are probably guaranteed to fail when their fans crap out.  It may take a few years if all goes well but these fans will almost inevitably fail (as most fans do) and your speaker will then promptly melt down and require an expensive repair, even if you get lucky enough to only need a fuse replaced.

 

This loud rattle is unacceptable in any speaker but particularly in one that is both very expensive, and more importantly, the only option if you want to be able to use the 31 band EQ on the StageScape mixer. Line 6, please fix these speakers for current users and don't make any more until the problem has been fixed.  I was so irked that I was forced to move up to the L3Ms just to have a working set of L6 compliant speakers.  I would have gone with another brand of speakers if it were not for the fact, at the risk of being redundant, that Line 6 crippled the StageScape mixer and only includes the 31 band EQ when you buy their speakers.  When you produce a mixer design like this, you darn well better produce a working speaker to go with it.  The L2m is to be avoided like the plague right now (the L2t from what I hear as well but I have not tried those).

 

In other words, the only Line 6 speaker that is the right size for a monitor, or a small to mid size main, has a bad rattle.  That means that you currently can't get an L6 compliant monitor speaker or small main for your StageScape setup that does not have a known issue.  Shame on you Line 6, fix this now!  And btw, someone at Line 6 owes me a serious rebate or credit.  I am stuck with my StageScape Mixer two L3s subs and no decent L6 monitors or small mains at great expense.  Wow, who let crap like the L2m roll off the production line?  All someone had to do was plug a guitar directly into an L2m or run any test with a band through the StageScape and the L2m and they would have heard the loud rattling immediately.  Line 6 is clearly doing nothing to tune or optimize the sound on their speakers.  You are getting these speakers from a lab and a factory line without anyone going to any effort to tune the speaker or make sure it is free of major defects.  In this case a bad defect that seems to show up across the entire production line of the L2m(L2t?).   Fire your test lab people immediately!!

 

I hope you don't censor me and not allow this post.  I went to the hassle of testing, troubleshooting, and ultimately returning, these speakers (twice).  Please feel free to contact me if you have any plans of compensating those of us who loved our StageScape mixer enough to go out and buy the whole system (mixer, subs, L3ms) and are now stuck with no viable monitor or small speaker main option.  I believe we are entitled to at the very least a generous credit towards the L2m if they ever fix the rattle.

 

Lastly I would say this, Line 6 appears to be making an attempt to be accepted as producers of high end expensive Pro audio hardware and not just inexpensive effect pedals. WIth an initial list price of $2800 for the StageScape mixer and $1400 for the L3m speaker, you are no longer selling a toy!  To sell a proprietary(L6) mixer system like the Stagescape that does not play well with anyone else's speakers and then have the monitor/small mains not work correctly is just irresponsible.  I really wanted to believe Line 6 was making premium quality equipment and I invested heavily in this system.  I am bitterly dissappointed!


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#11 ArneLine6

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:10 AM

We are currently evaluating a replacement fan that eliminates the rattle that may become audible close to the speakers back panel when playing a guitar or bass solo in a quiet environment.


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#12 Jonesysam

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:09 PM

I've sent my fourth and final l2m back to supplier. Rattle is also noticeable at higher sound levels.
Hope solution is found.
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#13 Digital-sound

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:17 PM

I have 2 of the L2m's as part of my complete system of line 6 speakers as well. Have used for a number of gigs as floor monitors with accoustic guitar. Playing loud of course as it was a full band with acoustic drums. I also use them in my rehearsal space and to play computer audio and music through. I haven't heard the problem. But I will check the E to F scenario. And will post back.

As for the fans, they can last a long time. I have a behringer amp that is about 7 years old so far and is used regularly by the person I sold it to. The fan is going strong and that brand is not considered high quality. Fans are used in many powered speakers and I believe they are used in all amps unless liquid cooled. I am sure there are many many very old amps still running with the fan still spinning. Least of my concerns.

I can understand the frustration of being with defective products, and having it happen a few times is even worse. And although it is very strange to have this happen a few times to you, clearly it isn't as common as it seems. I remember deciding to purchase a presonus board, and read so many complaints about the power supply dying mid show. Seemed more than half of the posts at the time were complaints. But, I bought one anyway. And it was good. My point is, I am sure this can be worked out. The system is great, and I would be very surprised if there is no way to make it good, and find a good one. Maybe you got all from the same batch of whatever is causing this problem? Cause many of us don't have the problem. So it can't be all of them. But if they are aware of it, then clearly it could be any of them.

I would hang in there a bit. But can understand if you don't. It is easy to say when everything is working at the moment for me.

Oh, and I must say that the Stagescape mixer does play well with other speakers. I thoroughly enjoyed the quality of the m20d before making the plunge to the line 6 speakers.
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#14 velok

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:58 PM

I wanted to address "Digital-Sound's' post point by point.

 

First off, I LOVE my StageScape system!!! There are several missing features and things that need to be improved.  I repeat, however,I love this mixer!  I can't wait for the next firmware/software update and even the next generation of this mixer.  Here are a few things I would improve. Most importantly, Line 6 needs to partner with a top notch mic preamp maker or design some of their own.  If a low end company like Behringer can do it (Midas mic pres), than certainly Line 6 can pull it off.  Line 6 should not be relying on complex DSP processing to doctor up lower quality mic pres.  Why did Line 6 produce such a magnificent sound system and not bother to provide it with top quality mic pres?  I don't get it.  It would be nice to see the Quick Record feature increased from 20 seconds to a few minutes. Twenty seconds of sound is a little lean for a decent sound check.  I would also like to see more shared vocal and instrument presets in the Line 6 community.  This one is on us, the user community.  I would also like to see Line 6 spend more time on providing top quality instrument, effect, and mic presets, although the ones already on the M20d represent a fine start.  More boutique presets from top notch artists and sound engineers would be awesome as well.  I would like to see Line 6 increase the number of global FX to eight if possible.  Four is rather limiting.  I would add a few buttons or perhaps even sliders so that all of the M20D's channels could be controlled easily from the same screen.  I would incorporate the 31 band EQ into the mixer instead of relying on the DSP in the speakers for this functionality.  If that requires increasing the DSP power in the mixer, so be it.  This would allow other manufacturers' speakers to be used more effectively with the M20d.  One of the prime benefits of digital mixers is eliminating the need for outboard signal processing. Not including a 31 band EQ in the mixer (like most other decent digital mixers), is a glaring omission.  An omission that is made more painful by the current state of affairs with the L2m/L2t.

 

I would also fix the issue with only a couple of USB Ethernet adaptors being compatible with the M20d.  You need to be able to upload any Ethernet driver to the M20d so that a wider range of Ethernet adaptors can be used. When these couple of Line 6 annointed adaptors are discontinued by the manufacturer (at least one has been already), there will be a mad Ebay scramble to locate ones that still work with your M20d.  A failure point of built in obsolescence.

 

Line 6, please spend some more time tuning and testing your speakers!  If you cannot even detect a loud rattle coming out of your speakers, my confidence as to how much time and expertise has been applied to tuning them and finding their optimal sound design has been understandably severely shaken.

 

I appreciate the point the user 'Digital-Sound' made about fans on amplifiers but think it is somewhat irrelevant in a discussion of powered speakers.  I expect to see a fan on an amplifier(not an amplified speaker) but not necessarily on a powered speaker.  One of the great benefits of a powered speaker is that you can use the motion of the speaker cone to passively cool the amp.  There are no such moving parts on an amp that provide this ability, you must use a fan if your amp design generates too much heat.  Although fans may be used in SOME other powered speakers, many use passive air cooling, and if at all possible this is a superior approach that eliminates the fan.  By eliminating the fan they also eliminate a possible point of failure and of course in the example of the L2m/L2t, the rattle.  If the cabinet design or amount of heat generated by the amp in the Line 6 speakers requires them to use a fan I would try to do the following.  First see if a redesign of the speaker cab and power amp can get the heat level down low enough to use passive cooling.  It that proves to be impossible, make sure to procure fans that do not rattle, have a long life span, and very importantly, include a top notch temperature detecting fusing system so that at least the user only has to fix a fan and replace a fuse if the fan dies (not a power amp, DSP motherboard, whatever.). Fans fail sooner or later.  Therefor, I would encourage Line 6 to eliminate the fan if at all possible. 

 

I am happy that you are one of the lucky consumers who found a pair of speakers without this rattle although I suspect I could reproduce it in seconds even on yours.  You may just not have noticed it or have your EQ set in such a way as to minimize it.  Just turn the speaker volume up and hit an E chord on a hot clean guitar signal and I warrant you will hear it even on your system.  But again, maybe you just got lucky.  Many of us have not!  As far as the "finding an L2m that does not rattle".  First off, how many times should we expect a consumer to take back bad speakers before finding ones that work?  I bought four and they all had the rattle. Finding ones that don't have the rattle is rather impractical.  Are you going to go to a store and ask them to rip open the boxes of many speakers so you can test them?  Even if they were willing, most stores only stock 2-4 speakers at best at any one time.  And let's not even go down the road of what a pain it is to have to swap out speakers when they are mail ordered (shudder).

 

Let me clarify my statement about the M20d "not playing well with other speakers".  This comment was targeted solely at the omission of the 31 band EQ with anything but Line 6 (L6 Link) enabled speakers.  Yes, of course the M20d still sounds good (but not as good as it could) with other speakers but is missing the critical sound shaping capability of a 31 band EQ.  Yes you can use the M20d's parametric EQ to mitigate the problem partially but this is nonsense.  Every pro sound man uses 31 band EQs for live sound.  Buying an M20d to use with other speakers is like buying a Ferrari that does not have headlights.  Critical functionality is missing.  To get the most out of this system you are forced to buy Line 6 speakers, and the problematic paradox is that, currently their monitors/small mains (L2m/L2t) have a major manufacturing defect. 

 

Regarding "hanging in there".  I have no choice.  I am already out of my return period with my M20d mixer and L3s subs.  I also own the L3m speakers (I was compelled to purchase them because of the problem with the L2m/L2t).  I intend this post to be constructive feedback for Line 6 and as a warning to new adopters of this awesome sound system.  Line 6 needs to jump on this issue with their small speakers and fix it!  Simply acknowledging it is not enough.  They have not fixed the issue yet!  If I were the CEO at Line 6 I would fix the problem on the production line for all new speakers and issue a factory recall and fix for the existing ones that have this issue (at their own cost, not the consumers).

 

It is NOT just hype! This mixing system does represent a paradigm shift for Line 6 and for live sound in general.  I could go on and on about how many features I love in this mixer.  The recording functionality alone is almost worth the price of admission although I understand that the latency is too high to use the M20d as a proper DAW (have not tried it yet).  However, after spending thousands of dollars on this system I do not think it is too demanding to expect not to hear a loud rattle when I play through my PA; something even the cheapest bargain basement sound system is capable of.  I want to see a next generation M20d and many software/firmware/hardware improvements.  I don't want to see the StageScape system die on the vine to the sound of a pronounced death rattle in my mains/monitors.


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#15 ArneLine6

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:15 PM

Thank you for your feedback. As mentioned before we are currently testing a replacement fan.

 

I just want to address the point about the mic preamps. Although we have not branded our preamps with a catchy name the entire signal chain from mic input to analog output has a dynamic range of 113dB. Which is one indicator of an excellent preamp. Feel free compare the specs and the sound quality to other mixers and you will find that certain mixers only make 109dB, others 97dB although they have a well known name associated.

 

http://l6c.scdn.line...on/pdf/file.pdf


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#16 Digital-sound

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:23 PM

First, my nick name has been confused with my status. My nick name is "digital-sound". "Iknowathingortwo" is what "just start in', changes to after 100 posts I think it is. It is assumed I guess we pick up at least "a thing or two"! Which I am sure I have, but no expert by a long shot!

You have some very good points. Getting a little off topic of the original thread, but all good stuff. I don't know all the digital boards and have only used this one and the presonus 16.4.2. The 16.4.2 had a 31 band eq on every output. Very convenient. But, it took a couple years to get it. And even with it, I still needed my driverack PA+ for proper speaker management and I found it just much easier to work with. So you could say it didn't play nice with speakers I guess. The M20d is the only mixer I have had that allowed me to remove the dbx from my rack. Although, it was only after the addition of the stagesource speakers. But still, more than I have been able to do.

8 fx on every channel would be great for some I guess. More to be able to assign different fx to different channels. I assume that may be what you mean, because using 8fx on every channel might be asking a lot. I am extremely happy to have 4. I only ever had two outboard (reverb and delay) and I know many "bar bands" only got by with the reverb/delay shared effect on their board.

Anyway, way off topic. Typing to brainstorm ideas, is a lot of work. I am sure things will roll along with firmware updates. The M20d started where some had left off and it is still young. Certainly, Line 6 will look at it as constructive critisicm as any developer would. But I think they will look at your ideas more in the ideascale forum. (At least I think they will. I have heard complaints about that too). But this area is where someone would like to find a solution for their fan problem. And at the moment, it sounds like there isn't one, but Line 6 is aware of it. And maybe when it is solved, there will be a "recall"? One could only hope if it is a well known problem.
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#17 ArneLine6

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:38 PM

We look at feedback on ideascale and on this forum. Ideascale is the preferred place because customers can rank the ideas there. In general we look at any feedback no matter where it comes from.

The 31 band eq discussion is tricky since the best way to solve this would be always to have both- 31band and fully parametric eq's. With the rise of digital mixers the discussion changed somewhat from the old analog side rack requirements. It is valid to say that a fully parametric eq allows a more surgical correction since the frequency and bandwith can be exactly adjusted while the 31 band eq allows a quicker adjustment.

Since the DSP for the 31 band eq is physically in the speaker our system allows this choice only with Line6 speakers and the decision to have fully parametric eq's in the mixer is designed to allow precise system tuning with minimal impact.


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#18 dboomer

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:32 PM

  Line 6 should not be relying on complex DSP processing to doctor up lower quality mic pres.  Why did Line 6 produce such a magnificent sound system and not bother to provide it with top quality mic pres?  

 

Those are very expensive Burr-Brown chips as used by some of the most expensive mixers on the planet.  They are by no means cut-rate and there's no "doctoring up" necessary.



#19 velok

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:54 PM

I am delighted to hear about Line 6's efforts to resolve the issue with the fan on the L2m/L2t!  I look forward to purchasing some L2ms when the fan induced rattle issue has being fixed.

 

Thank you for your response regarding the microphone preamps.  I was aware of the excellent dynamic response of the Line 6 mic pres and my ears like them too.  However, as I am sure you are aware of, dynamic response is not the only quality of a great mic pre, albeit an important one and critical to adequate "headroom".  The quality of the electronic components used (limited admittedly by the mixer's price point), low noise, ability to match different input types, definition, and frequency range are all also important.  Ultimately it is that almost ineffable and somewhat subjective quality of how "musical" the mic pre is that we are all most concerned with.  I could not agree more that a sexy marketing name does not a great mic pre make.  I am not sure however that branding a mic pre is the worst idea in the world if you are going to grow your own in-house.  It helps put a focus and emphasis on this critical hardware component.   Partnering with a known maker of high quality mic preamps is also a viable option.  I would be interested in any links you could point me to regarding the Line 6 mic pres.  It almost seems as if they were a bit of an afterthought or perhaps not one of the stronger points of the mixer due to the lack of detail in the literature on them. This could simply be a lack of marketing info on this component rather than a lack in the component itself.  I was simply trying to encourage Line 6 to focus on this critical part of the signal chain. As the user "Digital-Sound" pointed out however this is probably getting off topic from the L2m rattle issue.  I will try to redirect these sort of suggestions to ideascale or other parts of the forum.


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#20 velok

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:12 AM

Excellent news that Line 6 may be using high quality components in its mic preamps.  Your comment regarding the Burr-Brown chips is the first detail I have heard regarding them other than dynamic range. Thanks!


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