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#1 stuwend

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:48 AM

So just wondering why combo or powerstack output modes on hd500 via l6 link to dt50/25 is the thing to do and turning off cab modelling.To my ears that all sounds thin and fizzy can someone explain why and how or do a youtube clip in how to get a good tone and show step by step to creating a great clean and rock/high gain tone patch and go through different scenarios how to get that tone.Just wanting to get the most out of my hd500 and dt50 .I do pre amp models with cab on in studio/direct mode and when switch to the other mentioned modes doesn't sound any good,have created and used others created patches that have sounded good in my room but when gigging they all sound different and sometimes horrible and when on studio/direct mode my 4x12 cab is really boomy and have to back off and sometimes zero'd the basses.And does active or passive pickups matter to the tone.Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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#2 TheRealZap

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:52 AM

when using L6LINK you dont have to set the output mode it will set automatically based on what's plugged in.

you DO NOT typically want to use "no cab" with the DT amps... that will hose your sound up and leave you confused... all the DT amp models use cabs if you're looking for an authentic sound...

 

you can of course change any of that if it pleases you.... but ideally you wouldn't.


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#3 Brazzy

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:05 AM

when using L6LINK you dont have to set the output mode it will set automatically based on what's plugged in.

you DO NOT typically want to use "no cab" with the DT amps... that will hose your sound up and leave you confused... all the DT amp models use cabs if you're looking for an authentic sound...

 

you can of course change any of that if it pleases you.... but ideally you wouldn't.

 

Oh Yeah, I agree here wholeheartedly.


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#4 stumblinman

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:39 AM

Whether building your own patches or using downloaded ones, you will always need to adjust them for your own rig, at gig volume. Every cab and guitar sounds different, so chances are you need to put in some time noting what sounds odd when you are playing in the mix. Make adjustments during or after the song during practice, and try it again during the next song.

Also, in my opinion, studio/direct isn't the way to go if you play live. It adds an extra couple layers of EQ between the cab parameters, mic selection and "fake room" sound that can make it much harder to dial in a good live tone. Also, try some full models, not just pre's. There's a lot of tasty tones if you tweak in the proper environment for how you will use the Pod.

Can't tweak in your bedroom an expect it to sound right at gig volume. Fletcher-Munson curve and all that.


So just wondering why combo or powerstack output modes on hd500 via l6 link to dt50/25 is the thing to do and turning off cab modelling.To my ears that all sounds thin and fizzy can someone explain why and how or do a youtube clip in how to get a good tone and show step by step to creating a great clean and rock/high gain tone patch and go through different scenarios how to get that tone.Just wanting to get the most out of my hd500 and dt50 .I do pre amp models with cab on in studio/direct mode and when switch to the other mentioned modes doesn't sound any good,have created and used others created patches that have sounded good in my room but when gigging they all sound different and sometimes horrible and when on studio/direct mode my 4x12 cab is really boomy and have to back off and sometimes zero'd the basses.And does active or passive pickups matter to the tone.Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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#5 ColonelForbin

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:41 AM

So just wondering why combo or powerstack output modes on hd500 via l6 link to dt50/25 is the thing to do and turning off cab modelling

 

Just to clarify: combo/poweramp and stack/poweramp do not turn of the cabinet modelling; they only turn off the microphone modelling. And yes, those modes when listened to via direct recording, or through a full range / flat response PA speaker or similar monitor will sound 'fizzy', 'buzzy', etc. - especially when using stomps, drive, distortion, etc.

 

And yeah, the studio/direct mode is the ideal mode for sending direct signal from the HD500 to a mixer or monitor, but it's not ideal for use as your sound going to an amplifier, and that boominess / low end boost can be overwhelming.

 

Try simplifying your approach somewhat, in terms of what you are doing.

 

Set up an HD500 patch with no FX, just an amp model - maybe start with the Plexi.

 

Set up your gear, use the L6Link, etc.

 

Now, imagine you are plugged into a Plexi, and dial in the gain, eq, and volume. Get a tone that sounds good to your ears; it should sound good; at this point, shouldn't sound fizzy or weird or anything, and if it does, something else is wrong.

 

When I first got my HD500, as an upgrade to the X3Live, I literally just played for hours, auditioning only the amp models, before I even tried a single FX block. Even now, I create very minimalist patches, with as few FX possible, since the purity of the amp tones is so amazing.

 

Anyhow, from there, put a '63 spring reverb into the post section, put a dynamic delay after it. I usually make those FS3 and FS4.

Put a compressor up front, boost comp or tube comp, I make that FS1, and put a distortion after the compressor, I make that FS2. Put a wah first in the signal chain, make sure it's set to EXP1/2 for control and toggle/on/off.

 

Audition each effect one at a time, tweak the levels and settings - most of the default settings are good, but they will all require some amount of adjustment. When you have each FX block sounding good, levels balanced, on or off, no radical volume or tone shifts, try turning on all the FX blocks. Make sure doing that doesn't squash your sound or triple your volume.

 

Save that patch. Then save-as into the other patch blocks in that bank. Go to the newly saved copies of your patch (or do all of this with HD edit) and for each one, select a different amp model. Try the tweed, the blackface, the Marshall Park, the SLO - whatever you like.

 

Repeat that first part, where you adjust the amp settings so each patch is approximately volume leveled, and adjust so that you can select patch A,B,C,D - each one with all FX off, but with those four FX assigned as FS1,2,3,4.

 

When you are happier with the sound of each amp model by itself, then mess with the FX settings so that each amp model sounds good with those same four FX blocks.

 

Whenever possible, try to imagine the amp you are using in the model as a 'real' amp somewhere. The DT should sound like that amp. The issue with hearing studio/direct is you are adding multiple variables, and each amp model has different settings, primarily the mic models. Some of the mic defaults sound louder / quieter than others, some will be boomy, some lots of treble, etc. A condensor mic will behave differently than an SM57. A dynamic mic will sound different than a  ribbon mic.

 

The reason you go into combo or stack/poweramp mode, is to disengage the mic modelling. That mode allows your HD and DT to focus on replicating that particular amp model and all it's correspsonding nuance, without also simulating the room and microphone.

 

Imagine it like this: In Studio/Direct mode, your amp is in another room, with a mic on it, and you are in the control room, behind glass walls, and the mixer monitor speakers are what you are hearing. Essentially a recording / front of house mix sound. Your amp + A Microphone, in a room.

 

In combo/stack poweramp mode, you are in the room with your amp, and it's next to you. In this mode, the HD and the DT are transforming your DT into a Fender, or a Vox, or a Plexi, etc. The XLR out from the DT is now handling the idea of 'mic' and 'room', whereas what is coming out of your actual speaker is the sound of an amp. The direct signal from the XLR out of the HD500 in this mode will not sound good, the XLR out from the DT will sound good -it's designed to emulate the cab+room+mic.

 

The reason I say 'imagine' this, is by visualizing the difference between a small 1x12 Gibson combo, and a 4x12 Mesa Boogie is massive, in actual volume, and EQ. You want to pretend you are plugged into the amp that the HD+DT is trying to emulate.

 

For what it's worth, try an amp model you like, do the copy to four patch idea - then instead of changing the amp model, just change the cabinet for each of those four patches. Again, somehow the poweramp modes emulate cabinet response, while not emulating microphone response - so that EQ which you tweaked to perfection on one cabinet choice, will sound radically different on another cabinet choice.

 

I've found that the key for me to get a tone I can play music with, rather than just play with the patch editing, is to narrow down my choices to just a few amps and effects, and manipulate patches with these limited selections. Once you are happy / familiar with how those amps and all their options respond, then you can delve deeper into what the HD+DT has to offer. Just randomly switching from amp model to amp model, you will find drastic volume differences, which when taken in the "real world" context of the actual amps which Line6 used to create these models, makes perfect sense.

 

Put a VOX 25watt 1x12 next to a 100watt 4x12 JCM, and yeah, one is going to be way louder than the other!

 

Last, but never least: Have Fun!


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#6 cruisinon2

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:45 AM

So just wondering why combo or powerstack output modes on hd500 via l6 link to dt50/25 is the thing to do and turning off cab modelling.To my ears that all sounds thin and fizzy can someone explain why and how or do a youtube clip in how to get a good tone and show step by step to creating a great clean and rock/high gain tone patch and go through different scenarios how to get that tone.Just wanting to get the most out of my hd500 and dt50 .I do pre amp models with cab on in studio/direct mode and when switch to the other mentioned modes doesn't sound any good,have created and used others created patches that have sounded good in my room but when gigging they all sound different and sometimes horrible and when on studio/direct mode my 4x12 cab is really boomy and have to back off and sometimes zero'd the basses.And does active or passive pickups matter to the tone.Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

So just wondering why combo or powerstack output modes on hd500 via l6 link to dt50/25 is the thing to do and turning off cab modelling.To my ears that all sounds thin and fizzy can someone explain why and how or do a youtube clip in how to get a good tone and show step by step to creating a great clean and rock/high gain tone patch and go through different scenarios how to get that tone.Just wanting to get the most out of my hd500 and dt50 .I do pre amp models with cab on in studio/direct mode and when switch to the other mentioned modes doesn't sound any good,have created and used others created patches that have sounded good in my room but when gigging they all sound different and sometimes horrible and when on studio/direct mode my 4x12 cab is really boomy and have to back off and sometimes zero'd the basses.And does active or passive pickups matter to the tone.Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



You're not alone...I'm not using a DT series amp, but it has been my experience that using any of the amp models without cab sims produces tones that are downright horrid. Not sure why this is, as Ivve used other preamp/fx units, which had no modeling capabilities at all thru the same power amp/cab set-up, and didn't have a problem getting a decent tone, so who knows?I aboslutely cannot get a tone I like without the cab models. But with either the pre only, or full amp models running studio/direct out, I'm quite happy.
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#7 ColonelForbin

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:09 AM

 it has been my experience that using any of the amp models without cab sims produces tones that are downright horrid.

 

Yes, that makes sense - though to clarify, simply placing the HD500 into non-Studio/Direct doesn't in of itself disengage the cab modelling, it just turns off the mic modelling.

 

I suppose it's worth noting, that if you are not using the L6Link, IE, with non DT amps, the way to go - in my experience - is always run the output from the HD to the FX RETURN of whatever amp you are using.

 

This ensures that you will bypass any preamp portions of your amp, and give you the best shot at making it all sound right.

 

Here's how I imagine it, when I am adjusting tones: Studio/Direct is your amp in another room, with a mic on it. You are in the control room, hearing the signal of your amp + microphone + room. You can see your amp, but it's in that room behind glass walls, and you are in another room.

 

Whereas, the combo/poweramp and stack/poweramp modes are you in the same room as your amp. For example, prior to my recent DT25 purchase, I used a few 1x12 combos, all solid state, two Fenders and a Marshall, in various combinations from 2010 to now.

 

I liked switching between studio/direct and combo/poweramp, to 'audition' the amp as if it were right next to me, dial it in, then switch to studio/direct, and scroll through the mic models, until I head a setting that did a good job of rendering what I wanted to hear for a recording signal or live / monitor direct signal.

 

I think what messes people up, is the combo and stack poweramp settings are very different from the combo/stack 'front' settings, which are all radically different than the studio/direct.

 

There is a term which applies well here: suspension of disbelief.

 

To get this gear to work and sound right, you have to suspend your disbelief. Imagine your amp is actually a Fender Blackface, or Marshall Plexi, or whatever the HD amp model is set as. Picture the distinction of being in a room with a 4x12 half stack vs a low-watt 1x12.

 

Otherwise, it's just a bunch of random settings which have no 'real world' correlation. Once you start to 'hear' how each amp model behaves, and what all the controls do - for example, the Divided/13 amp model has TWO gain settings, it turns one of the tone knobs into a gain control - you'd have to know that prior to tweaking the settings, otherwise you'd expect you are controlling one variable, when in fact, you are adjusting some other setting.


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#8 ColonelForbin

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:21 AM

I suppose one other item to mention, is when using the DT in full power mode, the reason you'd want to go with the "PRE" amp models, and not the "FULL" amp models, is because the pre models allow the DT to process the amps as preamp only, and allows the Bogner tube amp portion of the rig to create actual power amp characteristics, rather than digitally modelled versions of those components. Essentially, anyone using a non-DT amp, would want to select the full amp models, then run it in combo or stack poweramp mode, using the 1/4" out to the 1/4" FX RETURN of thier amplifier.

 

The combo front and stack front modes are for instances when you cannot or do not want to plug the HD output into the FX return of the amp you are using. The front jack of any guitar amp is designed to take a guitar signal, and it shelves the EQ in such a way to render a pleasing tone via the speaker. For example, if you plug a line level signal, like a keyboard, into the front jack of a guitar amp, it probably will sound horrible. That's because the low end is being filtered and the high and mid frequencies are being boosted.

 

Which is why the POD in non-studio/direct modes sounds weird when going into recordings, main mixes, etc. - it's designed to be heard through the guitar amp cabinet, not a full range / flat response speaker system.


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#9 cruisinon2

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 10:44 AM

 Essentially, anyone using a non-DT amp, would want to select the full amp models, then run it in combo or stack poweramp mode, using the 1/4" out to the 1/4" FX RETURN of thier amplifier.

 

 

Well I set everything up completely "wrong", lol. I run the 500x through a Carvin 100w tube power amp and a 25th Anniv. Marshall 4x12, leaving the output on studio/direct. Sometimes a preamp only, but mostly full amp models. All I have to go by are my ears...any other output setting, and I've tried them all, and the amp screetches like a f***ed cat.


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#10 radatats

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 02:05 PM

not sure if it was mentioned but you have no choice in the matter if you are using L6 link to your DT.  It will switch no matter what setting you have selected as soon as the DT powers on so don't worry about it.  That is why we have to build separate patches for DT and FRFR.  You can't use Studio Direct with L6 link.


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#11 ColonelForbin

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 02:11 PM

Well I set everything up completely "wrong", lol. I run the 500x through a Carvin 100w tube power amp and a 25th Anniv. Marshall 4x12, leaving the output on studio/direct.

 

Well, not necessarily wrong - just good to think about it in terms of what the amp is trying to do with the sound, vs what the HD500 is doing *to* the sound.

 

In this case, if I understand what you mean - is that amp something like a Carvin TS100? In that case, I'd imagine it doesn't have an FX loop. You are in undiscovered country on this one.. I would guess there is a signal level or gain mismatch going on; not sure what is happening to be totally honest with ya.

 

If I had to guess, something is happening that is over boosting the high freqs which are going out of control in the tube portion of the power amp, and then when it's hits air from the 4x12, you get feedback.

 

Have you messed with starting from a blank patch, add an amp model, and get the levels listenable without the screech?

 

You will want to dial in patches specific to this rig, possibly adjust the amp vs line setting on the HD, and double check the mixer settings in the HD 500.

 

Do you have any other gear you can test the same patches on? For a straight ahead power amp like that, I would guess it can be used as both a guitar amp or a PA type power amp. If you take for example, a microphone or something, run it at appropriate channel level to a mixer, then send that output to the Carvin, can you get proper vocal levels without feedback?


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#12 cruisinon2

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 04:53 PM

Well, not necessarily wrong - just good to think about it in terms of what the amp is trying to do with the sound, vs what the HD500 is doing *to* the sound.

 

In this case, if I understand what you mean - is that amp something like a Carvin TS100? In that case, I'd imagine it doesn't have an FX loop. You are in undiscovered country on this one.. I would guess there is a signal level or gain mismatch going on; not sure what is happening to be totally honest with ya.

 

If I had to guess, something is happening that is over boosting the high freqs which are going out of control in the tube portion of the power amp, and then when it's hits air from the 4x12, you get feedback.

 

Have you messed with starting from a blank patch, add an amp model, and get the levels listenable without the screech?

 

You will want to dial in patches specific to this rig, possibly adjust the amp vs line setting on the HD, and double check the mixer settings in the HD 500.

 

Do you have any other gear you can test the same patches on? For a straight ahead power amp like that, I would guess it can be used as both a guitar amp or a PA type power amp. If you take for example, a microphone or something, run it at appropriate channel level to a mixer, then send that output to the Carvin, can you get proper vocal levels without feedback?

 

Yep, it's a Carvin TS100...you know your gear!

 

I should clarify...when I said "screetch", I just meant it sounds God-awful, lol. It's not feeding back, and nothing is malfunctioning near as I can tell...I have a couple other preamp/fx units that I have used with this rig with no issues. They weren't modelers though, so I figured that the 500x is just a different animal.


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#13 stuwend

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Posted 26 February 2014 - 08:39 PM

Thanks for all input.Could someone post up some patch settings that they use a clean,rhythm and lead patch so I can see what settings are being used.Thanks  


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#14 cruisinon2

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:03 PM

Thanks for all input.Could someone post up some patch settings that they use a clean,rhythm and lead patch so I can see what settings are being used.Thanks


If you wanna go that route, browse thru the custom tones and download whatever you think might float your boat...but, be prepared to tweak things anyway, probably extensively. There simply is no way around experimenting with this thing. Just because the guy who uploaded the patch thought he had perfectly captured the "Crazy Train" sound, doesn't mean that it will sound that way with your amp and guitar. In fact, it probably won't...I'm not trying to be discouraging. The 500x is a great unit, but ready to go out of the box its not, and what works and sounds good to someone else with a different rig, guitar, and playing style could easily sound like complete crap to you. I wasted a bunch of time trying to find useful patches that someone else created...it ain't happening. You'll learn more and find tones you like faster if you build them yourself.
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#15 Brazzy

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 03:19 PM

I have the DT50 Head and DT25 Cab and get a good clean when when I use topology I, all the knobs at 12 o'clock and for the dirty tone just go to topo III or IIII. adjust the volume and drive appropriately for both the clean and dirt tone. Simple as that, this amp has good tone IMO. Oh and when I dial in the amp drive and volume I leave the guitar controls wide open. as far as the Class A/B-Class A switch and Pentode-Triode switch just try them out to vary up the tone.


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I mostly play at home  and am always having fun learning how to play guitar so when I post a reply to try and help give ideas you know where I'm coming from. Rock-On!! Oh, and if I don't respond promptly I'm probably playing guitar or my computer locked up from multitasking 'cause I'm using Gear Box, HD500 Edit, Audacity and tab filled browsers all at the same time, Hahahaaaa. Surprisingly enough my 'puter handles the load more times than not. Lastly I'm not a salesman, I'm not trying to sell anyone anything here. "Riffcasts Riffworld" "RiffRumble Entry" "Shifftie" "M.O.S.U.A Two" "Bass Catszz" "Blasted Runtime Error I" "Match 30" "The Playlist"
 

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#16 stuwend

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 09:23 PM

Hi all tried to build my own patch and had on stack power amp as I run my dt50 through 1/2 stack using pre amps,anyhow just had a plexi amp and the default settings and added a comp,reverb and delay and still sounds fizzy and hollow what I'm I doing wrong.studio/direct still sounds the best apart from the boomyness so what else can I do to make my guitar sound good. Any help will be appreciate.
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#17 radatats

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 09:29 PM

post your patch to customtone and link here so we can see what you are doing...  no way to tell from what you just told us...


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