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L2t Vibration And Rattling.... Noise

l2t vibration noise rattle bad

Best Answer Line6Tony , 13 May 2014 - 03:51 PM

We’re glad to announce that we’ve tested and approved a replacement fan for the L2 speaker. At the end of this week, our authorized service centers will be able to order the replacement fan and perform the repair. Alternatively, Line 6 can perform the repair if an RMA is generated. As both scenarios offer the repair under our three-year warranty, please ensure you can furnish a copy of your proof of purchase, a requirement for warranty service. Please see our Service Page for repair process details.

 

Thanks again for your patience and your patronage.

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#41 TheRealZap

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 07:30 AM

I'm sure that they will fix those being produced and based on their findings, offer repair or replacement as appropriate for existing owners.

They've made good in this manner on other products in the past (x3 footswitches, x3 usb, for example)

I'm sure that Tony will be happy to reassure you and make any clarifications or corrections to my statement when he sees your post.

 

Count me down, too - I'm a new L2T owner with this same rattle issue.  I had it replaced already once by the dealer but the replacement has the same issue.  I have the rattle between E and G chords/notes on the guitar at almost all volumes.  F seems to be the worst.  I  would like to know that Line6 will take care of these already purchased speakers when they find the fix before I decide to return or keep it. Actually, I was hoping to buy a second one this month buit, so far I can't tell what support you are offering other than admitting the problem exists.  Are you planning a refund/recall or fix for any speaker that has this issue or will the fix only be for new ones manufactured from now on?  Any help nor information would be appreciated.  thanks


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#42 velok

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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:34 PM

I apologize in advance if this comes across too strongly worded as I value ArneLine6's input on this forum.  I am also intensely frustrated by the current state of affairs with the "DreamScape" system.  I frankly find it disingenuous, or the consequence of a company in the denial stage of a production line problem, (either way it is counter-productive) when Line 6 staff try to characterize this rattling issue as minimal, barely audible, rarely occurring, "only occurring in some speakers", and not a problem for a live show.  The user 'tudscamp' reasserted, and rightly so, that the rattle is distinctly audible, not minimal, and disruptive to both live performance and, I would add, recording. At which point the Line6 rep changed tactics and tried to assert that the rattling must be an 'additional' issue not related to the fan rattle the rest of us have been getting.  So now Line6 has moved from minimizing the issue to attempting to assert that tudscamp's issue is a "special case". His is not a special case.

 

It is hard for me to remain optimistic about Line6 providing a timely fix for this issue when they are still unable to acknowledge the severity and ubiquity of this unresolved hardware issue. 

 

Let me sum up, this rattle can be quite loud, it is distinctly audible in a number of live scenarios.  It is NOT barely noticeable, it is NOT some OTHER or ADDITIONAL issue when someone tells you about the loud rattle.  Yes, it is much worse in some speakers than others.  Bottom line; it needs to be fixed much faster than Line6 is moving!  I harken back to the post about Line6 working on this problem and I hope it gets resolved soon.  This has been dragging on and on. 

 

Lastly, PLEASE, how about a firmware/hardware/software upgrade that provides and allows the M20d mixer's 31 band EQ to be used on other manufacturer's speakers until Line6 resolves this issue?  That functionality should have been included on the M20d, for any manufacturer's speakers, from the get go!   Line6 crippled this beautiful mixer and then failed to have working Line6 speakers to give it back its full functionality (31 band EQ).  Bad form, and if you are feeling the heat it is because you are moving too slow on the resolution and still trying to imply it is minimal or only extends to a few isolated cases.


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#43 Sideshowqaz

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:05 AM

I just bought a second L2T and L3s to link with my existing L2T....new L2T appears to exhibit this problem...accoustic channel is cracking-up so bad it is not usable for performance - needless to say, extremely frustrating.

Does the L3T also show the same defect?....if necessary, will buy a pair of L3T's rather than lose out on any more gigs.
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#44 velok

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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:14 PM

I have the L3Ms and so far they have not displayed the same issue.  I had to return my L2Ms (twice, a total of four rattling speakers).  Have only done a couple of gigs with the L3Ms, but so far, so good.


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#45 Mavril

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 06:12 AM

Hi Line 6,

 

It's been a few more weeks since the last update we had from you and I'd like to know if there is any news?

As you can understand as each week passes my return on investment is reducing. I understand that you may not have a quick solution to this issue but I am beginning to lose patience especially as my investment is sitting unusable.

I'd prefer not to return my l2ms but I need to look at the reality of the situation:

continue to run my system subpar without the l2ms

lose money hiring or purchasing supplement gear while this is sorted out

or cut my losses and return the offending gear.

 

Here's hoping that you can deliver some good news so I don't have to make this difficult decision.


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#46 cruisinon2

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:15 AM

I've been seriously considering going FRFR with an L2T, but this problem seems a bit too common for my comfort level...yeah I know, only the ones with the issue come to the forums to complain, and there's no real way to tell what % of units are affected. But 800 bones is too much for me to gamble on a problem that really shouldn't have existed in the first place, especially when there are other FRFR options out there for considerably less money.


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#47 tudscamp

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:14 AM

I have to admit, my "Ra-Ra", "Go get 'em" attitude on this whole thing is waning. We are in month 4, and I am told we don't have a fix, don't know when we are going to have a fix, and aren't sure how it will be implemented. That is BS.
I sold off EVERY piece of working gear I had to afford this. That stuff is irreplaceable. I will never find equipment like I sold in the shape I sold it. There is NO going back for me.
I am thinking that maybe someone new should step in. My guess is Line 6 people took the nice guy approach..... News flash - IT ISN'T WORKING. It's time for threats and lawsuits. Time to hold each vendor responsible. At each level of the design, manufacture, testing of this fan they need to work.... Overtime, extra time, weekends.... I don't care. FIX IT!!!!!!!! Whatever the cost. To be told that we don't know when is another insult. I bet you sat in a meeting and came up with a date of when you would introduce the system to the marketplace. And the difference is???????
I think Line 6 is looking pretty inadequate right now.
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#48 brianj402002

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:48 AM

I think the "right" thing for Line6 to do in this situation is to upgrade everyone with the issue to an L3. It's a bigger beast but at least you will have usable equipment.

 

I was preparing to purchase 3 L2M's to complete my system but I will wait until this issue is resolved...


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#49 tomtheguitarguy

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:11 PM

I have to admit, my "Ra-Ra", "Go get 'em" attitude on this whole thing is waning. We are in month 4, and I am told we don't have a fix, don't know when we are going to have a fix, and aren't sure how it will be implemented. That is BS.
I sold off EVERY piece of working gear I had to afford this. That stuff is irreplaceable. I will never find equipment like I sold in the shape I sold it. There is NO going back for me.
I am thinking that maybe someone new should step in. My guess is Line 6 people took the nice guy approach..... News flash - IT ISN'T WORKING. It's time for threats and lawsuits. Time to hold each vendor responsible. At each level of the design, manufacture, testing of this fan they need to work.... Overtime, extra time, weekends.... I don't care. FIX IT!!!!!!!! Whatever the cost. To be told that we don't know when is another insult. I bet you sat in a meeting and came up with a date of when you would introduce the system to the marketplace. And the difference is???????
I think Line 6 is looking pretty inadequate right now.

 

Hmmm.  Was thinking the other day . . .  what if I made a video of the rattle and posted it on YouTube...  What if others did the same?  Would it get any traction? If it did, would that encourage Line 6 (and/or Yamaha) to give the issue a little more priority?

 

Not everyone researching these speakers checks the Line 6 forum, but a lot will sure do a YouTube search... Seems these days that the only way to get a company to take any action is to have negative press - which is disconcerting in itself...


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#50 ArneLine6

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:13 AM

This issue has a high priority. The testing takes time since we do not want to introduce other problems.
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#51 velok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:16 PM

I have the L3Ms and so far they have not displayed the same issue.  I had to return my L2Ms (twice, a total of four rattling speakers).  Have only done a couple of gigs with the L3Ms, but so far, so good.

I have to update my previous post and the news is NOT good!  My L3Ms are displaying the same rattling issue.  The difference is that the rattle shows up when I play a "B" bar chord. Perhaps (probably?) elsewhere as well, but I can easily reproduce it by playing a "B" bar chord on my guitar, routed through my M20d mixer, with the volume on the speaker set around midway. The L2Ms exibited the rattle between the "E" and "F" chords.  I now believe that this rattle afflicts at least some if not many of the production runs of L2M/L2T AND ALSO the L3M speakers.  It may extend to the L3T as well but I have not seen any posts to that effect yet and I have not purchased any L3Ts.  I have no way of knowing how common this issue is because I only see the complaints on this forum. I have no idea what the real number of impacted speakers are.  Different people use speakers differently and have varying abilities and experience with live sound.  Some people may have working speakers or simply have not noticed the sound or perhaps have not used the system with an instrument or settings that evoke the rattle.

 

I can only provide my own anecdotal experience.  And that experience is that of the 6, count 'em 6, L2m and L3m speakers I have purchased, every one of them has had the rattle.  Starting from moderately loud rattles to rattles that rival the signal level.  I did not have to do anything wacky or complicated to produce the rattle, just plug in any guitar into my M20d mixer with a clean, hot (but not clipping) sound level, and hit the right chord (E chord on L2m or B bar chord on L3m). If you think your speaker does not have it, crank the speaker volume up anywhere from midway to a bit above.  Some speakers (and some ears) require a bit more volume until the rattle becomes obvious. Hopefully you got lucky and have a working speaker. For everyone else, caveat emptor!

 

Really looking forward to Line6 resolving this quickly and satisfactorily!  I sincerely hope you will not abandon us loyal customers!


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#52 velok

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:41 PM

Hmmm.  Was thinking the other day . . .  what if I made a video of the rattle and posted it on YouTube...  What if others did the same?  Would it get any traction? If it did, would that encourage Line 6 (and/or Yamaha) to give the issue a little more priority?

 

Not everyone researching these speakers checks the Line 6 forum, but a lot will sure do a YouTube search... Seems these days that the only way to get a company to take any action is to have negative press - which is disconcerting in itself...

 

I would hate to see us have to resort to the YouTube solution.  But I do have to admit that your tactic puts a big grin on my face.  Just not quite ready to go there yet despite the fact that I am mega-frustrated and have been stuck for so much money for a broken system, and this has been dragging on for months.  You are right however, if enough people provided videos of the rattle, it might help Line6 get an idea of how loud and how common this rattle actually is, rather than their current attitude which seems to lean toward this issue being rare and barely audible.  Btw, to me a "barely audible" rattle for speakers of this expense (or any speakers) for that matter is like saying your wife/girlfriend is "only a little pregnant".  There is no half way mark; the speaker either audibly rattles or it doesn't.   Besides, this is a pronounced rattle and anything that is audible over the signal (this rattle is) is absolutely unacceptable.

 

Maybe another similiar tactic would be for everyone to call Line6 tech support on the same day and play the rattle into the phone.  Sheesh, what is it going to take to get some motion on this?  We are not doing rocket surgery and building an interstellar drive here; just eliminating a speaker rattle.  At least "tomtheguitarguy" provided some comic relief although your suggestion ultimately has great merit if Line6 chooses not to take the high road on this issue. 

 

I address this comment to my friends at Line6, I know you will take the high road and provide us afflicted with some relief.   I have faith in you Line6, don't let me down!  You can do it!


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#53 brianj402002

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 03:06 AM

I would like to know the number of units sold vs the number of complaints of this issue. Is everyone that is experiencing this problem finding the issue at the same frequency? 


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#54 tudscamp

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:06 AM

Hi All, ( velok, tinorios, brianj402002 )

           I sent a recording to Line 6 a few weeks ago.  They heard it....  They are aware of how obnoxious it is, and now know that this isn't a passing / occasional / barely audible sound.  

           I don't think a video is required to show how or when this happens.  Anyone who has heard it has probably figured out when it is most prominent.  And although I am able to duplicate it at any time by playing certain notes, I have noticed at rehearsal that it will come and go often - which leads me to believe that a series of events (such as an electric guitar in sync with a certain vocal note or harmony) will cause it.  If that particular series of notes is held, the sound remains and is very audible.  If it is a passing event, the rattle / vibration will peak and fade.

          For those who haven't heard it, I am sure that it is there - You haven't hit that certain note or series of notes / events that cause it.

          I will describe the sound as this:  Picture a 4' square piece of sheet metal....  Now take a back massage vibrator, or your electric razor, and press it against the sheet metal.....  Bbbbrrrraaaaaappppppp.......  Get the picture?  tinorios - The rattle has happened in several locations, so I know it is not the result of a particular "room".  It is most prominent in the back of the speaker where the fan is located.  But it is also very hearable in front as well.  

     

         Perhaps Line 6 can do this:  Anyone who is having the issue gets a ticket or repair order.  This way we no longer worry about warranty or return date cut offs.  Also, our actual warranty should begin the date the repaired speakers are returned to us.  I don't know about everyone else, but other than this issue, I love the system.  I just want a good sounding speaker system that is as rugged as the competition and will last me many many years.  


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#55 cruisinon2

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:18 AM

I can only provide my own anecdotal experience. And that experience is that of the 6, count 'em 6, L2m and L3m speakers I have purchased, every one of them has had the rattle.



6 of them?!?!?! I'm no mathematician, but I believe this is what's called a "statistically significant" deviation from the norm.

Sigh....well that about does it for me. Either you have the worst luck of any human being walking the earth, or this is a widespread, hideous design flaw. Now I'm officially looking elsewhere for an FRFR rig.


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#56 malcevansmusic

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:30 AM

I thought I'd escaped the L2T rattle issue, but we played my EP launch gig on Sunday using the speakers without the M20d mixer. I had vocals/guitar plugged into one and vocals/piano plugged into the other. It was the first time my piano player had used this set-up and he reported a rattle at certain frequencies.

 

I've just tried both of the speakers at home, putting the piano straight into the side mixing panel and taking care to make sure the input signals weren't peaking. With the main volume set to 12 o'clock both of the speakers had a rattle in the back panel when playing E note (165 Hz my guitar tuner says).

 

Hmm.

 

My wife thinks I should get a refund on everything too. Not good enough really! 


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#57 cruisinon2

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:38 AM

I would like to know the number of units sold vs the number of complaints of this issue. Is everyone that is experiencing this problem finding the issue at the same frequency? 

 

Me too...and I'm sure there are a bunch of people on here who'd be curious about that...yet somehow, I don't think it'll be on the cover of tomorrow's paper...

 

Having that info might make the difference between Line 6 getting another 850 bucks out of me, instead of EV or QSC

 

 

 

 


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#58 malcevansmusic

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:05 AM

Will it be a case of changing fan, or is it a more fundamental resonant frequency issue (the mass of the fan and the effective stiffness of its mounting points?) You might have to change the stiffness of the mounts, or change the spacing of the mounts or add mass to the fan to avoid this frequency...


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#59 silverhead

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:07 AM

The comment from Line 6 says they are looking at replacing the fan.


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#60 Digital-sound

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:09 AM

Me too...and I'm sure there are a bunch of people on here who'd be curious about that...yet somehow, I don't think it'll be on the cover of tomorrow's paper...

Having that info might make the difference between Line 6 getting another 850 bucks out of me, instead of EV or QSC

This is what I would like to know too. Can't tell on a forum. I remember the power supply in the studiolive boards was a huge issue that it SEEMED everyone had. But turned out, that compared to the units sold, it was just a very small fraction. They admitted there was an issue, but it wasn't worth a recall. They would repair them of course, but that was all.

I have a feeling the issue may be the same here. The only thing I think should be a bit different, is that EVERYONE that needs a unit fixed should get it fixed even if they have had it for well beyond their warranty period. That is, once Line6 solves the problem.
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#61 brianj402002

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:19 AM

That is pretty much why I asked the question. We don't really know the actual statistics. Not everyone that owns these are on this forum but the ones that are and have the issue are complaining (and rightfully so). We're not seeing the big picture here. If we are looking at say a 0.5 percent rate of return...that's not bad...if it is over 5 percent..then I can see this being an issue. Any product is susceptible to issues..especially this early in the game for them. I am a new supporter of Line 6 and will continue to be. Maybe someone from Line 6 can shed some light on these numbers?


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#62 cruisinon2

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:57 AM

This is what I would like to know too. Can't tell on a forum. I remember the power supply in the studiolive boards was a huge issue that it SEEMED everyone had. But turned out, that compared to the units sold, it was just a very small fraction. They admitted there was an issue, but it wasn't worth a recall. They would repair them of course, but that was all.

I have a feeling the issue may be the same here. The only thing I think should be a bit different, is that EVERYONE that needs a unit fixed should get it fixed even if they have had it for well beyond their warranty period. That is, once Line6 solves the problem.

 

Obviously one's perspective can get skewed looking at the forums...but there are several people above who have the issue with more than one speaker, and one guy has 6 units, all with this same problem. Seriously...what are the odds of that happening? I would have thought it would be nearly impossible.

 

Any one item could conceivably have issues, and I wouldn't write off an entire product line because of one problem. You always have to give any company the oportunity to make it right and fix the problem...That being said, If I purchased 6 of anything, and they all turned out to be defective...especially when they all exhibit the same exact defect, I would return them post-haste and move on...IMHO, one rattle is an anomaly, 6 is a design flaw.

 

 

 

 

 


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#63 velok

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:56 AM

Velok,

 

A video of the rattle doesn't have to be done in a negative way to shame Line 6. It could be done constructively and objectively so the rest of us that do not have this problem could see and hear what the problem is. There are a lot of really smart individuals in this forum & maybe one of them could come up with an idea to solve this problem.

 

I have had these same speakers, L3m's for over a year and haven't heard any rattles in them. But I have a different set up from you. Maybe with a video, a forum member can see something in your setup or situation and offer a suggestion or a change that would eliminate or reduce the undesired effect & still leave your sound or tone intact. For example, not that this example is an answer to your problem, say this rattle is like feedback problem in a setup or a room. We could try to find the offending frequency and notch it out, change the distance and orientation from the source to the speaker, lower the gain in the channel, etc. 

 

I know this is a very trying circumstance but if we can take a few deep breaths, step back and think objectively and scientifically, we can avoid a war and come up with a solution.

 

Thanks,

 

Tino

 

I don't think that notching out the offending frequency or reducing the gain on the channel is anything but a horrible stopgap solution.  It is the kind of solution that let's Line6 off the hook for a fix that they desperately need to address right away.  First of all it would probably require a relatively wide notch to get rid of this rattle and potentially in several places.  Why should I have to notch (widely) out my frequency spectrum and reduce the useable gain on my instrument, both of which adversely impact my sound, to stop a rattle in a brand new and very expensive speaker?  The loud rattle is so easy to reproduce at relatively low input levels that notching and level reduction are just not a viable solution.

 

I don't think anyone on this site requires a video to troubleshoot this problem.  The main purpose of a video, as TomTheGuitarGuy pointed out would be to convey the severity and number of people impacted by this issue to Line6.  Also to light a fire under the repair efforts.  YouTube can impact sales, unlike this forum where generally only longtime Line6 users (like myself) and people who are already stuck with broken speakers come.   As soon as people search on Line6 speakers they are going to see YouTube videos of it rattling.  Again, I am not ready to go there yet, although new customers who have not yet purchased this speaker do deserve a warning. If Line6 does not act in good faith I am sure the issue will receive more attention in other locations on the web, e.g. YouTube, than it has to date.  The one area that Line6 has not yet addressed is that they have made no promises of yet to the affected users.  Line 6 should be promising current users a fix when it is available, or a refund if it there is no fix forthcoming, or even a credit towards future equipment, while they research a fix.  Why are we customers being left to stress out in limbo?

 

Several people on this forum have provided the method for reproducing this rattle.  If any of the "smart individuals" (as you so rightly refer to them) who read those posts want to reproduce it on their own systems and then deconstruct this speaker and find the problem, they are welcome to do so.  I am not inclined to take all my brand new speakers apart.  As a matter of fact, I don't even like the idea of Line6 repairing my speaker when they do have a fix.  My preference when I buy something brand new is to have it work properly.  I don't want to have it taken apart, fixed, and then resealed by some inexperienced tech at the local repair shop within a few months of purchase.  Or maybe I have to pack it up and send it to Line6.  What fun that is.  How long will I be out my speakers while they are being repaired?  Not to speak of the fact that usually when I haul heavy equipment around I am being paid or donating my time to charity and have the satisfaction of performing.  I don't want to be turned into a moving company for Line6.  If I am going to do their QA for them I would like to be paid by Line6.  Clearly they have not been doing QA themselves.


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#64 velok

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:34 AM

Regarding the L2t/L2m speaker, we are aware of reports of the speaker rattling in very specific circumstances. As we understand it, the rattle may become noticeable specifically while playing a guitar or bass solo in a quiet environment when close to the speaker’s back panel. This rattle is caused by the fan and is typically not noticeable at stage volume. We have found this issue to appear in some, but not all, L2 series speakers. We cannot relate the fan rattling issue to a certain range of serial numbers.

 

We are currently evaluating a replacement fan that resolves this issue. However, this process requires a considerable amount of research and due diligence. Among other things, there are speed control, durability and firmware interaction requirements. This is a complex process that we are moving forward with, but unfortunately, we cannot commit to a timeline as to when this process will be complete.

 

Outside of this issue, the L2 speakers have proven to be very robust. However, if you are encountering any other issues with your L2 series speakers, we encourage you to contact Customer Service directly at www.line6.com/support.

 

We apologize for any inconvenience this issue may have caused those who’ve experienced it. We know that you, as our customers, rightfully have high expectations for the performance of our products. As we should, we will continue to drive toward a solution. We thank you for your patience and your patronage.

 

With all due respect I believe that this post by the Line6 rep, which carries the "Best Answer" imprint and is highlighted in green, should be edited to reflect the latest information known by both Line6 and its user community.  The first paragraph contains statements that both Line6 and we users now know are not correct (they were simply Tony Resses's best assumptions at the time it was posted, at least five of these assumptions have proven to be incorrect). This "Best Answer" post is still claiming the rattle is only on the L2 speakers (not true, it is on the L3 speakers as well). This post also claims the issue is "not noticeable at stage volume" (not true, it is very audible live).  Lastly the post claims the problem only impacts "guitar and bass solos in a quiet environment" (not true on three counts, there is at least one post from the user, "malcevansmusic" on this forum detailing their keyboard player,  not just their guitar or bass player, experiencing the issue while in a performance, not a "quiet environment" as well as all the other users who claim this is audible at live performance levels; additionally I can reproduce this rattle by playing chords, not just "solos").

 

I think this "Best Answer" post gives current users and prospective buyers an inaccurate summary of the current problem.  Line6Tony, please update your "Best Answer" post to reflect the current known state of affairs so that it truly is the "Best Answer".  Thank you!


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#65 tomtheguitarguy

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:08 PM

I don't think that notching out the offending frequency or reducing the gain on the channel is anything but a horrible stopgap solution.  It is the kind of solution that let's Line6 off the hook for a fix that they desperately need to address right away.  First of all it would probably require a relatively wide notch to get rid of this rattle and potentially in several places.  Why should I have to notch (widely) out my frequency spectrum and reduce the useable gain on my instrument, both of which adversely impact my sound, to stop a rattle in a brand new and very expensive speaker?  The loud rattle is so easy to reproduce at relatively low input levels that notching and level reduction are just not a viable solution.

 

I don't think anyone on this site requires a video to troubleshoot this problem.  The main purpose of a video, as TomTheGuitarGuy pointed out would be to convey the severity and number of people impacted by this issue to Line6.  Also to light a fire under the repair efforts.  YouTube can impact sales, unlike this forum where generally only longtime Line6 users (like myself) and people who are already stuck with broken speakers come.   As soon as people search on Line6 speakers they are going to see YouTube videos of it rattling.  Again, I am not ready to go there yet, although new customers who have not yet purchased this speaker do deserve a warning. If Line6 does not act in good faith I am sure the issue will receive more attention in other locations on the web, e.g. YouTube, than it has to date.  The one area that Line6 has not yet addressed is that they have made no promises of yet to the affected users.  Line 6 should be promising current users a fix when it is available, or a refund if it there is no fix forthcoming, or even a credit towards future equipment, while they research a fix.  Why are we customers being left to stress out in limbo?

 

Several people on this forum have provided the method for reproducing this rattle.  If any of the "smart individuals" (as you so rightly refer to them) who read those posts want to reproduce it on their own systems and then deconstruct this speaker and find the problem, they are welcome to do so.  I am not inclined to take all my brand new speakers apart.  As a matter of fact, I don't even like the idea of Line6 repairing my speaker when they do have a fix.  My preference when I buy something brand new is to have it work properly.  I don't want to have it taken apart, fixed, and then resealed by some inexperienced tech at the local repair shop within a few months of purchase.  Or maybe I have to pack it up and send it to Line6.  What fun that is.  How long will I be out my speakers while they are being repaired?  Not to speak of the fact that usually when I haul heavy equipment around I am being paid or donating my time to charity and have the satisfaction of performing.  I don't want to be turned into a moving company for Line6.  If I am going to do their QA for them I would like to be paid by Line6.  Clearly they have not been doing QA themselves.

 

I agree Velok - and up to now, there are NO YouTube videos that talk about a rattle in the Stagesource speakers (at least when I just searched YouTube for:  Line 6 stagesource rattle).  All that come up are reviews and demos (of which NONE of them talk about a rattle).

 

YouTube videos do affect sales - both positively and negatively.  Tons of positive product reviews and demos drive sales or inspire "GAS" - I know I've been afflicted by that particular "disease" after watching some videos.  And a lot of negative reviews have swayed me from parting with my hard earned money.  While my initial intent is not "shame", it seems that the only time companies seem to listen and/or take action is when it affects their bottom line.  We're not talking about $300 - $500 powered speakers (although even at that price, it's still hard earned to me) - we're talking about speakers that are 2x - 3x more expensive.

Much like I would expect a high end/high dollar vehicle (Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, etc) to work relatively problem free after turning the key, I want the high end sound equipment that I paid for with my hard earned sweat to work without issue.  But maybe I'm asking too much....


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#66 Digital-sound

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 12:07 AM

To quote Ron, a big "what he said"!

I am lucky not to be one of the customers needing help. But, it would sure look good, and make many feel better to see some sort of announcement indicating that all will be looked after when the problem is figured out. Regardless of purchase date.
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#67 Mavril

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 12:41 AM

I wish I could hold the faith that this is a batch issue and that there are units out there that are immune to the resonant frequency fan grind.

However I am more confident that the issue is more a design problem than a mere QA problem. If the fan vibrates against a piece of metal at one boxes resonant frequency I'm sure it will develop the same problem at another boxes resonant frequency (all things being equal). I am also assuming the same fan is in all speakers, mounted against a heatsink or metallic backing and controlled by the same smarts.

 

Like another contributer to this discussion, I would prefer minimal moving parts inside the unit (except for the cone itself) if the amp can stay cool enough. From my experience with fans (and I have serviced a number of musical electronics in a previous incarnation) they draw more dust than you would expect normally, eventually fail their bearings, can short out a power supply and can leave a device vulnerable when not working.

 

I would be prepared to suffer a heavier speaker if that would get a heatsink big enough to do the job and porting that used driver air displacement to move heat away from the amp.


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#68 cruisinon2

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 05:36 AM

I wish I could hold the faith that this is a batch issue and that there are units out there that are immune to the resonant frequency fan grind.

However I am more confident that the issue is more a design problem than a mere QA problem. If the fan vibrates against a piece of metal at one boxes resonant frequency I'm sure it will develop the same problem at another boxes resonant frequency (all things being equal). I am also assuming the same fan is in all speakers, mounted against a heatsink or metallic backing and controlled by the same smarts.

 

Like another contributer to this discussion, I would prefer minimal moving parts inside the unit (except for the cone itself) if the amp can stay cool enough. From my experience with fans (and I have serviced a number of musical electronics in a previous incarnation) they draw more dust than you would expect normally, eventually fail their bearings, can short out a power supply and can leave a device vulnerable when not working.

 

I would be prepared to suffer a heavier speaker if that would get a heatsink big enough to do the job and porting that used driver air displacement to move heat away from the amp.

 

I agree...too many people with multiple rattling units for it to be a random problem. It's a shame because I really wanted one...but this has spooked me a bit. Too much money to gamble on what could easily become a major hassel.


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#69 gordwait

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:47 AM

The M20d is not without the odd glitch and challenge as people report, so don't mistake me for a foaming at the mouth fanboy, but:

 

I have to say, the M20d preamp sound quality is excellent, I _like_ the M20d mic preamps as is thanks. 

 

Our band switched from a 16 channel rack mount Presonus firewire setup to the M20d, and one thing we didn't expect was how much better the M20d sounds.

I also use a small Allen and Heath mixer for small venue restaurant gigs, which is also a great sounding mixer, and Allen and Heath are known for good quality preamps. M20d holds its own as far as the audio path goes. 


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#70 Line6Tony

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:04 AM

Guys,

 

We're aware that some L2 model speakers are exhibiting a rattling noise in specific cases and applications. We have determined the root cause is the fan. We are aggressively working on a solution that will undergo extensive testing to ensure that:

 

·         the noise problem is addressed

·         the fan performs as expected

·         no new issues are introduced

 

Although we’ve made this a high priority, we can’t commit to a time frame until we have a qualified solution in house. Once that work is complete, customers who report the problem to Line 6 Customer Service will be given appropriate guidelines for repair. 

 

We will report a solution at the earliest opportunity, and we thank you for your continued patience.


Tony Reese
Line 6 Customer Support Manager


#71 LDBecker

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 02:23 PM

Line6Tony,

 

As someone pretty invested in Line 6 gear (StageScape M20d, 2 L3t's, 1 L3s, JTV 69, POD 500X - Yikes! That's a lot of stuff!), I am glad you are working on this. Thanks for letting us know. Please understand that, with the purchase by Yamaha, people wonder about the long-term support of the products. Anything you can do to ease minds and hearts is appreciated!

 

We also hope that updates continue on the product line - the M20d can use some refinements - How about adding the Variax tones into the M20d that are present in the speakers? Why, when we go for the full package, do we lose access to that amazing feature?

 

For the JTV guitars - maybe a Nylon String setting? You know you want to - and you've had it before.

 

For the POD500x - How about some StageSource/JTV-specific general tones to start us off with - maybe a great, clean acoustic tone, a clean strat, and so on. 99% of the stuff preloaded in the POD500x is interesting, but absolutely unusable to me. And the CustomTone stuff is a little hard to get a handle on - just getting an HD500 tone into an HD500x was interesting to figure out (not hard, but where does it say how? They're different formats!). Sorting out the good tones from the bad? And they would sound TOTALLY different on an L3t than they would on a DT25 or another non-FRFR amp. But if there were a few that we could load up to start us off? Some of us have real jobs and aren't full-time musicians. I'm really pretty new to the electric guitar (played acoustics for 45 years), and fairly new to multi-effects boxes (though I have a Yamaha Acoustic Stomp I use a lot).

 

Sorry for the rant - I mean it as supportive and encouraging, but also to let you all know there are real people out here using and enjoying your equipment!  Thanks also for taking care of the issues and problems that inevitably come up with anything like this...

 

Larry


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#72 tomtheguitarguy

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:45 AM

I just sent Line 6 a short video of my rattle/buzz.  It's uploading to YouTube and can be seen here:   http://youtu.be/R9zxsbDBHWU  after it finishes processing...

 

The video doesn't really do "justice" to the amount of buzz/rattle given that's it's a cellphone video...


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#73 Digital-sound

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:34 AM

Well, I don't know if I found the same issue, but seems remarkably similar. I have been using my L2m as a bass cab. No pre amp, just plugged straight in. I use a Warwick with active pickups so was able to get a very acceptable tone. Saves packing more gear to rehearsal or the bigger L3t. We practice 3 times recently. Each time, I had the L2m. We are four piece, with 2 guitars, accoustic drums, and a 3 vocals. We aren't loud, but we aren't quite. I set the L2m "volume" to MAX. I then used my volume on the bass to control level. The bass was plenty loud. No rattle at all as described. On the last rehearsal....last night...as we were winding up, I decided to try again to find the rattle that some claim is on every speaker. And they may be right.

So I turned my bass to full volume, (again, no preamp) and the L2m was also set at FULL. I hit the low B hard. Nothing. A few other notes, the same. But the F# produced the rattle. But it was LOUD. I think it may have happened on another note, but don't recall now. A person there said it was distorting the speaker. So I had to show him it was one particular note. A frequency. This only happened at the full volume. I didn't have to turn down very far to reach a point I couldn't create it. Definitely doesn't happen at low volumes.....again, at least on mine.

I am not concerned as I always use my front end speakers (l3t) with the subs and line 6 link so it is crossed over and the gain structure is correct. As I mentioned, I do use the L2m's as stage monitors with the bass running through them as well. No bass cab on stage. It isn't a lot running through them, but the "rattle" doesn't happen during our gigs.

Will definitely update if it gets worse, but right now, I conclude it isn't a problem for me still. I had to "hunt". Hopefully, it doesn't progress to a more serious state. Maybe it is something that does? Is it just a matter of finding a better way to secure the fan?
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#74 tudscamp

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 02:24 AM

Digital - sound,

                       You are mostly correct - It does seem to be centered in that low register (my piano causes it with D,E,F) but I have found that combinations of instruments and notes will cause it.  That shouldn't happen to you if you are just using it as a bass rig.     I have heard it really badly with harmonies....  Depending on the series of notes sung.  I don't believe it gets worse with age either.  Seems to just be there and that is it.  Also, I have never turned the speaker above half.  Or the input volume above half and the rattle is prominent.  I wouldn't want to hear it at full Volume.  

I still haven't decided how to proceed......  To return or not to return...  That is the question.  For now, I am sticking things out and waiting for "the fix".  MAy also try upgrading one L2 to an L3.....

Anyway - good luck and keep us posted on your situation should anything change


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#75 jericks97219

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:30 AM

I bought an L3T to use as an FRFR with my Pod HD 500, and discovered the rattle on day one, but thought it was a glitch until it starting appearing on just about any patch that was warm and bassy @ F#. Contact with the floor makes it worse. Clearly a resonant feedback issue, and I suspect it's an issue in all the speakers, especially when used without a sub at higher SPLs.

I am not sure why it's taken so long for line6 to respond and get the testing done, but they don't have endless dedicated resources to attack the many issues that arise with their products. The complexity of their gear comes with a downside. Having owned products going back to the ax2, I've seen many things take a long time to be corrected, and sometimes they just aren't corrected at all. I keep hoping that the next evolution of a given product will be better, but in many cases, we just trade one problem for another new one.

The reason I bought a "dream rig" was the promise of good tone across a spectrum of tones. The DT25 is probably the best amp they've produced outside of the vetta2, but getting it to be useable with the POD has proven to be a very time consuming adventure. I bought the L3t because I could not get a clean fender sound that was loud enough to be heard over drums. The L3t had that volume, but it came with a rattle that was a deal breaker. Very disappointing to say the least. My attempt to get a clean fender tone at typical fender volumes is not some weird esoteric situation. I've got over 4k tied up in a system that sits while I go back to my fender. I've read every guide, followed every bit of advice offered here and elsewhere, and yet I'm unable to get a good clean tone at gig volume, and high gain tones are still fizzy.

My point is, I have been a line 6 "fanboy" since the beginning and yet the ongoing struggle to get the gear to perform as advertised has finely eroded my goodwill for their products. I have always been drawn in by the promise, but generally let down by the reality.

Additionally, to hear some posters saying that they have the problem, but that it's no big deal or "only happens when..." Is somewhat frustrating to read. I agree that Line6 will never offer refunds, but they should consider buy-backs just as an automobile manufacturer might do with a product that they cannot correct. When a guy has several grand tied up in a system and it's rattling under nominal conditions, he's gonna get a little excited. I understand the anxiety caused by this issue. I think Line 6 is taking it a little too casually. Does the new fan work or not? If it's more then the fan, and they have to redesign the internals of the speaker, I would not be holding my breath for a solution anytime soon.

My solution was to return the product as I was still in my return period. If I had kept the speaker, it would be rattling away and would have ended up being a very expensive boat anchor.

My new pair of QSC k12s are not perfect, but they don't exhibit any symptoms that make it impossible to use the product in my application. Avoiding certain notes is clearly not an option for anyone having this issue.

From my point of view the best course of action is to return the product if you can and once they have posted a solution and decide if the Line 6 product is right for you at that time.
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#76 Jakeallen

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:43 AM

I know this is not a constructive comment but I have to say that if this was truly a "priority" we would have had a solution by now.  I've had 2 L2Ts offline for 6-months because of this fan rattle.  If Line6 cared about customer satisfaction on the measures of quality, durability and reliability, then they would have truly prioritized this fix.   I highly doubt that the engineers have dropped everything (including the energy and focus on the Amplifi).  THAT would have been the definition of priority and we would have had a fix months ago.  I would like to know how Line6 intends to PROACTIVELY notify its customers and authorized service centers on the status of this fix. I shouldn't have to "check in" to this forum only to see that there is no update.  


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#77 TheRealZap

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Posted 07 May 2014 - 08:54 AM

If you've submitted a support ticket, you will surely be notified as soon as they have a path forward.

they will surely announce it here as well, but if everything is registered on the site and you have a support ticket you'll likely hear via email.

 

I know this is not a constructive comment but I have to say that if this was truly a "priority" we would have had a solution by now.  I've had 2 L2Ts offline for 6-months because of this fan rattle.  If Line6 cared about customer satisfaction on the measures of quality, durability and reliability, then they would have truly prioritized this fix.   I highly doubt that the engineers have dropped everything (including the energy and focus on the Amplifi).  THAT would have been the definition of priority and we would have had a fix months ago.  I would like to know how Line6 intends to PROACTIVELY notify its customers and authorized service centers on the status of this fix. I shouldn't have to "check in" to this forum only to see that there is no update.  


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#78 mncanuck

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:09 PM

I hate to "pile on" with regards to the L2M, but, I just sent 2 back to the retailer.  I have an M20d with an L3t and L3m for mains and I am extremely happy with the sound quality for our band, keyboards alone or electric/acoustic guitar and vocals.  I was hoping to continue to take advantage of the L6 link system, so, I purchased 2 L2m's to be used as monitors.  Unfortunately, I was extremely disappointed in the quality of sound compared to the L3's, especially for keyboards.  The acoustic piano and electric piano (rhodes and wurlitzer) sounded very "tinny" on the upper register and muddy in the lower register - with the obligatory rattle when playing E2 in the bass.  The upper register sound was so poor that it actually hurt to listen to the keyboard - even in our band mix.  The sound of the electric pianos was extremely "clipped" such that half the time, I was only able to hear the percussive sound and not the actual note at all.  I tried various eq settings using the monitor tweak in the M20d as well as on the back of the L2m (PA/reference, monitor and keyboard) but the sound did not improve - the eq definitely changed with the different settings - just not resulting in a better sound.  I also plugged them into the main outs on the M20d using an XLR cable but that didn't help either.  I was really surprised as even my 10 year-old Event true reference monitors with a 6" speaker and tweeter, which were much cheaper than the L2m's, provided higher quality sound.

 

I recorded an A/B comparison between the L3t/m and L2m's, but, only had time to do this quickly with my iPhone 5 w/ the Yamaha recording app, so, the quality isn't the best.  Having to return the L2m's (and renew my search for powered monitors) as well as seeing the M20d advertised for less than half of the price that I paid for it just last year definitely provided for a downer of a weekend.  But, overall, I still appreciate the versatility of this system.


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#79 Line6Tony

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:51 PM   Best Answer

We’re glad to announce that we’ve tested and approved a replacement fan for the L2 speaker. At the end of this week, our authorized service centers will be able to order the replacement fan and perform the repair. Alternatively, Line 6 can perform the repair if an RMA is generated. As both scenarios offer the repair under our three-year warranty, please ensure you can furnish a copy of your proof of purchase, a requirement for warranty service. Please see our Service Page for repair process details.

 

Thanks again for your patience and your patronage.


Tony Reese
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#80 kjellarne

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:23 AM

Really good news! Do you know anything more about the rattle noise in L3 speakers? Is it used the same type of fan in the L3 series as in L2, so that the problem may also apply to these?


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