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L2t Vibration And Rattling.... Noise

l2t vibration noise rattle bad

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#61 brianj402002

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:19 AM

That is pretty much why I asked the question. We don't really know the actual statistics. Not everyone that owns these are on this forum but the ones that are and have the issue are complaining (and rightfully so). We're not seeing the big picture here. If we are looking at say a 0.5 percent rate of return...that's not bad...if it is over 5 percent..then I can see this being an issue. Any product is susceptible to issues..especially this early in the game for them. I am a new supporter of Line 6 and will continue to be. Maybe someone from Line 6 can shed some light on these numbers?


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#62 cruisinon2

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:57 AM

This is what I would like to know too. Can't tell on a forum. I remember the power supply in the studiolive boards was a huge issue that it SEEMED everyone had. But turned out, that compared to the units sold, it was just a very small fraction. They admitted there was an issue, but it wasn't worth a recall. They would repair them of course, but that was all.

I have a feeling the issue may be the same here. The only thing I think should be a bit different, is that EVERYONE that needs a unit fixed should get it fixed even if they have had it for well beyond their warranty period. That is, once Line6 solves the problem.

 

Obviously one's perspective can get skewed looking at the forums...but there are several people above who have the issue with more than one speaker, and one guy has 6 units, all with this same problem. Seriously...what are the odds of that happening? I would have thought it would be nearly impossible.

 

Any one item could conceivably have issues, and I wouldn't write off an entire product line because of one problem. You always have to give any company the oportunity to make it right and fix the problem...That being said, If I purchased 6 of anything, and they all turned out to be defective...especially when they all exhibit the same exact defect, I would return them post-haste and move on...IMHO, one rattle is an anomaly, 6 is a design flaw.

 

 

 

 

 


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#63 velok

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:56 AM

Velok,

 

A video of the rattle doesn't have to be done in a negative way to shame Line 6. It could be done constructively and objectively so the rest of us that do not have this problem could see and hear what the problem is. There are a lot of really smart individuals in this forum & maybe one of them could come up with an idea to solve this problem.

 

I have had these same speakers, L3m's for over a year and haven't heard any rattles in them. But I have a different set up from you. Maybe with a video, a forum member can see something in your setup or situation and offer a suggestion or a change that would eliminate or reduce the undesired effect & still leave your sound or tone intact. For example, not that this example is an answer to your problem, say this rattle is like feedback problem in a setup or a room. We could try to find the offending frequency and notch it out, change the distance and orientation from the source to the speaker, lower the gain in the channel, etc. 

 

I know this is a very trying circumstance but if we can take a few deep breaths, step back and think objectively and scientifically, we can avoid a war and come up with a solution.

 

Thanks,

 

Tino

 

I don't think that notching out the offending frequency or reducing the gain on the channel is anything but a horrible stopgap solution.  It is the kind of solution that let's Line6 off the hook for a fix that they desperately need to address right away.  First of all it would probably require a relatively wide notch to get rid of this rattle and potentially in several places.  Why should I have to notch (widely) out my frequency spectrum and reduce the useable gain on my instrument, both of which adversely impact my sound, to stop a rattle in a brand new and very expensive speaker?  The loud rattle is so easy to reproduce at relatively low input levels that notching and level reduction are just not a viable solution.

 

I don't think anyone on this site requires a video to troubleshoot this problem.  The main purpose of a video, as TomTheGuitarGuy pointed out would be to convey the severity and number of people impacted by this issue to Line6.  Also to light a fire under the repair efforts.  YouTube can impact sales, unlike this forum where generally only longtime Line6 users (like myself) and people who are already stuck with broken speakers come.   As soon as people search on Line6 speakers they are going to see YouTube videos of it rattling.  Again, I am not ready to go there yet, although new customers who have not yet purchased this speaker do deserve a warning. If Line6 does not act in good faith I am sure the issue will receive more attention in other locations on the web, e.g. YouTube, than it has to date.  The one area that Line6 has not yet addressed is that they have made no promises of yet to the affected users.  Line 6 should be promising current users a fix when it is available, or a refund if it there is no fix forthcoming, or even a credit towards future equipment, while they research a fix.  Why are we customers being left to stress out in limbo?

 

Several people on this forum have provided the method for reproducing this rattle.  If any of the "smart individuals" (as you so rightly refer to them) who read those posts want to reproduce it on their own systems and then deconstruct this speaker and find the problem, they are welcome to do so.  I am not inclined to take all my brand new speakers apart.  As a matter of fact, I don't even like the idea of Line6 repairing my speaker when they do have a fix.  My preference when I buy something brand new is to have it work properly.  I don't want to have it taken apart, fixed, and then resealed by some inexperienced tech at the local repair shop within a few months of purchase.  Or maybe I have to pack it up and send it to Line6.  What fun that is.  How long will I be out my speakers while they are being repaired?  Not to speak of the fact that usually when I haul heavy equipment around I am being paid or donating my time to charity and have the satisfaction of performing.  I don't want to be turned into a moving company for Line6.  If I am going to do their QA for them I would like to be paid by Line6.  Clearly they have not been doing QA themselves.


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#64 velok

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 09:34 AM

Regarding the L2t/L2m speaker, we are aware of reports of the speaker rattling in very specific circumstances. As we understand it, the rattle may become noticeable specifically while playing a guitar or bass solo in a quiet environment when close to the speaker’s back panel. This rattle is caused by the fan and is typically not noticeable at stage volume. We have found this issue to appear in some, but not all, L2 series speakers. We cannot relate the fan rattling issue to a certain range of serial numbers.

 

We are currently evaluating a replacement fan that resolves this issue. However, this process requires a considerable amount of research and due diligence. Among other things, there are speed control, durability and firmware interaction requirements. This is a complex process that we are moving forward with, but unfortunately, we cannot commit to a timeline as to when this process will be complete.

 

Outside of this issue, the L2 speakers have proven to be very robust. However, if you are encountering any other issues with your L2 series speakers, we encourage you to contact Customer Service directly at www.line6.com/support.

 

We apologize for any inconvenience this issue may have caused those who’ve experienced it. We know that you, as our customers, rightfully have high expectations for the performance of our products. As we should, we will continue to drive toward a solution. We thank you for your patience and your patronage.

 

With all due respect I believe that this post by the Line6 rep, which carries the "Best Answer" imprint and is highlighted in green, should be edited to reflect the latest information known by both Line6 and its user community.  The first paragraph contains statements that both Line6 and we users now know are not correct (they were simply Tony Resses's best assumptions at the time it was posted, at least five of these assumptions have proven to be incorrect). This "Best Answer" post is still claiming the rattle is only on the L2 speakers (not true, it is on the L3 speakers as well). This post also claims the issue is "not noticeable at stage volume" (not true, it is very audible live).  Lastly the post claims the problem only impacts "guitar and bass solos in a quiet environment" (not true on three counts, there is at least one post from the user, "malcevansmusic" on this forum detailing their keyboard player,  not just their guitar or bass player, experiencing the issue while in a performance, not a "quiet environment" as well as all the other users who claim this is audible at live performance levels; additionally I can reproduce this rattle by playing chords, not just "solos").

 

I think this "Best Answer" post gives current users and prospective buyers an inaccurate summary of the current problem.  Line6Tony, please update your "Best Answer" post to reflect the current known state of affairs so that it truly is the "Best Answer".  Thank you!


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#65 tomtheguitarguy

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:08 PM

I don't think that notching out the offending frequency or reducing the gain on the channel is anything but a horrible stopgap solution.  It is the kind of solution that let's Line6 off the hook for a fix that they desperately need to address right away.  First of all it would probably require a relatively wide notch to get rid of this rattle and potentially in several places.  Why should I have to notch (widely) out my frequency spectrum and reduce the useable gain on my instrument, both of which adversely impact my sound, to stop a rattle in a brand new and very expensive speaker?  The loud rattle is so easy to reproduce at relatively low input levels that notching and level reduction are just not a viable solution.

 

I don't think anyone on this site requires a video to troubleshoot this problem.  The main purpose of a video, as TomTheGuitarGuy pointed out would be to convey the severity and number of people impacted by this issue to Line6.  Also to light a fire under the repair efforts.  YouTube can impact sales, unlike this forum where generally only longtime Line6 users (like myself) and people who are already stuck with broken speakers come.   As soon as people search on Line6 speakers they are going to see YouTube videos of it rattling.  Again, I am not ready to go there yet, although new customers who have not yet purchased this speaker do deserve a warning. If Line6 does not act in good faith I am sure the issue will receive more attention in other locations on the web, e.g. YouTube, than it has to date.  The one area that Line6 has not yet addressed is that they have made no promises of yet to the affected users.  Line 6 should be promising current users a fix when it is available, or a refund if it there is no fix forthcoming, or even a credit towards future equipment, while they research a fix.  Why are we customers being left to stress out in limbo?

 

Several people on this forum have provided the method for reproducing this rattle.  If any of the "smart individuals" (as you so rightly refer to them) who read those posts want to reproduce it on their own systems and then deconstruct this speaker and find the problem, they are welcome to do so.  I am not inclined to take all my brand new speakers apart.  As a matter of fact, I don't even like the idea of Line6 repairing my speaker when they do have a fix.  My preference when I buy something brand new is to have it work properly.  I don't want to have it taken apart, fixed, and then resealed by some inexperienced tech at the local repair shop within a few months of purchase.  Or maybe I have to pack it up and send it to Line6.  What fun that is.  How long will I be out my speakers while they are being repaired?  Not to speak of the fact that usually when I haul heavy equipment around I am being paid or donating my time to charity and have the satisfaction of performing.  I don't want to be turned into a moving company for Line6.  If I am going to do their QA for them I would like to be paid by Line6.  Clearly they have not been doing QA themselves.

 

I agree Velok - and up to now, there are NO YouTube videos that talk about a rattle in the Stagesource speakers (at least when I just searched YouTube for:  Line 6 stagesource rattle).  All that come up are reviews and demos (of which NONE of them talk about a rattle).

 

YouTube videos do affect sales - both positively and negatively.  Tons of positive product reviews and demos drive sales or inspire "GAS" - I know I've been afflicted by that particular "disease" after watching some videos.  And a lot of negative reviews have swayed me from parting with my hard earned money.  While my initial intent is not "shame", it seems that the only time companies seem to listen and/or take action is when it affects their bottom line.  We're not talking about $300 - $500 powered speakers (although even at that price, it's still hard earned to me) - we're talking about speakers that are 2x - 3x more expensive.

Much like I would expect a high end/high dollar vehicle (Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Cadillac, etc) to work relatively problem free after turning the key, I want the high end sound equipment that I paid for with my hard earned sweat to work without issue.  But maybe I'm asking too much....


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#66 Digital-sound

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 12:07 AM

To quote Ron, a big "what he said"!

I am lucky not to be one of the customers needing help. But, it would sure look good, and make many feel better to see some sort of announcement indicating that all will be looked after when the problem is figured out. Regardless of purchase date.
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#67 Mavril

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 12:41 AM

I wish I could hold the faith that this is a batch issue and that there are units out there that are immune to the resonant frequency fan grind.

However I am more confident that the issue is more a design problem than a mere QA problem. If the fan vibrates against a piece of metal at one boxes resonant frequency I'm sure it will develop the same problem at another boxes resonant frequency (all things being equal). I am also assuming the same fan is in all speakers, mounted against a heatsink or metallic backing and controlled by the same smarts.

 

Like another contributer to this discussion, I would prefer minimal moving parts inside the unit (except for the cone itself) if the amp can stay cool enough. From my experience with fans (and I have serviced a number of musical electronics in a previous incarnation) they draw more dust than you would expect normally, eventually fail their bearings, can short out a power supply and can leave a device vulnerable when not working.

 

I would be prepared to suffer a heavier speaker if that would get a heatsink big enough to do the job and porting that used driver air displacement to move heat away from the amp.


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#68 cruisinon2

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 05:36 AM

I wish I could hold the faith that this is a batch issue and that there are units out there that are immune to the resonant frequency fan grind.

However I am more confident that the issue is more a design problem than a mere QA problem. If the fan vibrates against a piece of metal at one boxes resonant frequency I'm sure it will develop the same problem at another boxes resonant frequency (all things being equal). I am also assuming the same fan is in all speakers, mounted against a heatsink or metallic backing and controlled by the same smarts.

 

Like another contributer to this discussion, I would prefer minimal moving parts inside the unit (except for the cone itself) if the amp can stay cool enough. From my experience with fans (and I have serviced a number of musical electronics in a previous incarnation) they draw more dust than you would expect normally, eventually fail their bearings, can short out a power supply and can leave a device vulnerable when not working.

 

I would be prepared to suffer a heavier speaker if that would get a heatsink big enough to do the job and porting that used driver air displacement to move heat away from the amp.

 

I agree...too many people with multiple rattling units for it to be a random problem. It's a shame because I really wanted one...but this has spooked me a bit. Too much money to gamble on what could easily become a major hassel.


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#69 gordwait

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 06:47 AM

The M20d is not without the odd glitch and challenge as people report, so don't mistake me for a foaming at the mouth fanboy, but:

 

I have to say, the M20d preamp sound quality is excellent, I _like_ the M20d mic preamps as is thanks. 

 

Our band switched from a 16 channel rack mount Presonus firewire setup to the M20d, and one thing we didn't expect was how much better the M20d sounds.

I also use a small Allen and Heath mixer for small venue restaurant gigs, which is also a great sounding mixer, and Allen and Heath are known for good quality preamps. M20d holds its own as far as the audio path goes. 


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#70 Line6Tony

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:04 AM

Guys,

 

We're aware that some L2 model speakers are exhibiting a rattling noise in specific cases and applications. We have determined the root cause is the fan. We are aggressively working on a solution that will undergo extensive testing to ensure that:

 

·         the noise problem is addressed

·         the fan performs as expected

·         no new issues are introduced

 

Although we’ve made this a high priority, we can’t commit to a time frame until we have a qualified solution in house. Once that work is complete, customers who report the problem to Line 6 Customer Service will be given appropriate guidelines for repair. 

 

We will report a solution at the earliest opportunity, and we thank you for your continued patience.


Tony Reese
Line 6 Customer Support Manager


#71 LDBecker

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 02:23 PM

Line6Tony,

 

As someone pretty invested in Line 6 gear (StageScape M20d, 2 L3t's, 1 L3s, JTV 69, POD 500X - Yikes! That's a lot of stuff!), I am glad you are working on this. Thanks for letting us know. Please understand that, with the purchase by Yamaha, people wonder about the long-term support of the products. Anything you can do to ease minds and hearts is appreciated!

 

We also hope that updates continue on the product line - the M20d can use some refinements - How about adding the Variax tones into the M20d that are present in the speakers? Why, when we go for the full package, do we lose access to that amazing feature?

 

For the JTV guitars - maybe a Nylon String setting? You know you want to - and you've had it before.

 

For the POD500x - How about some StageSource/JTV-specific general tones to start us off with - maybe a great, clean acoustic tone, a clean strat, and so on. 99% of the stuff preloaded in the POD500x is interesting, but absolutely unusable to me. And the CustomTone stuff is a little hard to get a handle on - just getting an HD500 tone into an HD500x was interesting to figure out (not hard, but where does it say how? They're different formats!). Sorting out the good tones from the bad? And they would sound TOTALLY different on an L3t than they would on a DT25 or another non-FRFR amp. But if there were a few that we could load up to start us off? Some of us have real jobs and aren't full-time musicians. I'm really pretty new to the electric guitar (played acoustics for 45 years), and fairly new to multi-effects boxes (though I have a Yamaha Acoustic Stomp I use a lot).

 

Sorry for the rant - I mean it as supportive and encouraging, but also to let you all know there are real people out here using and enjoying your equipment!  Thanks also for taking care of the issues and problems that inevitably come up with anything like this...

 

Larry


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#72 tomtheguitarguy

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 10:45 AM

I just sent Line 6 a short video of my rattle/buzz.  It's uploading to YouTube and can be seen here:   http://youtu.be/R9zxsbDBHWU  after it finishes processing...

 

The video doesn't really do "justice" to the amount of buzz/rattle given that's it's a cellphone video...


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